Exam Grades

surrey_commuter

DM suggesting that the U-turn took so long because Boris is on holiday

why are they allowing students to have the higher of the teacher or computer predicted grades?

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

DM suggesting that the U-turn took so long because Boris is on holiday

why are they allowing students to have the higher of the teacher or computer predicted grades?

Giving everyone an A* in every subject spreads the love and clearly has no downside.

briantrumpet

bompington said:

coopster_the_1st said:

So you are not really that "high risk" then?

Or after 7 days of living in the real world less Coronaphobic? And also less of a drama queen?

Really struggling with your non-sequiturs here.

The 30 hours work I am referring to (heck, I'm probably exaggerating a bit, it might only be 25) have almost all been done at home, i.e. in my own time (half of it, like half of all the development work we do, while on holiday, because hey, teachers hardly work at all and get such long holidays!)

As for real world, I have, for example, experienced life on a COVID ward - vicariously, I grant, through being married to a doctor - but that includes things like watching people die in front of you, and having to telephone relatives to inform them of death: for which the thanks has included, among other things, vicious abuse and official threats of legal action.
I expect Dr Bomp knows a bit more about the real world than you do.

As for me, there's the entertaining business of teaching while wearing a mask all day (I take it off when on my own in my classroom, which happens for about an hour a day on average).
Not to mention all the time-consuming and stressful rituals we have to go through - sanitising, wiping, not touching this, staying away from that...
Add to this the fun of explaining the rules to kids: I don't make them up but I'm part of an organisation, so I have to enforce them.
Oh, of course there's also the much-discussed issue of remote software - you'll be glad to know that, after a lot of effort, we have got agreement to get something (free) installed. More work to implement that then, because there's zip chance of the council IT department (who are in a huff about the whole thing) lifting a finger to help.

I don't claim to have experienced everything there is to experience in the real world, but I expect I've experienced enough to distiguish it from keyboard warrior fantasy.

But then your posts don't really give the impression that you have ever spent 7 days in the real world.

I think you wasted your time with typing the word 'Listen' earlier. You've been drawn in... resist the temptation to think that reason/logic will have an effect.

morstar

surrey_commuter said:

DM suggesting that the U-turn took so long because Boris is on holiday

why are they allowing students to have the higher of the teacher or computer predicted grades?

I pointed this out earlier, some grades should be downgraded but that would then bring its own problems.
I.e. you should have got a B by your teachers assessment but the computer has now given you an A.
Statistically it is going to hit a much smaller group but they have already secured places based on those grades.
There is also the factor of who this would affect. Public schools.

First.Aspect

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

I think it's interesting that so much weight is put on the grade. In my field, because you need to show examples of your work in any job interview scenario, there is much less reliance on the grade, because much stronger evidence of ability is right there in front of you.

How do you evaluate graduates?

CV + samples of work for selection for interview, then interview. Degree grade is one line in the CV and the samples of work tell you far more about the candidate's ability. At the interview you can then confirm that the work really is their work and that they have a good understanding of what they have produced.

How can they show you examples of they are trying to get their first job, that's what I'm asking.

They will have produced work for their degree, so everyone should have something to show. Obviously if a candidate has managed to do some work experience, then they can show that as well. An architecture exam consists of pinning your work on the wall and having it critiqued/ripped to shreds by examiners in front of your peers. It's a good system and one I would recommend for other subjects. There is no hiding if you haven't done the work. There are written exams and a dissertation as well but these form a smaller part of the overall assessment.

Got it. I can see that would work for that type of discipline, because there is a direct correlation between the degree subject and the profession. Scientists can show their final projects, any publications, the thesis. And the graduate degrees include a viva. So that works for postdocs and R&D roles.

But what about graduates from finger painting degrees, applying to unrelated professions. For that matter, my work? We train on the job but need to be capable of a particular way of thinking to do the job at all. Our best guide is their academic record, because we know from experience that anyone who wasn't pretty much straight A's and a 1st or 2:1 simply won't make it. We might spot someone with bad A levels and a really good degree and look past it, but to be honest they'd need to really impress in the interview process to assuage doubts.

Sorry, can't remember what field you are in, but yes, it's a bit easier for more 'vocational' degrees. I do think that other subjects could learn from it, though. If you can present a piece of original work to a panel of examiners you can do the same thing to a potential employer. I'm not sure it matters what the subject is so long as you can present it in a way that interests, demonstrates some critical thought, shows initiative and any other skills you think the examiner/employer would value.

I always found "tell me about your final year project" an excellent interview question for graduates. Really tests whether they can explain something complicated to someone who knows nothing about the subject.

Depends what the job is but sure.

I'm trying to think of a graduate level job where an ability to communicate complex ideas to the uninformed isn't useful.

It can be so at all levels - I still find it very useful given my line of work (and it has also come in rather handy for me in some tax related debates on this forum )

MP? Explaining anything more complex than three word slogans doesn't seem at all useful.

not a grad level job

Have a look at some of the latest intake. SNP in particular. Having graduates would be a step up.

TheBigBean

TheBigBean said:

tailwindhome said:

All students in England to get the teacher assessed grades

Universties are going to be annoyed.

Williamson to the rescue. Cap on places lifted. No fines for going over the limits.

Everyone is a winner.

First.Aspect

TheBigBean said:

TheBigBean said:

tailwindhome said:

All students in England to get the teacher assessed grades

Universties are going to be annoyed.

Williamson to the rescue. Cap on places lifted. No fines for going over the limits.

Everyone is a winner.

Universities need the money.

They'll be two to a bed by midnight of day 2 of Freshers week anyway, so space wont be an issue.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean said:

TheBigBean said:

tailwindhome said:

All students in England to get the teacher assessed grades

Universties are going to be annoyed.

Williamson to the rescue. Cap on places lifted. No fines for going over the limits.

Everyone is a winner.

Keep the red flag flying

Stevo_666

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

I think it's interesting that so much weight is put on the grade. In my field, because you need to show examples of your work in any job interview scenario, there is much less reliance on the grade, because much stronger evidence of ability is right there in front of you.

How do you evaluate graduates?

CV + samples of work for selection for interview, then interview. Degree grade is one line in the CV and the samples of work tell you far more about the candidate's ability. At the interview you can then confirm that the work really is their work and that they have a good understanding of what they have produced.

How can they show you examples of they are trying to get their first job, that's what I'm asking.

They will have produced work for their degree, so everyone should have something to show. Obviously if a candidate has managed to do some work experience, then they can show that as well. An architecture exam consists of pinning your work on the wall and having it critiqued/ripped to shreds by examiners in front of your peers. It's a good system and one I would recommend for other subjects. There is no hiding if you haven't done the work. There are written exams and a dissertation as well but these form a smaller part of the overall assessment.

Got it. I can see that would work for that type of discipline, because there is a direct correlation between the degree subject and the profession. Scientists can show their final projects, any publications, the thesis. And the graduate degrees include a viva. So that works for postdocs and R&D roles.

But what about graduates from finger painting degrees, applying to unrelated professions. For that matter, my work? We train on the job but need to be capable of a particular way of thinking to do the job at all. Our best guide is their academic record, because we know from experience that anyone who wasn't pretty much straight A's and a 1st or 2:1 simply won't make it. We might spot someone with bad A levels and a really good degree and look past it, but to be honest they'd need to really impress in the interview process to assuage doubts.

Sorry, can't remember what field you are in, but yes, it's a bit easier for more 'vocational' degrees. I do think that other subjects could learn from it, though. If you can present a piece of original work to a panel of examiners you can do the same thing to a potential employer. I'm not sure it matters what the subject is so long as you can present it in a way that interests, demonstrates some critical thought, shows initiative and any other skills you think the examiner/employer would value.

I always found "tell me about your final year project" an excellent interview question for graduates. Really tests whether they can explain something complicated to someone who knows nothing about the subject.

Depends what the job is but sure.

I'm trying to think of a graduate level job where an ability to communicate complex ideas to the uninformed isn't useful.

It can be so at all levels - I still find it very useful given my line of work (and it has also come in rather handy for me in some tax related debates on this forum )

MP? Explaining anything more complex than three word slogans doesn't seem at all useful.

There was a reference to it in my post above. The main bit anyway.

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

TheBigBean said:

tailwindhome said:

All students in England to get the teacher assessed grades

Universties are going to be annoyed.

Williamson to the rescue. Cap on places lifted. No fines for going over the limits.

Everyone is a winner.

Keep the red flag flying

Still a crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/17/not-all-uk-students-will-get-first-choice-place-universities-warn

Stevo_666

TheBigBean said:

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

TheBigBean said:

tailwindhome said:

All students in England to get the teacher assessed grades

Universties are going to be annoyed.

Williamson to the rescue. Cap on places lifted. No fines for going over the limits.

Everyone is a winner.

Keep the red flag flying

Still a crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/17/not-all-uk-students-will-get-first-choice-place-universities-warn

In which years have all UK students got their first choice places?

DeVlaeminck

Re. Teachers predictions - my eldest took sociology A level in a year and was predicted a B - she got an A*.

GCSEs my son was predicted 556 in Chem/phys/maths and got 778.

Those are big enough disparities for me to think one issue not being addressed in all this is what do students do who decide they want to take their exms if they disagree with whatever they are given. A "retake" in October when 8 weeks out they still don't have a final result and haven't been in school for 5 months and probably never finished the syllabus anyway is not fair.

My youngest daughter has just been given A*AB but really needs A*AA. Who knows now maybe she will get that she doesn't know. I was talking to one of my football team that's missed out on a place at Newcastle Uni - although maybe today she hasn't who knows probably not her. It really is a complete farce.

First.Aspect

When I were lad, A* didn't exist and an A were a B.

rick_chasey

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1295420050715947009?s=21

veronese68

To show what slackers the teaching profession are my daughter has just received her new results, fancy working beyond 10 at night in the holiday season.
Thankfully in her case both sets of results have been more than good enough, I still think it's a farce of course.

bompington

coopster_the_1st said:

bompington said:

coopster_the_1st said:

So you are not really that "high risk" then?

Or after 7 days of living in the real world less Coronaphobic? And also less of a drama queen?

Really struggling with your non-sequiturs here.

The 30 hours work I am referring to (heck, I'm probably exaggerating a bit, it might only be 25) have almost all been done at home, i.e. in my own time (half of it, like half of all the development work we do, while on holiday, because hey, teachers hardly work at all and get such long holidays!)

As for real world, I have, for example, experienced life on a COVID ward - vicariously, I grant, through being married to a doctor - but that includes things like watching people die in front of you, and having to telephone relatives to inform them of death: for which the thanks has included, among other things, vicious abuse and official threats of legal action.
I expect Dr Bomp knows a bit more about the real world than you do.

As for me, there's the entertaining business of teaching while wearing a mask all day (I take it off when on my own in my classroom, which happens for about an hour a day on average).
Not to mention all the time-consuming and stressful rituals we have to go through - sanitising, wiping, not touching this, staying away from that...
Add to this the fun of explaining the rules to kids: I don't make them up but I'm part of an organisation, so I have to enforce them.
Oh, of course there's also the much-discussed issue of remote software - you'll be glad to know that, after a lot of effort, we have got agreement to get something (free) installed. More work to implement that then, because there's zip chance of the council IT department (who are in a huff about the whole thing) lifting a finger to help.

I don't claim to have experienced everything there is to experience in the real world, but I expect I've experienced enough to distiguish it from keyboard warrior fantasy.

But then your posts don't really give the impression that you have ever spent 7 days in the real world.

All that rubbish you list you have to follow is because the Coronaphobics have taken over the asylum. And on masks, stupid idea but you know my position on them so no sympathy from me!

If the Council IT department won't help, do your own thing that best solves your remote access issue. They won't have time to check up on you and probably not the knowledge to know anyway based on my experience of various councils (the WFH'ers will have them busy for months).

On remote admin:
Install RDPMan (RDP Connection Manager) on your machine(MS free software download). Allow Remote desktop to the student machines for your account in Local Security Policy. Create connections to the student machines via Console. You can then have view of all connected machines in one window and see what every student is doing.
- Install free pointless software so that Council IT feel like they have won

Job done and you will be much more productive

You really are incapable of listening, understanding and learning.

tailwindhome

These people were going to solve the Irish Border issue with apps, algorithms, blockchain and whatnot.

rick_chasey

tailwindhome said:

These people were going to solve the Irish Border issue with apps, algorithms, blockchain and whatnot.

In fairness a lot of people said that was a f@cking joke then too.

orraloon

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

I think it's interesting that so much weight is put on the grade. In my field, because you need to show examples of your work in any job interview scenario, there is much less reliance on the grade, because much stronger evidence of ability is right there in front of you.

How do you evaluate graduates?

CV + samples of work for selection for interview, then interview. Degree grade is one line in the CV and the samples of work tell you far more about the candidate's ability. At the interview you can then confirm that the work really is their work and that they have a good understanding of what they have produced.

How can they show you examples of they are trying to get their first job, that's what I'm asking.

They will have produced work for their degree, so everyone should have something to show. Obviously if a candidate has managed to do some work experience, then they can show that as well. An architecture exam consists of pinning your work on the wall and having it critiqued/ripped to shreds by examiners in front of your peers. It's a good system and one I would recommend for other subjects. There is no hiding if you haven't done the work. There are written exams and a dissertation as well but these form a smaller part of the overall assessment.

Got it. I can see that would work for that type of discipline, because there is a direct correlation between the degree subject and the profession. Scientists can show their final projects, any publications, the thesis. And the graduate degrees include a viva. So that works for postdocs and R&D roles.

But what about graduates from finger painting degrees, applying to unrelated professions. For that matter, my work? We train on the job but need to be capable of a particular way of thinking to do the job at all. Our best guide is their academic record, because we know from experience that anyone who wasn't pretty much straight A's and a 1st or 2:1 simply won't make it. We might spot someone with bad A levels and a really good degree and look past it, but to be honest they'd need to really impress in the interview process to assuage doubts.

Sorry, can't remember what field you are in, but yes, it's a bit easier for more 'vocational' degrees. I do think that other subjects could learn from it, though. If you can present a piece of original work to a panel of examiners you can do the same thing to a potential employer. I'm not sure it matters what the subject is so long as you can present it in a way that interests, demonstrates some critical thought, shows initiative and any other skills you think the examiner/employer would value.

I always found "tell me about your final year project" an excellent interview question for graduates. Really tests whether they can explain something complicated to someone who knows nothing about the subject.

Depends what the job is but sure.

I'm trying to think of a graduate level job where an ability to communicate complex ideas to the uninformed isn't useful.

It can be so at all levels - I still find it very useful given my line of work (and it has also come in rather handy for me in some tax related debates on this forum )

MP? Explaining anything more complex than three word slogans doesn't seem at all useful.

Here's one for them:

Bluster
Backtrack
Blame someone else

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

TheBigBean said:

tailwindhome said:

All students in England to get the teacher assessed grades

Universties are going to be annoyed.

Williamson to the rescue. Cap on places lifted. No fines for going over the limits.

Everyone is a winner.

Keep the red flag flying

Still a crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/17/not-all-uk-students-will-get-first-choice-place-universities-warn

In which years have all UK students got their first choice places?

Every year a bunch of people don't do as well as they should in their exams.

However, to randomly assign who has "done badly" entirely by chance is just stupid soviet logic.

DeVlaeminck

It's already been said but why the hell was results day left as mid August.

Even if the furore over the algorithm wasn't predicted (hard to believe) it would surely have been beneficial for students looki g to find employment, wanting to retake, going to uni etc to be able to make these plans with say another month's notice.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I'm sure I wasn't the only one that was saying this months ago. However I still don't see why years 10 and 12 couldn't have gone back to achool earlier and these exams couldn't have been rescheduled for August and perhaps something like the current system used for a tiny minority for whom that wouldn't be possible (say you moved abroad in July or similar).

TheBigBean

DeVlaeminck said:

It's already been said but why the hell was results day left as mid August.

Even if the furore over the algorithm wasn't predicted (hard to believe) it would surely have been beneficial for students looki g to find employment, wanting to retake, going to uni etc to be able to make these plans with say another month's notice.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I'm sure I wasn't the only one that was saying this months ago. However I still don't see why years 10 and 12 couldn't have gone back to achool earlier and these exams couldn't have been rescheduled for August and perhaps something like the current system used for a tiny minority for whom that wouldn't be possible (say you moved abroad in July or similar).

In an ideal world, they would have delayed the start of the university year and finished all the exams. I suspect the problem is that it would have required teachers and lecturers to work outside of agreed times.

rick_chasey

It doesn't give you confidence they know how to handle a no-deal Brexit well either tbf.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

It doesn't give you confidence they know how to handle a piss up in brewery well either tbf.

FTFY. Hope you don't mind. 😉

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

TheBigBean said:

tailwindhome said:

All students in England to get the teacher assessed grades

Universties are going to be annoyed.

Williamson to the rescue. Cap on places lifted. No fines for going over the limits.

Everyone is a winner.

Keep the red flag flying

Still a crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/17/not-all-uk-students-will-get-first-choice-place-universities-warn

In which years have all UK students got their first choice places?

Every year a bunch of people don't do as well as they should in their exams.

However, to randomly assign who has "done badly" entirely by chance is just stupid soviet logic.

Well sounds like you have the answer as its now based on teachers predicted grades. Which I assume you are OK with - or did you have a better idea?

Stevo_666

veronese68 said:

To show what slackers the teaching profession are my daughter has just received her new results, fancy working beyond 10 at night in the holiday season.
Thankfully in her case both sets of results have been more than good enough, I still think it's a farce of course.

If those new grades are the ones that go on the certificate, worth having for pride if nothing else. That's what we're doing as it gets her one grade higher in a subject, although like you doesn't affect the end result as she has the offer confirmed from her first choice.

DeVlaeminck

Yes my daughter has been told this morning her B is being bumped up to an A - which although she hasn't applied to uni does give her the required grades for the courses she is looking at for next year - assuming that they don't change and the unis will look at a 2020 "A" as an A.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

TheBigBean said:

tailwindhome said:

All students in England to get the teacher assessed grades

Universties are going to be annoyed.

Williamson to the rescue. Cap on places lifted. No fines for going over the limits.

Everyone is a winner.

Keep the red flag flying

Still a crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/17/not-all-uk-students-will-get-first-choice-place-universities-warn

In which years have all UK students got their first choice places?

Every year a bunch of people don't do as well as they should in their exams.

However, to randomly assign who has "done badly" entirely by chance is just stupid soviet logic.

Well sounds like you have the answer as its now based on teachers predicted grades. Which I assume you are OK with - or did you have a better idea?

Yeah I did. Posted it a while back. Up to you to find it.

Stevo_666

DeVlaeminck said:

Yes my daughter has been told this morning her B is being bumped up to an A - which although she hasn't applied to uni does give her the required grades for the courses she is looking at for next year - assuming that they don't change and the unis will look at a 2020 "A" as an A.

DeV, your daughter wants to be a vet IIRC? PM me if you want any info as we have just been through the process and so mine is off to Liverpool to study veterinary.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

TheBigBean said:

tailwindhome said:

All students in England to get the teacher assessed grades

Universties are going to be annoyed.

Williamson to the rescue. Cap on places lifted. No fines for going over the limits.

Everyone is a winner.

Keep the red flag flying

Still a crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/17/not-all-uk-students-will-get-first-choice-place-universities-warn

In which years have all UK students got their first choice places?

Every year a bunch of people don't do as well as they should in their exams.

However, to randomly assign who has "done badly" entirely by chance is just stupid soviet logic.

Well sounds like you have the answer as its now based on teachers predicted grades. Which I assume you are OK with - or did you have a better idea?

Yeah I did. Posted it a while back. Up to you to find it.

Ill take your word for it.