Ineos Grenadiers

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  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,337
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    pblakeney said:

    darkhairedlord said:

    TheBigBean said:

    mididoctors said:

    Solar powered recharging is more likley accessable than hydrogen stations in the middle of nowhere where tbh . Hydrogen economy is bs and imo . Where you going to get the hydrogen from .. electrolysis from renewables ... ? Might as well just charge the car up and save a step ... Hell you could take solar panels with you for emergency (But admittedly very slow ) top up . Hydrogen doesn't store well hence why hydro carbons are such a good fuel ... Petrol is Insanely practical ..shame about the climate and all ... Hydrogen sourced from gas and oil is no solution and green wash promoted by guys like Radcliffe ... " Clean" when used by the car but really trying to promote crypto fossil fuel use . ...

    Batteries take time to charge, so anything that is in continuing use is better using hydrogen. Batteries also don't work as well with big things such as buses and trains.

    If hydrogen becomes more easily shipped, then it can be made in the Australian desert for example. Yes, it is harder to transport than LNG, but there are solutions.

    Carrying solar panels is a non starter. You'd need a lot of them.

    As ever with these discussions, I doubt anyone will change their mind.

    get shot of private cars and live closer to work. that might mean working closer to home or working from home, but the existing model is dead...
    The idea that a car is mainly used for travelling to and from work amuses me.
    I have been following that principle for the majority of my life though. 😉
    Well main or not, it's a significant portion of car use. That's why we have rush hours.
    I have an opinion on people who drive during rush hour. It is not popular. 😉
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Hopefully zoom will reduce commuting a lot even after covid
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Amazon warehouse roofed in solar panels with wireless recharging forklifts or somesuch ... Not unimaginable is it .

    Electric is not the best solutions for all or even most transport issues but it is the most flexible
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,927
    edited November 2020
    mididoctors said:

    Amazon warehouse roofed in solar panels with wireless recharging forklifts or somesuch ... Not unimaginable is it .

    It's a solution, just not the best one, because it requires charging time, so assets not in use.
    mididoctors said:


    Electric is not the best solutions for all or even most transport issues but it is the most flexible

    Quite, which is quite hydrogen has a future. Not sure why you are arguing to the contrary.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    TheBigBean said:

    mididoctors said:

    Amazon warehouse roofed in solar panels with wireless recharging forklifts or somesuch ... Not unimaginable is it .

    It's a solution, just not the best one, because it requires charging time, so assets not in use.
    mididoctors said:


    Electric is not the best solutions for all or even most transport issues but it is the most flexible

    Quite, which is quite hydrogen has a future. Not sure why you are arguing to the contrary.
    Buried trackway wireless vehicle recharging ... It is a thing . IE: constant recharging on the go .
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,927
    mididoctors said:

    TheBigBean said:

    mididoctors said:

    Amazon warehouse roofed in solar panels with wireless recharging forklifts or somesuch ... Not unimaginable is it .

    It's a solution, just not the best one, because it requires charging time, so assets not in use.
    mididoctors said:


    Electric is not the best solutions for all or even most transport issues but it is the most flexible

    Quite, which is quite hydrogen has a future. Not sure why you are arguing to the contrary.
    Buried trackway wireless vehicle recharging ... It is a thing . IE: constant recharging on the go .
    Perhaps a touch pricey to install over the entire warehouse?
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    A fully electronic warehouse is not beyond us or even undesirable. I think amazon can stretch to it in-between bezos playing with his toy rocket
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,927
    mididoctors said:

    A fully electronic warehouse is not beyond us or even undesirable. I think amazon can stretch to it in-between bezos playing with his toy rocket

    Why can't they just use hydrogen if it is cheaper and easier? It feels like you and hydrogen had a falling out.
  • brundonbianchi
    brundonbianchi Posts: 689
    TheBigBean said:

    mididoctors said:

    A fully electronic warehouse is not beyond us or even undesirable. I think amazon can stretch to it in-between bezos playing with his toy rocket

    Why can't they just use hydrogen if it is cheaper and easier? It feels like you and hydrogen had a falling out.
    Did you ever do the ‘test for Hydrogen gas’ at school? Imagine that, but a hundred times larger. Hydrogen is a pain in the backside to store safely, if you add in several tonnes of idiot guided missile to the equation, you get the idea.

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,927
    brundonbianchi said:

    TheBigBean said:

    mididoctors said:

    A fully electronic warehouse is not beyond us or even undesirable. I think amazon can stretch to it in-between bezos playing with his toy rocket

    Why can't they just use hydrogen if it is cheaper and easier? It feels like you and hydrogen had a falling out.
    Did you ever do the ‘test for Hydrogen gas’ at school? Imagine that, but a hundred times larger. Hydrogen is a pain in the backside to store safely, if you add in several tonnes of idiot guided missile to the equation, you get the idea.

    You should alert the authorities and get it banned. Clearly a case of experts knowing nothing.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    mididoctors said:

    Solar powered recharging is more likley accessable than hydrogen stations in the middle of nowhere where tbh . Hydrogen economy is bs and imo . Where you going to get the hydrogen from .. electrolysis from renewables ... ? Might as well just charge the car up and save a step ... Hell you could take solar panels with you for emergency (But admittedly very slow ) top up . Hydrogen doesn't store well hence why hydro carbons are such a good fuel ... Petrol is Insanely practical ..shame about the climate and all ... Hydrogen sourced from gas and oil is no solution and green wash promoted by guys like Radcliffe ... " Clean" when used by the car but really trying to promote crypto fossil fuel use . ...

    Batteries are hardly "good" for the environment to produce, still involves a lot of very nasty chemicals and digging a lot of big holes... And a lot of weight involved in moving them around.

    Hydrogen from methane is obviously even less green than just burning the methane (due to the energy required for steam methane reforming), unless you capture the CO2 and do something else with it. I think it is a pretty dumb idea, but you can see why all the countries and companies who've invested loads in LNG recently are interested.

    Hydrogen from water is energy intensive but if you have essentially free electricity from very cheap solar panels or the vast amount of wind we have access to, you can use the hydrogen as a store of energy.

    We looked at some projects like that but the catalysts you need for water electrolysis are very expensive - they needed to be greater than 80% utilised to be viable - so it's not quite there yet.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,927
    bobmcstuff said:

    mididoctors said:

    Solar powered recharging is more likley accessable than hydrogen stations in the middle of nowhere where tbh . Hydrogen economy is bs and imo . Where you going to get the hydrogen from .. electrolysis from renewables ... ? Might as well just charge the car up and save a step ... Hell you could take solar panels with you for emergency (But admittedly very slow ) top up . Hydrogen doesn't store well hence why hydro carbons are such a good fuel ... Petrol is Insanely practical ..shame about the climate and all ... Hydrogen sourced from gas and oil is no solution and green wash promoted by guys like Radcliffe ... " Clean" when used by the car but really trying to promote crypto fossil fuel use . ...

    Batteries are hardly "good" for the environment to produce, still involves a lot of very nasty chemicals and digging a lot of big holes... And a lot of weight involved in moving them around.

    Hydrogen from methane is obviously even less green than just burning the methane (due to the energy required for steam methane reforming), unless you capture the CO2 and do something else with it. I think it is a pretty dumb idea, but you can see why all the countries and companies who've invested loads in LNG recently are interested.

    Hydrogen from water is energy intensive but if you have essentially free electricity from very cheap solar panels or the vast amount of wind we have access to, you can use the hydrogen as a store of energy.

    We looked at some projects like that but the catalysts you need for water electrolysis are very expensive - they needed to be greater than 80% utilised to be viable - so it's not quite there yet.
    Subsidies will increase production and drive down the price of electrolysers. There is also bliue hydrogen which is ok.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,337
    TheBigBean said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    mididoctors said:

    Solar powered recharging is more likley accessable than hydrogen stations in the middle of nowhere where tbh . Hydrogen economy is bs and imo . Where you going to get the hydrogen from .. electrolysis from renewables ... ? Might as well just charge the car up and save a step ... Hell you could take solar panels with you for emergency (But admittedly very slow ) top up . Hydrogen doesn't store well hence why hydro carbons are such a good fuel ... Petrol is Insanely practical ..shame about the climate and all ... Hydrogen sourced from gas and oil is no solution and green wash promoted by guys like Radcliffe ... " Clean" when used by the car but really trying to promote crypto fossil fuel use . ...

    Batteries are hardly "good" for the environment to produce, still involves a lot of very nasty chemicals and digging a lot of big holes... And a lot of weight involved in moving them around.

    Hydrogen from methane is obviously even less green than just burning the methane (due to the energy required for steam methane reforming), unless you capture the CO2 and do something else with it. I think it is a pretty dumb idea, but you can see why all the countries and companies who've invested loads in LNG recently are interested.

    Hydrogen from water is energy intensive but if you have essentially free electricity from very cheap solar panels or the vast amount of wind we have access to, you can use the hydrogen as a store of energy.

    We looked at some projects like that but the catalysts you need for water electrolysis are very expensive - they needed to be greater than 80% utilised to be viable - so it's not quite there yet.
    Subsidies will increase production and drive down the price of electrolysers. There is also bliue hydrogen which is ok.
    Got some skin in the game?
    Seem to be pushing it quite a bit. Only curious.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    Cold fusion, in a test tube.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,927
    pblakeney said:

    TheBigBean said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    mididoctors said:

    Solar powered recharging is more likley accessable than hydrogen stations in the middle of nowhere where tbh . Hydrogen economy is bs and imo . Where you going to get the hydrogen from .. electrolysis from renewables ... ? Might as well just charge the car up and save a step ... Hell you could take solar panels with you for emergency (But admittedly very slow ) top up . Hydrogen doesn't store well hence why hydro carbons are such a good fuel ... Petrol is Insanely practical ..shame about the climate and all ... Hydrogen sourced from gas and oil is no solution and green wash promoted by guys like Radcliffe ... " Clean" when used by the car but really trying to promote crypto fossil fuel use . ...

    Batteries are hardly "good" for the environment to produce, still involves a lot of very nasty chemicals and digging a lot of big holes... And a lot of weight involved in moving them around.

    Hydrogen from methane is obviously even less green than just burning the methane (due to the energy required for steam methane reforming), unless you capture the CO2 and do something else with it. I think it is a pretty dumb idea, but you can see why all the countries and companies who've invested loads in LNG recently are interested.

    Hydrogen from water is energy intensive but if you have essentially free electricity from very cheap solar panels or the vast amount of wind we have access to, you can use the hydrogen as a store of energy.

    We looked at some projects like that but the catalysts you need for water electrolysis are very expensive - they needed to be greater than 80% utilised to be viable - so it's not quite there yet.
    Subsidies will increase production and drive down the price of electrolysers. There is also bliue hydrogen which is ok.
    Got some skin in the game?
    Seem to be pushing it quite a bit. Only curious.
    It just annoys me when people dismiss something that they know nothing about.
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    It's a throw of the dice to keep fossil fuels in the game.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,337
    TheBigBean said:

    pblakeney said:

    TheBigBean said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    mididoctors said:

    Solar powered recharging is more likley accessable than hydrogen stations in the middle of nowhere where tbh . Hydrogen economy is bs and imo . Where you going to get the hydrogen from .. electrolysis from renewables ... ? Might as well just charge the car up and save a step ... Hell you could take solar panels with you for emergency (But admittedly very slow ) top up . Hydrogen doesn't store well hence why hydro carbons are such a good fuel ... Petrol is Insanely practical ..shame about the climate and all ... Hydrogen sourced from gas and oil is no solution and green wash promoted by guys like Radcliffe ... " Clean" when used by the car but really trying to promote crypto fossil fuel use . ...

    Batteries are hardly "good" for the environment to produce, still involves a lot of very nasty chemicals and digging a lot of big holes... And a lot of weight involved in moving them around.

    Hydrogen from methane is obviously even less green than just burning the methane (due to the energy required for steam methane reforming), unless you capture the CO2 and do something else with it. I think it is a pretty dumb idea, but you can see why all the countries and companies who've invested loads in LNG recently are interested.

    Hydrogen from water is energy intensive but if you have essentially free electricity from very cheap solar panels or the vast amount of wind we have access to, you can use the hydrogen as a store of energy.

    We looked at some projects like that but the catalysts you need for water electrolysis are very expensive - they needed to be greater than 80% utilised to be viable - so it's not quite there yet.
    Subsidies will increase production and drive down the price of electrolysers. There is also bliue hydrogen which is ok.
    Got some skin in the game?
    Seem to be pushing it quite a bit. Only curious.
    It just annoys me when people dismiss something that they know nothing about.
    It is true that I know nothing about it. 😉
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    TheBigBean said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    mididoctors said:

    Solar powered recharging is more likley accessable than hydrogen stations in the middle of nowhere where tbh . Hydrogen economy is bs and imo . Where you going to get the hydrogen from .. electrolysis from renewables ... ? Might as well just charge the car up and save a step ... Hell you could take solar panels with you for emergency (But admittedly very slow ) top up . Hydrogen doesn't store well hence why hydro carbons are such a good fuel ... Petrol is Insanely practical ..shame about the climate and all ... Hydrogen sourced from gas and oil is no solution and green wash promoted by guys like Radcliffe ... " Clean" when used by the car but really trying to promote crypto fossil fuel use . ...

    Batteries are hardly "good" for the environment to produce, still involves a lot of very nasty chemicals and digging a lot of big holes... And a lot of weight involved in moving them around.

    Hydrogen from methane is obviously even less green than just burning the methane (due to the energy required for steam methane reforming), unless you capture the CO2 and do something else with it. I think it is a pretty dumb idea, but you can see why all the countries and companies who've invested loads in LNG recently are interested.

    Hydrogen from water is energy intensive but if you have essentially free electricity from very cheap solar panels or the vast amount of wind we have access to, you can use the hydrogen as a store of energy.

    We looked at some projects like that but the catalysts you need for water electrolysis are very expensive - they needed to be greater than 80% utilised to be viable - so it's not quite there yet.
    Subsidies will increase production and drive down the price of electrolysers. There is also bliue hydrogen which is ok.
    Blue hydrogen is just SMR with capture or abatement for the CO2 in place. Maybe OK as a transition to get all of the hydrogen infrastructure in place but using methane isn't really a long term solution. We've got a bad track record with CCUS but assuming it does take off properly, it would be OK as a use for all this excess LNG capacity we are likely to have. I also think there's a danger of greenwashing (due to the perception of hydrogen = green) when if it's not done properly it's actually not green at all. But that's by the by.

    I agree that getting cheaper electrolysers is the way forwards.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    darkhairedlord said:

    It's a throw of the dice to keep fossil fuels in the game.

    Not if you get the hydrogen from electrolysis...
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    pblakeney said:

    TheBigBean said:

    pblakeney said:

    TheBigBean said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    mididoctors said:

    Solar powered recharging is more likley accessable than hydrogen stations in the middle of nowhere where tbh . Hydrogen economy is bs and imo . Where you going to get the hydrogen from .. electrolysis from renewables ... ? Might as well just charge the car up and save a step ... Hell you could take solar panels with you for emergency (But admittedly very slow ) top up . Hydrogen doesn't store well hence why hydro carbons are such a good fuel ... Petrol is Insanely practical ..shame about the climate and all ... Hydrogen sourced from gas and oil is no solution and green wash promoted by guys like Radcliffe ... " Clean" when used by the car but really trying to promote crypto fossil fuel use . ...

    Batteries are hardly "good" for the environment to produce, still involves a lot of very nasty chemicals and digging a lot of big holes... And a lot of weight involved in moving them around.

    Hydrogen from methane is obviously even less green than just burning the methane (due to the energy required for steam methane reforming), unless you capture the CO2 and do something else with it. I think it is a pretty dumb idea, but you can see why all the countries and companies who've invested loads in LNG recently are interested.

    Hydrogen from water is energy intensive but if you have essentially free electricity from very cheap solar panels or the vast amount of wind we have access to, you can use the hydrogen as a store of energy.

    We looked at some projects like that but the catalysts you need for water electrolysis are very expensive - they needed to be greater than 80% utilised to be viable - so it's not quite there yet.
    Subsidies will increase production and drive down the price of electrolysers. There is also bliue hydrogen which is ok.
    Got some skin in the game?
    Seem to be pushing it quite a bit. Only curious.
    It just annoys me when people dismiss something that they know nothing about.
    It is true that I know nothing about it. 😉
    I know a bit about it, although I have no idea about bigbean's expertise. I think we probably aren't disagreeing though, I'm certainly not dismissing it.

    I hope it takes off as we are doing a lot of work around it... ;)
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,337
    bobmcstuff said:

    pblakeney said:

    TheBigBean said:

    pblakeney said:

    TheBigBean said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    mididoctors said:

    Solar powered recharging is more likley accessable than hydrogen stations in the middle of nowhere where tbh . Hydrogen economy is bs and imo . Where you going to get the hydrogen from .. electrolysis from renewables ... ? Might as well just charge the car up and save a step ... Hell you could take solar panels with you for emergency (But admittedly very slow ) top up . Hydrogen doesn't store well hence why hydro carbons are such a good fuel ... Petrol is Insanely practical ..shame about the climate and all ... Hydrogen sourced from gas and oil is no solution and green wash promoted by guys like Radcliffe ... " Clean" when used by the car but really trying to promote crypto fossil fuel use . ...

    Batteries are hardly "good" for the environment to produce, still involves a lot of very nasty chemicals and digging a lot of big holes... And a lot of weight involved in moving them around.

    Hydrogen from methane is obviously even less green than just burning the methane (due to the energy required for steam methane reforming), unless you capture the CO2 and do something else with it. I think it is a pretty dumb idea, but you can see why all the countries and companies who've invested loads in LNG recently are interested.

    Hydrogen from water is energy intensive but if you have essentially free electricity from very cheap solar panels or the vast amount of wind we have access to, you can use the hydrogen as a store of energy.

    We looked at some projects like that but the catalysts you need for water electrolysis are very expensive - they needed to be greater than 80% utilised to be viable - so it's not quite there yet.
    Subsidies will increase production and drive down the price of electrolysers. There is also bliue hydrogen which is ok.
    Got some skin in the game?
    Seem to be pushing it quite a bit. Only curious.
    It just annoys me when people dismiss something that they know nothing about.
    It is true that I know nothing about it. 😉
    I know a bit about it, although I have no idea about bigbean's expertise. I think we probably aren't disagreeing though, I'm certainly not dismissing it.

    I hope it takes off as we are doing a lot of work around it... ;)
    I think what will be, will be but the stuff coming out of Westminster is about image rather that the environment. I declare I shall be carbon neutral by 2050 and if you believe that then I have some land to sell you. 😉
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,927
    bobmcstuff said:

    TheBigBean said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    mididoctors said:

    Solar powered recharging is more likley accessable than hydrogen stations in the middle of nowhere where tbh . Hydrogen economy is bs and imo . Where you going to get the hydrogen from .. electrolysis from renewables ... ? Might as well just charge the car up and save a step ... Hell you could take solar panels with you for emergency (But admittedly very slow ) top up . Hydrogen doesn't store well hence why hydro carbons are such a good fuel ... Petrol is Insanely practical ..shame about the climate and all ... Hydrogen sourced from gas and oil is no solution and green wash promoted by guys like Radcliffe ... " Clean" when used by the car but really trying to promote crypto fossil fuel use . ...

    Batteries are hardly "good" for the environment to produce, still involves a lot of very nasty chemicals and digging a lot of big holes... And a lot of weight involved in moving them around.

    Hydrogen from methane is obviously even less green than just burning the methane (due to the energy required for steam methane reforming), unless you capture the CO2 and do something else with it. I think it is a pretty dumb idea, but you can see why all the countries and companies who've invested loads in LNG recently are interested.

    Hydrogen from water is energy intensive but if you have essentially free electricity from very cheap solar panels or the vast amount of wind we have access to, you can use the hydrogen as a store of energy.

    We looked at some projects like that but the catalysts you need for water electrolysis are very expensive - they needed to be greater than 80% utilised to be viable - so it's not quite there yet.
    Subsidies will increase production and drive down the price of electrolysers. There is also bliue hydrogen which is ok.
    Blue hydrogen is just SMR with capture or abatement for the CO2 in place. Maybe OK as a transition to get all of the hydrogen infrastructure in place but using methane isn't really a long term solution. We've got a bad track record with CCUS but assuming it does take off properly, it would be OK as a use for all this excess LNG capacity we are likely to have. I also think there's a danger of greenwashing (due to the perception of hydrogen = green) when if it's not done properly it's actually not green at all. But that's by the by.

    I agree that getting cheaper electrolysers is the way forwards.
    It's the same with electric cars. It could actually be powered by coal. It is a two part process - make things run off the grid and decarbonise the grid. Hydrogen is the same - make things run off hydrogen and decarbonise the production of hydrogen.

    It's also worth noting that carbon capture and storage needs to be made to work as part of the net zero plan is combining this with gas generators.
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    edited November 2020
    bobmcstuff said:

    darkhairedlord said:

    It's a throw of the dice to keep fossil fuels in the game.

    Not if you get the hydrogen from electrolysis...
    it is if that means you still need fossil fuels to offset the lost utility from the renewables being diverted to make hydrogen. And hydrogen only burns clean if with oxygen, not with air..
  • andyrac
    andyrac Posts: 1,198
    Electric, hydrogen, Fred Flinstone, etc
    Doesn't address the elephant in the room; too many cars making too many (often unnecessary) journeys. The amount of single person cars commuting is ridiculous, yet they moan about cyclists causing congestion.......
    All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    TheBigBean said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    TheBigBean said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    mididoctors said:

    Solar powered recharging is more likley accessable than hydrogen stations in the middle of nowhere where tbh . Hydrogen economy is bs and imo . Where you going to get the hydrogen from .. electrolysis from renewables ... ? Might as well just charge the car up and save a step ... Hell you could take solar panels with you for emergency (But admittedly very slow ) top up . Hydrogen doesn't store well hence why hydro carbons are such a good fuel ... Petrol is Insanely practical ..shame about the climate and all ... Hydrogen sourced from gas and oil is no solution and green wash promoted by guys like Radcliffe ... " Clean" when used by the car but really trying to promote crypto fossil fuel use . ...

    Batteries are hardly "good" for the environment to produce, still involves a lot of very nasty chemicals and digging a lot of big holes... And a lot of weight involved in moving them around.

    Hydrogen from methane is obviously even less green than just burning the methane (due to the energy required for steam methane reforming), unless you capture the CO2 and do something else with it. I think it is a pretty dumb idea, but you can see why all the countries and companies who've invested loads in LNG recently are interested.

    Hydrogen from water is energy intensive but if you have essentially free electricity from very cheap solar panels or the vast amount of wind we have access to, you can use the hydrogen as a store of energy.

    We looked at some projects like that but the catalysts you need for water electrolysis are very expensive - they needed to be greater than 80% utilised to be viable - so it's not quite there yet.
    Subsidies will increase production and drive down the price of electrolysers. There is also bliue hydrogen which is ok.
    Blue hydrogen is just SMR with capture or abatement for the CO2 in place. Maybe OK as a transition to get all of the hydrogen infrastructure in place but using methane isn't really a long term solution. We've got a bad track record with CCUS but assuming it does take off properly, it would be OK as a use for all this excess LNG capacity we are likely to have. I also think there's a danger of greenwashing (due to the perception of hydrogen = green) when if it's not done properly it's actually not green at all. But that's by the by.

    I agree that getting cheaper electrolysers is the way forwards.
    It's the same with electric cars. It could actually be powered by coal. It is a two part process - make things run off the grid and decarbonise the grid. Hydrogen is the same - make things run off hydrogen and decarbonise the production of hydrogen.

    It's also worth noting that carbon capture and storage needs to be made to work as part of the net zero plan is combining this with gas generators.
    I'd also like it if CCUS took off big style as the software I look after is well validated for modelling major CO2 releases... I just think it is not the right long term solution. The other problem being the governments attitude to supporting it - we were working on this before, and the government withdrew the £500m CCS fund overnight. They've now effectively reinstated it again as of last week, but that just means we are back where we were 5 years ago.

    We are doing well at decarbonising the grid at the moment. Although some of that is a bit flimsy, Drax importing boatloads of biomass from Canada and claiming it is renewable is a bit weak for me (we also have software for modelling dust explosions so I'm not suggesting they stop that either 😉).
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    andyrac said:

    Electric, hydrogen, Fred Flinstone, etc
    Doesn't address the elephant in the room; too many cars making too many (often unnecessary) journeys. The amount of single person cars commuting is ridiculous, yet they moan about cyclists causing congestion.......

    Really? I've heard lots of anti-cyclist rants as I'm sure we all have including that they get in the way and slow you down but never that they create congestion.

    Unfortunately, until such time as public transport matches the convenience of driving then individual car journeys will remain a fact of life whether that's the current ICE vehicles or individual pods powered by nuclear fusion / fairy dust.

  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Pross said:

    Really? I've heard lots of anti-cyclist rants as I'm sure we all have including that they get in the way and slow you down but never that they create congestion.

    You obviously haven't been following the LTNs or pop-up bike lanes in the news then
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,655
    bompington said:

    Pross said:

    Really? I've heard lots of anti-cyclist rants as I'm sure we all have including that they get in the way and slow you down but never that they create congestion.

    You obviously haven't been following the LTNs or pop-up bike lanes in the news then
    It's crazy. The anti-LTNs make a huge amount of noise, but they're actually a pretty small %age.
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  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    We got a bit off topic for this forum ..large part my fault ... My bad
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,655
    mididoctors said:

    We got a bit off topic for this forum ..large part my fault ... My bad

    I thought it was quite refreshing to see the traditional off-season doping arguments replaced with hydrogen V batteries, Bianchi V the world, and Dowsett V Corona.
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