Exam Grades

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Comments

  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379
    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    TheBigBean said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Must be mid 30's now with no uni debts and all the benefits.

    The debt is more psychological than anything. If you earn 50 grand, you pay 2108 quid per year, which is less than 200 quid a month.
    Without the degree, it is unlikely that you get to earn 48 grand at the same point in time, so it is god value, whichever way you want to look at it.

    Apprenticeships are great, but there aren't many around

    Not sure I agree with this. The non-graduate has 3 more years of experience working.
    The maths is sound, on average. But if you are earning 50k, personally I still think £200 a month would come in rather handy.

    I base this on the fact that £200 a month comes in handy.
    Of course... and an extra 200 would come even handier and so on... the reality is that without the degree you would earn a lot less... on average
    And also, I don't know how many prospective students is puts off anyway. Not many.

    Interestingly the additional "grad tax" isn't so much different from the increase in income tax here in Scotland, where tuition is free.

    Which is fairer and more progressive?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    First.Aspect said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    TheBigBean said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Must be mid 30's now with no uni debts and all the benefits.

    The debt is more psychological than anything. If you earn 50 grand, you pay 2108 quid per year, which is less than 200 quid a month.
    Without the degree, it is unlikely that you get to earn 48 grand at the same point in time, so it is god value, whichever way you want to look at it.

    Apprenticeships are great, but there aren't many around

    Not sure I agree with this. The non-graduate has 3 more years of experience working.
    The maths is sound, on average. But if you are earning 50k, personally I still think £200 a month would come in rather handy.

    I base this on the fact that £200 a month comes in handy.
    Of course... and an extra 200 would come even handier and so on... the reality is that without the degree you would earn a lot less... on average
    And also, I don't know how many prospective students is puts off anyway. Not many.

    Interestingly the additional "grad tax" isn't so much different from the increase in income tax here in Scotland, where tuition is free.

    Which is fairer and more progressive?
    The idea is that if you do very well, you end up repaying your loan in full, with interests in 10 years or even less. If you don't, then you were sold a product that didn't deliver the promise, so it is just fair that you only pay some of the debt... I wasn't the biggest fan of high tuition fees, but I am warming to them
    left the forum March 2023
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    TheBigBean said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Must be mid 30's now with no uni debts and all the benefits.

    The debt is more psychological than anything. If you earn 50 grand, you pay 2108 quid per year, which is less than 200 quid a month.
    Without the degree, it is unlikely that you get to earn 48 grand at the same point in time, so it is god value, whichever way you want to look at it.

    Apprenticeships are great, but there aren't many around

    Not sure I agree with this. The non-graduate has 3 more years of experience working.
    The maths is sound, on average. But if you are earning 50k, personally I still think £200 a month would come in rather handy.

    I base this on the fact that £200 a month comes in handy.
    Of course... and an extra 200 would come even handier and so on... the reality is that without the degree you would earn a lot less... on average
    I think if you are on 50K, it is an interesting sum.
    Young, free & single, happy days, it’s a wodge.

    Mortgage or deposit saving, family, non-working spouse, nursery fees, it really isn’t that much that you’d not notice £200.

    As for the earnings, how much of that is causation? Professions it clearly is causation, outside of that, it is as likely that people clever enough to go to uni do better career wise due to being intelligent.

    £25K to £50K you are paying 41% in taxes (NI, Tax and Student loan).

    That is a high tax rate on earning over £25K
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,591
    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    TheBigBean said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Must be mid 30's now with no uni debts and all the benefits.

    The debt is more psychological than anything. If you earn 50 grand, you pay 2108 quid per year, which is less than 200 quid a month.
    Without the degree, it is unlikely that you get to earn 48 grand at the same point in time, so it is god value, whichever way you want to look at it.

    Apprenticeships are great, but there aren't many around

    Not sure I agree with this. The non-graduate has 3 more years of experience working.
    The maths is sound, on average. But if you are earning 50k, personally I still think £200 a month would come in rather handy.

    I base this on the fact that £200 a month comes in handy.
    Of course... and an extra 200 would come even handier and so on... the reality is that without the degree you would earn a lot less... on average
    The original point was that through an apprenticeship you can get the degree plus the work experience and therefore the associated salary without the debt.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379
    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    TheBigBean said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Must be mid 30's now with no uni debts and all the benefits.

    The debt is more psychological than anything. If you earn 50 grand, you pay 2108 quid per year, which is less than 200 quid a month.
    Without the degree, it is unlikely that you get to earn 48 grand at the same point in time, so it is god value, whichever way you want to look at it.

    Apprenticeships are great, but there aren't many around

    Not sure I agree with this. The non-graduate has 3 more years of experience working.
    The maths is sound, on average. But if you are earning 50k, personally I still think £200 a month would come in rather handy.

    I base this on the fact that £200 a month comes in handy.
    Of course... and an extra 200 would come even handier and so on... the reality is that without the degree you would earn a lot less... on average
    And also, I don't know how many prospective students is puts off anyway. Not many.

    Interestingly the additional "grad tax" isn't so much different from the increase in income tax here in Scotland, where tuition is free.

    Which is fairer and more progressive?
    The idea is that if you do very well, you end up repaying your loan in full, with interests in 10 years or even less. If you don't, then you were sold a product that didn't deliver the promise, so it is just fair that you only pay some of the debt... I wasn't the biggest fan of high tuition fees, but I am warming to them
    Sure.

    But which is fairer? 1. Income tax into the general tax pot, from which free tuition is provided in Scotland, or 2. a specific tax on the actual people who went to uni.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    First.Aspect said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    TheBigBean said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Must be mid 30's now with no uni debts and all the benefits.

    The debt is more psychological than anything. If you earn 50 grand, you pay 2108 quid per year, which is less than 200 quid a month.
    Without the degree, it is unlikely that you get to earn 48 grand at the same point in time, so it is god value, whichever way you want to look at it.

    Apprenticeships are great, but there aren't many around

    Not sure I agree with this. The non-graduate has 3 more years of experience working.
    The maths is sound, on average. But if you are earning 50k, personally I still think £200 a month would come in rather handy.

    I base this on the fact that £200 a month comes in handy.
    Of course... and an extra 200 would come even handier and so on... the reality is that without the degree you would earn a lot less... on average
    And also, I don't know how many prospective students is puts off anyway. Not many.

    Interestingly the additional "grad tax" isn't so much different from the increase in income tax here in Scotland, where tuition is free.

    Which is fairer and more progressive?
    The idea is that if you do very well, you end up repaying your loan in full, with interests in 10 years or even less. If you don't, then you were sold a product that didn't deliver the promise, so it is just fair that you only pay some of the debt... I wasn't the biggest fan of high tuition fees, but I am warming to them
    Sure.

    But which is fairer? 1. Income tax into the general tax pot, from which free tuition is provided in Scotland, or 2. a specific tax on the actual people who went to uni.
    Dodgy logic when you start judging “fairer” tax by who uses the services.

    _
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    Pross said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    TheBigBean said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Must be mid 30's now with no uni debts and all the benefits.

    The debt is more psychological than anything. If you earn 50 grand, you pay 2108 quid per year, which is less than 200 quid a month.
    Without the degree, it is unlikely that you get to earn 48 grand at the same point in time, so it is god value, whichever way you want to look at it.

    Apprenticeships are great, but there aren't many around

    Not sure I agree with this. The non-graduate has 3 more years of experience working.
    The maths is sound, on average. But if you are earning 50k, personally I still think £200 a month would come in rather handy.

    I base this on the fact that £200 a month comes in handy.
    Of course... and an extra 200 would come even handier and so on... the reality is that without the degree you would earn a lot less... on average
    The original point was that through an apprenticeship you can get the degree plus the work experience and therefore the associated salary without the debt.
    Because the business pays the Tuition fees. No big deal for BAE, quite another for a small engineering firm.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    TheBigBean said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Must be mid 30's now with no uni debts and all the benefits.

    The debt is more psychological than anything. If you earn 50 grand, you pay 2108 quid per year, which is less than 200 quid a month.
    Without the degree, it is unlikely that you get to earn 48 grand at the same point in time, so it is god value, whichever way you want to look at it.

    Apprenticeships are great, but there aren't many around

    Not sure I agree with this. The non-graduate has 3 more years of experience working.
    The maths is sound, on average. But if you are earning 50k, personally I still think £200 a month would come in rather handy.

    I base this on the fact that £200 a month comes in handy.
    Of course... and an extra 200 would come even handier and so on... the reality is that without the degree you would earn a lot less... on average
    And also, I don't know how many prospective students is puts off anyway. Not many.

    Interestingly the additional "grad tax" isn't so much different from the increase in income tax here in Scotland, where tuition is free.

    Which is fairer and more progressive?
    The idea is that if you do very well, you end up repaying your loan in full, with interests in 10 years or even less. If you don't, then you were sold a product that didn't deliver the promise, so it is just fair that you only pay some of the debt... I wasn't the biggest fan of high tuition fees, but I am warming to them
    Sure.

    But which is fairer? 1. Income tax into the general tax pot, from which free tuition is provided in Scotland, or 2. a specific tax on the actual people who went to uni.
    Dodgy logic when you start judging “fairer” tax by who uses the services.

    Simple - don’t call university a service.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,591
    rjsterry said:

    Pross said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    TheBigBean said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Must be mid 30's now with no uni debts and all the benefits.

    The debt is more psychological than anything. If you earn 50 grand, you pay 2108 quid per year, which is less than 200 quid a month.
    Without the degree, it is unlikely that you get to earn 48 grand at the same point in time, so it is god value, whichever way you want to look at it.

    Apprenticeships are great, but there aren't many around

    Not sure I agree with this. The non-graduate has 3 more years of experience working.
    The maths is sound, on average. But if you are earning 50k, personally I still think £200 a month would come in rather handy.

    I base this on the fact that £200 a month comes in handy.
    Of course... and an extra 200 would come even handier and so on... the reality is that without the degree you would earn a lot less... on average
    The original point was that through an apprenticeship you can get the degree plus the work experience and therefore the associated salary without the debt.
    Because the business pays the Tuition fees. No big deal for BAE, quite another for a small engineering firm.
    There's all sorts of grants out there. We're looking into it at the moment.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379
    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    First.Aspect said:

    TheBigBean said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Must be mid 30's now with no uni debts and all the benefits.

    The debt is more psychological than anything. If you earn 50 grand, you pay 2108 quid per year, which is less than 200 quid a month.
    Without the degree, it is unlikely that you get to earn 48 grand at the same point in time, so it is god value, whichever way you want to look at it.

    Apprenticeships are great, but there aren't many around

    Not sure I agree with this. The non-graduate has 3 more years of experience working.
    The maths is sound, on average. But if you are earning 50k, personally I still think £200 a month would come in rather handy.

    I base this on the fact that £200 a month comes in handy.
    Of course... and an extra 200 would come even handier and so on... the reality is that without the degree you would earn a lot less... on average
    And also, I don't know how many prospective students is puts off anyway. Not many.

    Interestingly the additional "grad tax" isn't so much different from the increase in income tax here in Scotland, where tuition is free.

    Which is fairer and more progressive?
    The idea is that if you do very well, you end up repaying your loan in full, with interests in 10 years or even less. If you don't, then you were sold a product that didn't deliver the promise, so it is just fair that you only pay some of the debt... I wasn't the biggest fan of high tuition fees, but I am warming to them
    Sure.

    But which is fairer? 1. Income tax into the general tax pot, from which free tuition is provided in Scotland, or 2. a specific tax on the actual people who went to uni.
    Dodgy logic when you start judging “fairer” tax by who uses the services.

    Not everyone will understand why. It's a law of unintended consequences thing, right?
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    Just on the UNI fees thing and touching on the issue of unintended consequences...

    You either need to earn a tonne of money and pay them off quickly / have parents pay them or simply not earn a ‘good’ salary and potentially take bang on the 30 years to pay them off which would mean paying a mountain of interest.
    I haven’t done the maths but there is a salary point where your education is very expensive.

    Also on the tax front. Back to our 50K earner, if by the time they have a couple of kids, they are now earning £60k after pension deductions, they are now paying high earners child benefit at an effective rate of 10% on earnings between 50 and 60k + 42% Ni & tax + 9% student loan.
    61% tax on that 10K.

    There are some really weird tax disincentives to earning in this band.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379
    edited August 2020
    ...
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    morstar said:

    Just on the UNI fees thing and touching on the issue of unintended consequences...

    You either need to earn a tonne of money and pay them off quickly / have parents pay them or simply not earn a ‘good’ salary and potentially take bang on the 30 years to pay them off which would mean paying a mountain of interest.
    I haven’t done the maths but there is a salary point where your education is very expensive.

    Also on the tax front. Back to our 50K earner, if by the time they have a couple of kids, they are now earning £60k after pension deductions, they are now paying high earners child benefit at an effective rate of 10% on earnings between 50 and 60k + 42% Ni & tax + 9% student loan.
    61% tax on that 10K.

    There are some really weird tax disincentives to earning in this band.

    People are happy to pay 30 quid a month for a phone, another 20 or so in home entertainment, another 30 for a broadband connection... 60 to the local gym to avoid becoming obese and maybe 250 to lease a car bigger than they need... I don't see why they wouldn't want to pay 200 a month to secure their future and be able to pay for all of the above.

    There are other ways to a good salary... but not very many. The idea that a large number of students could get an apprenticeship instead is flawed. We need engineers, doctors, lawyers, bankers and whatnot, it's not that everyone can be Bob the builder. If twice as many students decided to become plumbers instead, immediately the average income of a plumber would be cut in half.
    left the forum March 2023
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    morstar said:

    Just on the UNI fees thing and touching on the issue of unintended consequences...

    You either need to earn a tonne of money and pay them off quickly / have parents pay them or simply not earn a ‘good’ salary and potentially take bang on the 30 years to pay them off which would mean paying a mountain of interest.
    I haven’t done the maths but there is a salary point where your education is very expensive.

    Also on the tax front. Back to our 50K earner, if by the time they have a couple of kids, they are now earning £60k after pension deductions, they are now paying high earners child benefit at an effective rate of 10% on earnings between 50 and 60k + 42% Ni & tax + 9% student loan.
    61% tax on that 10K.

    There are some really weird tax disincentives to earning in this band.

    In your scenario you would pay 60% before student loan.

    This is also the case between £100-125k.

    Due to our old friend Laffer I would scrap that and drop the 45% threshold to £100k

    And scrap child benefit and move to a policy of benefits to those who need them rather than by how many children or birthdays you have had.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Just on the UNI fees thing and touching on the issue of unintended consequences...

    You either need to earn a tonne of money and pay them off quickly / have parents pay them or simply not earn a ‘good’ salary and potentially take bang on the 30 years to pay them off which would mean paying a mountain of interest.
    I haven’t done the maths but there is a salary point where your education is very expensive.

    Also on the tax front. Back to our 50K earner, if by the time they have a couple of kids, they are now earning £60k after pension deductions, they are now paying high earners child benefit at an effective rate of 10% on earnings between 50 and 60k + 42% Ni & tax + 9% student loan.
    61% tax on that 10K.

    There are some really weird tax disincentives to earning in this band.

    People are happy to pay 30 quid a month for a phone, another 20 or so in home entertainment, another 30 for a broadband connection... 60 to the local gym to avoid becoming obese and maybe 250 to lease a car bigger than they need... I don't see why they wouldn't want to pay 200 a month to secure their future and be able to pay for all of the above.

    There are other ways to a good salary... but not very many. The idea that a large number of students could get an apprenticeship instead is flawed. We need engineers, doctors, lawyers, bankers and whatnot, it's not that everyone can be Bob the builder. If twice as many students decided to become plumbers instead, immediately the average income of a plumber would be cut in half.
    Doctors and lawyers need degrees, that is undisputed.
    The current lack of apprenticeships and high university fees are policy choices due to a focus on academia.
    There could be lots more apprenticeships which are very relevant to careers such as engineering.
    But you keep moving the goal posts. I’m not arguing further education is a bad thing. I do believe there are many other options and a 9% tax hike for 30 years should provide a decent return.
    Commonly, as somebody who directly sees correlation between their career and degree, you can’t imagine any other approach to getting on in life. That is why so many people do degrees in nothing in particular at great cost.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    morstar said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Just on the UNI fees thing and touching on the issue of unintended consequences...

    You either need to earn a tonne of money and pay them off quickly / have parents pay them or simply not earn a ‘good’ salary and potentially take bang on the 30 years to pay them off which would mean paying a mountain of interest.
    I haven’t done the maths but there is a salary point where your education is very expensive.

    Also on the tax front. Back to our 50K earner, if by the time they have a couple of kids, they are now earning £60k after pension deductions, they are now paying high earners child benefit at an effective rate of 10% on earnings between 50 and 60k + 42% Ni & tax + 9% student loan.
    61% tax on that 10K.

    There are some really weird tax disincentives to earning in this band.

    People are happy to pay 30 quid a month for a phone, another 20 or so in home entertainment, another 30 for a broadband connection... 60 to the local gym to avoid becoming obese and maybe 250 to lease a car bigger than they need... I don't see why they wouldn't want to pay 200 a month to secure their future and be able to pay for all of the above.

    There are other ways to a good salary... but not very many. The idea that a large number of students could get an apprenticeship instead is flawed. We need engineers, doctors, lawyers, bankers and whatnot, it's not that everyone can be Bob the builder. If twice as many students decided to become plumbers instead, immediately the average income of a plumber would be cut in half.
    Doctors and lawyers need degrees, that is undisputed.
    The current lack of apprenticeships and high university fees are policy choices due to a focus on academia.
    There could be lots more apprenticeships which are very relevant to careers such as engineering.
    But you keep moving the goal posts. I’m not arguing further education is a bad thing. I do believe there are many other options and a 9% tax hike for 30 years should provide a decent return.
    Commonly, as somebody who directly sees correlation between their career and degree, you can’t imagine any other approach to getting on in life. That is why so many people do degrees in nothing in particular at great cost.
    University is something you begin to look at when you are around 16. Then at 17 you make all the right choices and eventually you get a place when you are 18. It's a bit of a journey. If you choose your course well, you are probably going to do well. Apprenticeships are very few and the transition between spannering on the floor to designing parts on CAD to managing people is not necessarily an obvious one. You might end up spannering on the floor for the rest of your career.

    University is also something students look forward to as a once in a lifetime experience, which an apprenticeship cannot replicate. In one case you will spend 3 years among likeminded folks of your age, sharing accommodation and partying, on the other case you are going to work among older people and live at home with your parents until you have saved enough to buy a house.... debt free, but exciting? Not sure about it...
    You only live once and when you are 25 or 30 you can go back in education if you want, but it's not the same experience anymore.

    On this forum we are old and musty and think that money and houses and debts are all that matter in life, but when you are 18 you are after life experiences, you are looking for friends and maybe even love... University offers that in spades, an apprenticeship at JLR doesn't
    left the forum March 2023
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Just on the UNI fees thing and touching on the issue of unintended consequences...

    You either need to earn a tonne of money and pay them off quickly / have parents pay them or simply not earn a ‘good’ salary and potentially take bang on the 30 years to pay them off which would mean paying a mountain of interest.
    I haven’t done the maths but there is a salary point where your education is very expensive.

    Also on the tax front. Back to our 50K earner, if by the time they have a couple of kids, they are now earning £60k after pension deductions, they are now paying high earners child benefit at an effective rate of 10% on earnings between 50 and 60k + 42% Ni & tax + 9% student loan.
    61% tax on that 10K.

    There are some really weird tax disincentives to earning in this band.

    People are happy to pay 30 quid a month for a phone, another 20 or so in home entertainment, another 30 for a broadband connection... 60 to the local gym to avoid becoming obese and maybe 250 to lease a car bigger than they need... I don't see why they wouldn't want to pay 200 a month to secure their future and be able to pay for all of the above.

    There are other ways to a good salary... but not very many. The idea that a large number of students could get an apprenticeship instead is flawed. We need engineers, doctors, lawyers, bankers and whatnot, it's not that everyone can be Bob the builder. If twice as many students decided to become plumbers instead, immediately the average income of a plumber would be cut in half.
    Doctors and lawyers need degrees, that is undisputed.
    The current lack of apprenticeships and high university fees are policy choices due to a focus on academia.
    There could be lots more apprenticeships which are very relevant to careers such as engineering.
    But you keep moving the goal posts. I’m not arguing further education is a bad thing. I do believe there are many other options and a 9% tax hike for 30 years should provide a decent return.
    Commonly, as somebody who directly sees correlation between their career and degree, you can’t imagine any other approach to getting on in life. That is why so many people do degrees in nothing in particular at great cost.
    University is something you begin to look at when you are around 16. Then at 17 you make all the right choices and eventually you get a place when you are 18. It's a bit of a journey. If you choose your course well, you are probably going to do well. Apprenticeships are very few and the transition between spannering on the floor to designing parts on CAD to managing people is not necessarily an obvious one. You might end up spannering on the floor for the rest of your career.

    University is also something students look forward to as a once in a lifetime experience, which an apprenticeship cannot replicate. In one case you will spend 3 years among likeminded folks of your age, sharing accommodation and partying, on the other case you are going to work among older people and live at home with your parents until you have saved enough to buy a house.... debt free, but exciting? Not sure about it...
    You only live once and when you are 25 or 30 you can go back in education if you want, but it's not the same experience anymore.

    On this forum we are old and musty and think that money and houses and debts are all that matter in life, but when you are 18 you are after life experiences, you are looking for friends and maybe even love... University offers that in spades, an apprenticeship at JLR doesn't
    I agree with many of the positives you outline.
    But ultimately you have just made my point.
    Because that worked for you, you perceive no other life experience being equal.
    Not to mention taking quite a dismissive view of the lives of people who don’t go.
    The gym shark kid must have been on a pretty amazing journey these last 8 years.

  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379
    Personally I enjoyed by post grad time more than being an undergrad. Less pressure.

    There are other life experiences, and uni is not for everyone. But I think Ugo's point is that it is, on average, a win-win. He is right, the statistics bear this out uncontovertably (but not for grad school - my PhD has cost me more than I will ever earn back).

    Rightly or wrongly, your ultimate trajectory at least early in your career, depends on whether or not you have a degree. It is a "club" that it is helpful to be a member of and judged just a little bit if you are not.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108
    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Just on the UNI fees thing and touching on the issue of unintended consequences...

    You either need to earn a tonne of money and pay them off quickly / have parents pay them or simply not earn a ‘good’ salary and potentially take bang on the 30 years to pay them off which would mean paying a mountain of interest.
    I haven’t done the maths but there is a salary point where your education is very expensive.

    Also on the tax front. Back to our 50K earner, if by the time they have a couple of kids, they are now earning £60k after pension deductions, they are now paying high earners child benefit at an effective rate of 10% on earnings between 50 and 60k + 42% Ni & tax + 9% student loan.
    61% tax on that 10K.

    There are some really weird tax disincentives to earning in this band.

    People are happy to pay 30 quid a month for a phone, another 20 or so in home entertainment, another 30 for a broadband connection... 60 to the local gym to avoid becoming obese and maybe 250 to lease a car bigger than they need... I don't see why they wouldn't want to pay 200 a month to secure their future and be able to pay for all of the above.

    There are other ways to a good salary... but not very many. The idea that a large number of students could get an apprenticeship instead is flawed. We need engineers, doctors, lawyers, bankers and whatnot, it's not that everyone can be Bob the builder. If twice as many students decided to become plumbers instead, immediately the average income of a plumber would be cut in half.
    Doctors and lawyers need degrees, that is undisputed.
    The current lack of apprenticeships and high university fees are policy choices due to a focus on academia.
    There could be lots more apprenticeships which are very relevant to careers such as engineering.
    But you keep moving the goal posts. I’m not arguing further education is a bad thing. I do believe there are many other options and a 9% tax hike for 30 years should provide a decent return.
    Commonly, as somebody who directly sees correlation between their career and degree, you can’t imagine any other approach to getting on in life. That is why so many people do degrees in nothing in particular at great cost.
    University is something you begin to look at when you are around 16. Then at 17 you make all the right choices and eventually you get a place when you are 18. It's a bit of a journey. If you choose your course well, you are probably going to do well. Apprenticeships are very few and the transition between spannering on the floor to designing parts on CAD to managing people is not necessarily an obvious one. You might end up spannering on the floor for the rest of your career.

    University is also something students look forward to as a once in a lifetime experience, which an apprenticeship cannot replicate. In one case you will spend 3 years among likeminded folks of your age, sharing accommodation and partying, on the other case you are going to work among older people and live at home with your parents until you have saved enough to buy a house.... debt free, but exciting? Not sure about it...
    You only live once and when you are 25 or 30 you can go back in education if you want, but it's not the same experience anymore.

    On this forum we are old and musty and think that money and houses and debts are all that matter in life, but when you are 18 you are after life experiences, you are looking for friends and maybe even love... University offers that in spades, an apprenticeship at JLR doesn't

    I don't really think it's true that students are having a great time socialising whilst the rest are living some grey existence saving up to leave home and have a couple of kids. I did go to uni but most of my mates weren't students - my daughter is at uni but when she's back she's out clubbing all the time with her mates many of whom aren't at uni or at least aren't at her uni. The thing I enjoyed about education was more the subjects, reading articles, books, writing essays - the actual degree - I already had a decent social life before I went.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,591
    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    ugo.santalucia said:

    morstar said:

    Just on the UNI fees thing and touching on the issue of unintended consequences...

    You either need to earn a tonne of money and pay them off quickly / have parents pay them or simply not earn a ‘good’ salary and potentially take bang on the 30 years to pay them off which would mean paying a mountain of interest.
    I haven’t done the maths but there is a salary point where your education is very expensive.

    Also on the tax front. Back to our 50K earner, if by the time they have a couple of kids, they are now earning £60k after pension deductions, they are now paying high earners child benefit at an effective rate of 10% on earnings between 50 and 60k + 42% Ni & tax + 9% student loan.
    61% tax on that 10K.

    There are some really weird tax disincentives to earning in this band.

    People are happy to pay 30 quid a month for a phone, another 20 or so in home entertainment, another 30 for a broadband connection... 60 to the local gym to avoid becoming obese and maybe 250 to lease a car bigger than they need... I don't see why they wouldn't want to pay 200 a month to secure their future and be able to pay for all of the above.

    There are other ways to a good salary... but not very many. The idea that a large number of students could get an apprenticeship instead is flawed. We need engineers, doctors, lawyers, bankers and whatnot, it's not that everyone can be Bob the builder. If twice as many students decided to become plumbers instead, immediately the average income of a plumber would be cut in half.
    Doctors and lawyers need degrees, that is undisputed.
    The current lack of apprenticeships and high university fees are policy choices due to a focus on academia.
    There could be lots more apprenticeships which are very relevant to careers such as engineering.
    But you keep moving the goal posts. I’m not arguing further education is a bad thing. I do believe there are many other options and a 9% tax hike for 30 years should provide a decent return.
    Commonly, as somebody who directly sees correlation between their career and degree, you can’t imagine any other approach to getting on in life. That is why so many people do degrees in nothing in particular at great cost.
    Apprenticeships are very few and the transition between spannering on the floor to designing parts on CAD to managing people is not necessarily an obvious one. You might end up spannering on the floor for the rest of your career.

    Unfortunately you share a very dated view of an apprenticeship with many others. This is part of the problem. Apprenticeships these days can lead to a company putting you through academic training all the way to degree level as well as giving you practical experience and a salary.

    If you are doing an engineering apprenticeship you may well get some time 'on the tools' in the early stages but you will also get on to design elements as you gain experience and knowledge. To me that's a huge advantage over the 22 year old joining with a degree and a head full of theory and if you start at 16 you can end up with a degree within two years of your contemperies as well as that extra practical knowledge. Even 30 years ago when I did mine I spent time working on design work including CAD and more advanced 3D design software, site supervision which is invaluable in understanding how the information you produce gets used, surveying skills and quantity surveying. At the end of the 4 years I was running minor projects with minimal oversight from a team leader and overseeing graduates (older than me) when they were doing their own 6 month rotations.

    I'm now a Technical Director and I know some of those grads are in lower paid, lower grade roles. I also know others who did the same route as me a year or so either side and have also done well.

    I didn't miss out on life experiences as, believe it or not, I still had a social group who I could go out with and as I was earning money I was also able to go off and do things I wanted. I don't see why living in a house with a few people of similar age is seen as some major life experience. My daughter hated her housemate by her third year and couldn't wait to move out.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    To take the engineering sector as one example you can go to university straight from school and work your 3-5 years depending which level of degree and nation you go to. You will have a great time with your mates living the young life on £200 per month. At the end someone will pay you a fair amount of money to sort out their problems for them.

    You can also go and work for a company and do university on the side as some of my colleagues have done. They had cars and lived mainly with their parents and no debt. The still had a good time hanging out with their school mates and uni mates. Guess what we all make around the same money. It is only snobbery that looks down on the apprenticeship route.

    This is obviously a take on a mechanical engineering degree. I also went to university with a lot of "would you like fries with that" degrees such a psychology and history as if you every needed those two together unless you wanted to stand no chance of becoming either a psychologist or the very few jobs available as a historian. Good news for universities is that there is a large percentage of the population that can afford to subsidise their offspring getting the University experience they had with little thought to the benefit of the course in question.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379
    I take it you are handcuffed by whichever company you did your apprenticeship with though?

    Anyhow, that route you describe is not one that's looked down on - I did my PhD with people who were being put through school by their company.

    But I hate to tell you, for a lot of people who have both studied more or less without work and then worked or worked/studied, we know deep down that being poor and carefree aged about 20 is completely blissfully fantastic and can't be replicated at any other life stage. Even by the time I was 25 and still trying to get my doctorate the worry about passing time was creeping in.

    And there is something peculiarly immersive about being a full time student that you don't know you are missing unless you've had it. No matter how much studying you have to do (and I had a LOT) you just have *so much time*.

    That is why people bang on about their university years, even though for most people it is at most 4 years (for me, much, much longer. :-( ).
  • johngti
    johngti Posts: 2,508
    I left for uni at 18 and never looked back/lived at parents again. Made the mistake of getting married in my third year but I was foolish! First in my entire family to get a-levels (back when they meant something in 1987 😉) and go to university.

    My eldest daughter hated the experience of living in halls. People stealing her food/using her stuff played on her anxieties and she very nearly had a full on break down. She moved in with me in her second year, graduated and spent a few years on zero hours contracts. She’s starting teacher training in September so we’ve an outside chance of her moving out before she hits 30!

    My youngest daughter was bullied at school, became a school refuser (they lived with their mum in Cardiff so I didn’t find out in time to help - not a good breakup!). She took two GCSEs at 16 and got A* in both then bounced around between Cardiff FE colleges getting some more qualifications. She ended up at Aberystwyth uni doing zoology, still has anxiety and other mental heath issues so failed her first year twice but has got through on the third attempt. She’s now 24 so behind the curve but fair play for sticking with it.

    My eldest son got into an outstanding grammar school. Just starting year 8, wants to be an engineer of some description but we’ll see

    And my youngest son just wishes school would disappear so he can focus on fortnite.

    I’ve taken advantage of the government’s doctoral loans to see if I can finally get to be Dr Johngti at the age of 50-something.

    I guess my point is even though I’m a teacher, head of a big maths department, have a decent degree, a masters and currently doing a doctorate, all of my kids have completely different aims and view education in a massively different way to me. There’s no one size fits all approach here.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379
    Being Dr Aspect isn't all that. Can be helpful when complaining about customer services, or dealing with the council, but people hate you when they realise the person they've been apologising to is not a "real doctor".

    One of my colleagues also got a gate re-opened when late for a flight. He spent the entire time hoping that no one got sick on the flight.
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,568
    edited August 2020
    ugo.santalucia said:



    University is also something students look forward to as a once in a lifetime experience, which an apprenticeship cannot replicate. In one case you will spend 3 years among likeminded folks of your age, sharing accommodation and partying, on the other case you are going to work among older people and live at home with your parents until you have saved enough to buy a house.... debt free, but exciting? Not sure about it...
    You only live once and when you are 25 or 30 you can go back in education if you want, but it's not the same experience anymore.

    I think this could read "University is something that is marketed as being a once in a lifetime experience, which an apprenticeship cannot replicate"

    As someone mentioned up thread (and as I experienced personally) it wasn't like I didn't party, meet people, go places, do stuff etc etc when I was in my late teens and twenties . . . I had enough money to do it more (and arguably better?) than anyone not earning for whatever reason.

    How exciting is moving back in with Mum and Dad when all of that University "experience" is over and you're still skint? The way I see it is that too many focus on their entitlement to the 3 year experience of University rather than evaluating the real world pros and cons and this affects their judgement. Not surprising in some cases when the target group is 17 or 18 and University is being sold as a kind of 18-30 holiday but it is unequivocally hugely beneficial to society and the individual if properly considered and executed. I would argue that the perentage of the latter is probably abou the same as it was when grants were freely available.
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379
    laurentian said:

    ugo.santalucia said:



    University is also something students look forward to as a once in a lifetime experience, which an apprenticeship cannot replicate. In one case you will spend 3 years among likeminded folks of your age, sharing accommodation and partying, on the other case you are going to work among older people and live at home with your parents until you have saved enough to buy a house.... debt free, but exciting? Not sure about it...
    You only live once and when you are 25 or 30 you can go back in education if you want, but it's not the same experience anymore.

    I think this could read "University is something that is marketed as being a once in a lifetime experience, which an apprenticeship cannot replicate"

    As someone mentioned up thread (and as I experienced personally) it wasn't like I didn't party, meet people, go places, do stuff etc etc when I was in my late teens and twenties . . . I had enough money to do it more (and arguably better?) than anyone not earning for whatever reason.

    How exciting is moving back in with Mum and Dad when all of that University "experience" is over and you're still skint? The way I see it is that too many focus on their entitlement to the 3 year experience of University rather than evaluating the real world pros and cons.
    Don't feel bad, but it really is a once in a lifetime experience that nothing can replace.

    For a lot of people anyway.
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,568
    edited August 2020
    Post duplicated
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    First.Aspect said:

    I take it you are handcuffed by whichever company you did your apprenticeship with though?

    Anyhow, that route you describe is not one that's looked down on - I did my PhD with people who were being put through school by their company.

    But I hate to tell you, for a lot of people who have both studied more or less without work and then worked or worked/studied, we know deep down that being poor and carefree aged about 20 is completely blissfully fantastic and can't be replicated at any other life stage. Even by the time I was 25 and still trying to get my doctorate the worry about passing time was creeping in.

    And there is something peculiarly immersive about being a full time student that you don't know you are missing unless you've had it. No matter how much studying you have to do (and I had a LOT) you just have *so much time*.

    That is why people bang on about their university years, even though for most people it is at most 4 years (for me, much, much longer. :-( ).

    You are not tied to the company as you can move companies and a lot of engineering companies given the timescales will take on those from other companies as the low wage plus uni fees is pretty balanced out. I would differ that in middle class circles there is a stigma they associate with apprenticeships which with engineering is miss placed.

    There are other apprenticeships out there where the government allows you to take on a receptionist doing some form of business admin qualification a college and then at the end of the two years you sack them and get another one so that you can continue paying really low wages and offsetting the fees against the government contribution. This is actually a scandal that I have witnessed 3 times in 6 years working at the same engineering company and this should be focused on.
  • johngti
    johngti Posts: 2,508
    First.Aspect said:

    Being Dr Aspect isn't all that. Can be helpful when complaining about customer services, or dealing with the council, but people hate you when they realise the person they've been apologising to is not a "real doctor".

    Oh I know that. It’s just always something I fancied doing If I’d not got a Desmond in my first degree I’d have done it straight from graduating - had a place lined up and everything.

    It’ll cost me about £150-160 a month when the loan payments kick in but since I effectively avoided a massive debt with my degree I can live with it.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    edited August 2020
    Engineering engineering engineering... where are all these apprenticeships for things which are not engineering?
    Who is doing an apprenticeship at the BBC with a view to become a reporter these days?
    Any apprenticeship in Chemistry or Biology jobs? The goalpost has been moved... now they hire graduates with a view to pay for their postgrad
    left the forum March 2023

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