Big Trouble with not so Little China..🇭🇰💛 / 🇨🇳😡

ballysmate

pinno said:

Shock news: Bally reads loony left propaganda!

Sun Tzu.

ballysmate

The real shocker is that people are shocked that leaders of states who don't give a fcuk about their own people, should be expected to give a fcuk about people thousands of miles away.

rjsterry

ballysmate said:

The real shocker is that people are shocked that leaders of states who don't give a fcuk about their own people, should be expected to give a fcuk about people thousands of miles away.

Not so much this as the political gymnastics involved in internationally supporting religious persecution in one country and domestically insisting on the strongest possible penalties for even the mildest criticism of that same religion.

TheBigBean

It wouldn't surprise me if Central Asian muslims were not counted as real ones by some.

The cultural differences across the Wakhan valley are fascinating.

morstar

But you can’t be an authoritarian leader and actually believe in gospels.
The pursuit of power trumps religion. That religion can be a useful vehicle to consolidate your power is merely useful but the religions values shouldn’t stand in the way of your acquisition of power.

ballysmate

rjsterry said:

ballysmate said:

The real shocker is that people are shocked that leaders of states who don't give a fcuk about their own people, should be expected to give a fcuk about people thousands of miles away.

Not so much this as the political gymnastics involved in internationally supporting religious persecution in one country and domestically insisting on the strongest possible penalties for even the mildest criticism of that same religion.

Yes there are apparent political gymnastics but do you honestly believe that the leadership of the list of countries you referenced give a toss about the lives of Muslims anywhere?

The Guardian article:-

It may be a cheap point but it remains true that if a western country were to display one-tenth, one-hundredth or one-thousandth of the brutality that China is inflicting on Muslims, the global left would be burning with outrage.

There is political mileage in agitating the left to support any grievance, real or imagined, in the west, but none in trying to agitate the Chinese, because they don't care.

Stevo_666

ballysmate said:

rjsterry said:

ballysmate said:

The real shocker is that people are shocked that leaders of states who don't give a fcuk about their own people, should be expected to give a fcuk about people thousands of miles away.

Not so much this as the political gymnastics involved in internationally supporting religious persecution in one country and domestically insisting on the strongest possible penalties for even the mildest criticism of that same religion.

Yes there are apparent political gymnastics but do you honestly believe that the leadership of the list of countries you referenced give a toss about the lives of Muslims anywhere?

The Guardian article:-

It may be a cheap point but it remains true that if a western country were to display one-tenth, one-hundredth or one-thousandth of the brutality that China is inflicting on Muslims, the global left would be burning with outrage.

There is political mileage in agitating the left to support any grievance, real or imagined, in the west, but none in trying to agitate the Chinese, because they don't care.

You beat me to it Bally. I was going to suggest that some of those who have been intent on protesting so vigorously here in the UK about injustices travel to China and do the same there.

pinno

It's not that they don't care, it's that China is contributing millions in investment abroad and those countries can't say boo to them for fear of losing investment.

'In the pay of Pompeii' and all that.

Now, if say Iran were to have sanctions removed...
But then we need a moderate, level headed President in the Whitehouse.
That list is populated by nations (generally) that are unsympathetic to the US. Odd, isn't it?

ballysmate

Ok then, they can afford not to care.

orraloon

The Economist's latest podcast released via Economist Radio examines the Uighur situation. This from the strapline: "Unparalleled surveillance, forced labour, even allegations of ethnic cleansing: atrocities in Xinjiang province carry on. Why are governments and businesses so loth to protest? " I wonder why?

rjsterry

ballysmate said:

rjsterry said:

ballysmate said:

The real shocker is that people are shocked that leaders of states who don't give a fcuk about their own people, should be expected to give a fcuk about people thousands of miles away.

Not so much this as the political gymnastics involved in internationally supporting religious persecution in one country and domestically insisting on the strongest possible penalties for even the mildest criticism of that same religion.

Yes there are apparent political gymnastics but do you honestly believe that the leadership of the list of countries you referenced give a toss about the lives of Muslims anywhere?

The Guardian article:-

It may be a cheap point but it remains true that if a western country were to display one-tenth, one-hundredth or one-thousandth of the brutality that China is inflicting on Muslims, the global left would be burning with outrage.

There is political mileage in agitating the left to support any grievance, real or imagined, in the west, but none in trying to agitate the Chinese, because they don't care.

Just bewildered that you think this has anything to do with left and right.

The idea that there is such a unified thing as "the global left" is, I would suggest, just as nonsensical as suggesting there is a global right.

Anyway, back to the point. Imagine if the Vatican had written a letter, backed up by Poland, and let's say, Brazil congratulating Pakistan on how well it was handling the numerous cases of Christians being murdered and persecuted.

ballysmate

rjsterry said:

ballysmate said:

rjsterry said:

ballysmate said:

The real shocker is that people are shocked that leaders of states who don't give a fcuk about their own people, should be expected to give a fcuk about people thousands of miles away.

Not so much this as the political gymnastics involved in internationally supporting religious persecution in one country and domestically insisting on the strongest possible penalties for even the mildest criticism of that same religion.

Yes there are apparent political gymnastics but do you honestly believe that the leadership of the list of countries you referenced give a toss about the lives of Muslims anywhere?

The Guardian article:-

It may be a cheap point but it remains true that if a western country were to display one-tenth, one-hundredth or one-thousandth of the brutality that China is inflicting on Muslims, the global left would be burning with outrage.

There is political mileage in agitating the left to support any grievance, real or imagined, in the west, but none in trying to agitate the Chinese, because they don't care.

Just bewildered that you think this has anything to do with left and right.

The idea that there is such a unified thing as "the global left" is, I would suggest, just as nonsensical as suggesting there is a global right.

Anyway, back to the point. Imagine if the Vatican had written a letter, backed up by Poland, and let's say, Brazil congratulating Pakistan on how well it was handling the numerous cases of Christians being murdered and persecuted.

Tbh I'm just bewildered that you think. Read again what I wrote.

When any of these Muslim states have a grievance concerning any perceived injustice, there is never any shortage of agitators in the west, invariably on the left, who engage in a bit of self flagellation. The countries on your list can make use of that.
If they highlight an injustice in China, the reaction in Beijing is meh. They would gain nothing but lose potentially billions. So they don't bother.

Protest about a cartoon of a prophet in a Danish newspaper and the European capitals are full of anguished protesters.
If they protested against millions of people consigned to Chinese gulags, what do you think the reaction would be? There would be no upside for them because insufficient people in China care.

As regards your last paragraph, I get that it's bizarre that they don't protest the persecution of members of their Muslim brotherhood, but as I have said, they have scant regard for their own citizens, let alone people thousands of miles away. So if the choice is between Chinese investment or protest, the investment angle wins every time.

rjsterry

I've rather lost track of the various 'theys' in your argument. I don't remember the Danish cartoon being protested by the local equivalent of Momentum, but maybe I missed it. You might have more of a point with left-wing support of Palestinians.

I'm quite prepared to believe that one authoritarian regime feels some solidarity with another, but you'd think the general public of these countries might have noticed, what with it being quite well publicised.

Stevo_666

orraloon said:

The Economist's latest podcast released via Economist Radio examines the Uighur situation. This from the strapline: "Unparalleled surveillance, forced labour, even allegations of ethnic cleansing: atrocities in Xinjiang province carry on. Why are governments and businesses so loth to protest? " I wonder why?

As mentioned above, we have some spare protesters who are very hot on these types of injustices. We could offer them a free expenses paid trip to Beijing?

morstar

rjsterry said:

I've rather lost track of the various 'theys' in your argument. I don't remember the Danish cartoon being protested by the local equivalent of Momentum, but maybe I missed it. You might have more of a point with left-wing support of Palestinians.

I'm quite prepared to believe that one authoritarian regime feels some solidarity with another, but you'd think the general public of these countries might have noticed, what with it being quite well publicised.

I’m not even sure it is solidarity. It’s just authoritarians protecting authoritarianism.

The letter doesn’t condone the outcome (Persecuting Muslims), it condones the successful exercising of protest/freedom suppression.
That the group being suppressed is one that would theoretically upset the supporters suggests that there is an ideological imperative that trumps the religious one. I don’t find this surprising. Authoritarians are obsessed with power more than magical sky creatures.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

ballysmate said:

rjsterry said:

ballysmate said:

The real shocker is that people are shocked that leaders of states who don't give a fcuk about their own people, should be expected to give a fcuk about people thousands of miles away.

Not so much this as the political gymnastics involved in internationally supporting religious persecution in one country and domestically insisting on the strongest possible penalties for even the mildest criticism of that same religion.

Yes there are apparent political gymnastics but do you honestly believe that the leadership of the list of countries you referenced give a toss about the lives of Muslims anywhere?

The Guardian article:-

It may be a cheap point but it remains true that if a western country were to display one-tenth, one-hundredth or one-thousandth of the brutality that China is inflicting on Muslims, the global left would be burning with outrage.

There is political mileage in agitating the left to support any grievance, real or imagined, in the west, but none in trying to agitate the Chinese, because they don't care.

Just bewildered that you think this has anything to do with left and right.

The idea that there is such a unified thing as "the global left" is, I would suggest, just as nonsensical as suggesting there is a global right.

Anyway, back to the point. Imagine if the Vatican had written a letter, backed up by Poland, and let's say, Brazil congratulating Pakistan on how well it was handling the numerous cases of Christians being murdered and persecuted.

There a few differences here:
- It is mostly not the religious authorities offering an opinion, so in your example above it would be the president of Brazil penning the letter. That seems vaguely believable at the moment
- The Vatican wrote quite a few letters in support of child abusing priests which demonstrates a lot of people play politics when it suits them even with serious things
- Each of those countries will have had its own reason for signing. Some will be because they are effectively at war and are happy to endorse the enemy of their enemy
- Way too many people in this country think Guantanamo Bay is fine and dandy. I wonder how may people would support a letter saying as much.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

orraloon said:

The Economist's latest podcast released via Economist Radio examines the Uighur situation. This from the strapline: "Unparalleled surveillance, forced labour, even allegations of ethnic cleansing: atrocities in Xinjiang province carry on. Why are governments and businesses so loth to protest? " I wonder why?

As mentioned above, we have some spare protesters who are very hot on these types of injustices. We could offer them a free expenses paid trip to Beijing?

Heaven forbid people want to change their own backyard.

rjsterry

Here's an MP making his views on China's treatment of Uighurs clear. Obviously doesn't fit Bally and Stevo’s idea of a protester.

https://twitter.com/Nus_Ghani/status/1280173438343266304?s=19

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

orraloon said:

The Economist's latest podcast released via Economist Radio examines the Uighur situation. This from the strapline: "Unparalleled surveillance, forced labour, even allegations of ethnic cleansing: atrocities in Xinjiang province carry on. Why are governments and businesses so loth to protest? " I wonder why?

As mentioned above, we have some spare protesters who are very hot on these types of injustices. We could offer them a free expenses paid trip to Beijing?

Heaven forbid people want to change their own backyard.

True, given the original issue was in the USA.

ballysmate

rjsterry said:

Here's an MP making his views on China's treatment of Uighurs clear. Obviously doesn't fit Bally and Stevo’s idea of a protester.

https://twitter.com/Nus_Ghani/status/1280173438343266304?s=19

Apples, can I introduce you to oranges?

I quoted the article from the Guardian and agreed about lefty protesters more than keen to protest against any alleged wrong from a western country against a Muslim country.
"Boo! Boo! Down with the west!"

Here you are quoting a MP regarding protesting against treatment of Uighurs in China.

TheBigBean

I do like the blank paper protest.

focuszing723

China's trade surplus hit its highest ever monthly level in December, as the country's exports continued to boom during the coronavirus pandemic.

Exports grew 18.1 per cent in dollar terms last month, while imports rose by 6.5 per cent, pushing the trade surplus to a record $78bn. Both exports and imports exceeded forecasts of economists polled by Bloomberg.

China's exports have benefited from higher demand for medical products and lockdown-related goods at a time when global trade has come under intense pressure and other big economies have struggled to cope.

That surge in trade has helped boost China’s economy, which has recovered rapidly from the early impact of the pandemic. Gross domestic product data to be released early next week are expected to show that the Chinese economy expanded 2.1 per cent last year.

https://www.ft.com/content/fa09bc45-05ef-4450-9400-5360dbaa5844

TheBigBean

focuszing723 said:

China's trade surplus hit its highest ever monthly level in December, as the country's exports continued to boom during the coronavirus pandemic.

Exports grew 18.1 per cent in dollar terms last month, while imports rose by 6.5 per cent, pushing the trade surplus to a record $78bn. Both exports and imports exceeded forecasts of economists polled by Bloomberg.

China's exports have benefited from higher demand for medical products and lockdown-related goods at a time when global trade has come under intense pressure and other big economies have struggled to cope.

That surge in trade has helped boost China’s economy, which has recovered rapidly from the early impact of the pandemic. Gross domestic product data to be released early next week are expected to show that the Chinese economy expanded 2.1 per cent last year.

https://www.ft.com/content/fa09bc45-05ef-4450-9400-5360dbaa5844

Yes, but you probably wrote that on a Chinese keyboard,

rick_chasey

Trade wars are class wars!

focuszing723

It's only going to get tougher when China's economy and as a consequence it's military budget in five years (as predicted, probably less now) surpasses the United States.

john80

Oh dear. The people of Wuhan believe covid came from another country. Its like Trump and election winning all over again. There is even a propaganda museum for the stoic effort to control the outbreak.

elbowloh

focuszing723 said:

It's only going to get tougher when China's economy and as a consequence it's military budget in five years (as predicted, probably less now) surpasses the United States.

I wouldn't have thought their military budget would need to exceed the US's to overtake them militarily as their costs (men and material) would be significantly lower per head/piece of equipment?

surrey_commuter

elbowloh said:

focuszing723 said:

It's only going to get tougher when China's economy and as a consequence it's military budget in five years (as predicted, probably less now) surpasses the United States.

I wouldn't have thought their military budget would need to exceed the US's to overtake them militarily as their costs (men and material) would be significantly lower per head/piece of equipment?

Is there any reason to think that they are looking to project military power outside of their immediate area?

The US has more aircraft carriers than the rest of the world put together

morstar

surrey_commuter said:

elbowloh said:

focuszing723 said:

It's only going to get tougher when China's economy and as a consequence it's military budget in five years (as predicted, probably less now) surpasses the United States.

I wouldn't have thought their military budget would need to exceed the US's to overtake them militarily as their costs (men and material) would be significantly lower per head/piece of equipment?

Is there any reason to think that they are looking to project military power outside of their immediate area?

The US has more aircraft carriers than the rest of the world put together

They have claimed pretty much the entire South China Sea.

They are definitely projecting power. That the US has done so for years doesn’t make it any less of a problem. Just makes us a bit hypocritical to be worried about it.

john80

morstar said:

surrey_commuter said:

elbowloh said:

focuszing723 said:

It's only going to get tougher when China's economy and as a consequence it's military budget in five years (as predicted, probably less now) surpasses the United States.

I wouldn't have thought their military budget would need to exceed the US's to overtake them militarily as their costs (men and material) would be significantly lower per head/piece of equipment?

Is there any reason to think that they are looking to project military power outside of their immediate area?

The US has more aircraft carriers than the rest of the world put together

They have claimed pretty much the entire South China Sea.

They are definitely projecting power. That the US has done so for years doesn’t make it any less of a problem. Just makes us a bit hypocritical to be worried about it.

The worry for me this time round is that the US has met arguably an even match. Sure USA has more tech but China has a more compliant population in large numbers with a serious economy behind them. If the people believe that covid does not come from Wuhan it seems to me that it would be pretty easy to make them believe anything.