Big Trouble with not so Little China..🇭🇰💛 / 🇨🇳😡
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?surrey_commuter said:mr_goo said:Disappointing that the topic has descended into materialism supply chain issues rather than discussing the geopolitical crisis that is happening in the SE Asia region.
A friend of mine has a son living in Taiwan. They're deeply worried for his safety as the Chinese navy are building up strength in the Taiwan straits. Could this be the next flash point? The West certainly don't help in this instance as they do not recognise Taiwan.
Your neighbours should buy a few books on Taiwan and after they have finished you should borrow them.Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.0 -
Is Singapore a dictatorship? Thought it had a similar parliamentary system to UK, albeit with President as head of state.rick_chasey said:
I am biased to help me out here. HK is basically the main “free” financial centre for China without capital controls, so if that goes it basically gives up its USP, right?TheBigBean said:It is worth noting that when Deng Xiaoping and Thatcher were negotiating the terms of Hong Kong's handover, Deng is supposed to have said he didn't see the point of negotiating, he could just take Hong Kong whenever he wanted. Thatcher replied to this by saying that yes, he could, but he would also destroy any of the value of Hong Kong in so doing.
Feels like modern day China has forgotten this bit.
Singapore will continue to benefit and will presumably become the new Asian #1 for FS in due course - because people don’t mind *that* dictator.Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.0 -
Very difficult to achieve in the short term. However I have been trying to avoid making any capital purchases small or large that are manufactured in China. As also noted components from said country are also likely to be a constituent part of any product made in another sovereign state.... Globalization and insatiable consumerism has given power to China.focuszing723 said:Your disappointment should be the fact that the Wests consumerist laziness has created this power shift predicament. What technology product are you using to type this Gooey?
Don't forget the Internet relys on millions of Chinese made servers, router, cables, monitors...to afford you this communication luxury Gooey! Are you going to take a stance and stop using it?
Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.0 -
Clickety click goes Gooey on his Chinese laptop in his Chinese shrine.0
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Don't worry all, the usual SJW's and wokeys will be out on the streets protesting this weekend with "Hong Kong Lives Matters" or "Hong Kong Democracy Matter"
Oh wait, there are still some statues they are angry at...1 -
Funnily enough you can be both.coopster_the_1st said:Don't worry all, the usual SJW's and wokeys will be out on the streets protesting this weekend with "Hong Kong Lives Matters" or "Hong Kong Democracy Matter"
Oh wait, there are still some statues they are angry at...
I have been banging on about Chinese gulags for half a decade but no-one in the UK gives a sh!t because it's muslims and not Europeans.0 -
Isn't that just whataboutery?rick_chasey said:
I am biased to help me out here. HK is basically the main “free” financial centre for China without capital controls, so if that goes it basically gives up its USP, right?TheBigBean said:It is worth noting that when Deng Xiaoping and Thatcher were negotiating the terms of Hong Kong's handover, Deng is supposed to have said he didn't see the point of negotiating, he could just take Hong Kong whenever he wanted. Thatcher replied to this by saying that yes, he could, but he would also destroy any of the value of Hong Kong in so doing.
Feels like modern day China has forgotten this bit.
Singapore will continue to benefit and will presumably become the new Asian #1 for FS in due course - because people don’t mind *that* dictator.0 -
Eh? I'm saying HK's entire raison d'etre is it's financial services hub. It has the advantage of being well developed there already, plus no restructing rules about capital. That obviously changes when it comes under full Chinese rule, right?TheBigBean said:
Isn't that just whataboutery?rick_chasey said:
I am biased to help me out here. HK is basically the main “free” financial centre for China without capital controls, so if that goes it basically gives up its USP, right?TheBigBean said:It is worth noting that when Deng Xiaoping and Thatcher were negotiating the terms of Hong Kong's handover, Deng is supposed to have said he didn't see the point of negotiating, he could just take Hong Kong whenever he wanted. Thatcher replied to this by saying that yes, he could, but he would also destroy any of the value of Hong Kong in so doing.
Feels like modern day China has forgotten this bit.
Singapore will continue to benefit and will presumably become the new Asian #1 for FS in due course - because people don’t mind *that* dictator.
If anything, I'm agreeing with you.0 -
I posted before you posted this. You get my point though, how can we pontificate when we've already made our bed? Also, how can we condemn China after our history of colonial rule? Can't they just say 'hang on a minute...'mr_goo said:
Very difficult to achieve in the short term. However I have been trying to avoid making any capital purchases small or large that are manufactured in China. As also noted components from said country are also likely to be a constituent part of any product made in another sovereign state.... Globalization and insatiable consumerism has given power to China.focuszing723 said:Your disappointment should be the fact that the Wests consumerist laziness has created this power shift predicament. What technology product are you using to type this Gooey?
Don't forget the Internet relys on millions of Chinese made servers, router, cables, monitors...to afford you this communication luxury Gooey! Are you going to take a stance and stop using it?0 -
Yes, and I agree, but then you went on to point out that Singapore is not a liberal democracy.rick_chasey said:
Eh? I'm saying HK's entire raison d'etre is it's financial services hub. It has the advantage of being well developed there already, plus no restructing rules about capital. That obviously changes when it comes under full Chinese rule, right?TheBigBean said:
Isn't that just whataboutery?rick_chasey said:
I am biased to help me out here. HK is basically the main “free” financial centre for China without capital controls, so if that goes it basically gives up its USP, right?TheBigBean said:It is worth noting that when Deng Xiaoping and Thatcher were negotiating the terms of Hong Kong's handover, Deng is supposed to have said he didn't see the point of negotiating, he could just take Hong Kong whenever he wanted. Thatcher replied to this by saying that yes, he could, but he would also destroy any of the value of Hong Kong in so doing.
Feels like modern day China has forgotten this bit.
Singapore will continue to benefit and will presumably become the new Asian #1 for FS in due course - because people don’t mind *that* dictator.
If anything, I'm agreeing with you.0 -
Given that the whole woke white BLM ally thing has a huge element of patronising noble savage romanticism I'm not at all sure that it's the Muslimness that puts people off: isn't it the same crowd that likes to go on about Islamophobia?rick_chasey said:I have been banging on about Chinese gulags for half a decade but no-one in the UK gives a sh!t because it's muslims and not Europeans.
Maybe it's got more to do with the fact that BLM supporting virtue signalling has very little social or economic downside, either for individuals, businesses or other institutions, whereas, with the Chinese govt leaning heavily on anyone who speaks out on HK or the Uighurs, it might not be wise to do so. Just ask Arsenal...
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Would love to see the UK gov't even make a public statement on the fact China is pretty chill about holding over a million people in gulags.bompington said:
Given that the whole woke white BLM ally thing has a huge element of patronising noble savage romanticism I'm not at all sure that it's the Muslimness that puts people off: isn't it the same crowd that likes to go on about Islamophobia?rick_chasey said:I have been banging on about Chinese gulags for half a decade but no-one in the UK gives a sh!t because it's muslims and not Europeans.
Maybe it's got more to do with the fact that BLM supporting virtue signalling has very little social or economic downside, either for individuals, businesses or other institutions, whereas, with the Chinese govt leaning heavily on anyone who speaks out on HK or the Uighurs, it might not be wise to do so. Just ask Arsenal...
So far, instead, it has resisted calls to ban cotton that is picked from the region where it is likely harvested by said slave labour, and invited the big Maoist wannabe himself over with the full state ceremony, and didn't mention it.0 -
Wanted them to build a power station tho’ innit.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
not any old power station, a nuclear power stationpblakeney said:Wanted them to build a power station tho’ innit.
people seem to forget that it is only 5 months since our sovereign govt extensively studied 5G and voted for Huawei to help build it.0 -
Surely the big difference is that modern day China no longer needs, or at least feels it needs the value of Hong Kong.TheBigBean said:It is worth noting that when Deng Xiaoping and Thatcher were negotiating the terms of Hong Kong's handover, Deng is supposed to have said he didn't see the point of negotiating, he could just take Hong Kong whenever he wanted. Thatcher replied to this by saying that yes, he could, but he would also destroy any of the value of Hong Kong in so doing.
Feels like modern day China has forgotten this bit.
If we plot GDP (admittedly a crude tool) China's was lower than the UK's up until 2005 (source Google, might be wrong)
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Xi is a real authoritarian type it seems, so he does not have the same tolerances for HK as Hu and Jaing appeared to have.Jeremy.89 said:
Surely the big difference is that modern day China no longer needs, or at least feels it needs the value of Hong Kong.TheBigBean said:It is worth noting that when Deng Xiaoping and Thatcher were negotiating the terms of Hong Kong's handover, Deng is supposed to have said he didn't see the point of negotiating, he could just take Hong Kong whenever he wanted. Thatcher replied to this by saying that yes, he could, but he would also destroy any of the value of Hong Kong in so doing.
Feels like modern day China has forgotten this bit.
If we plot GDP (admittedly a crude tool) China's was lower than the UK's up until 2005 (source Google, might be wrong)0 -
We've given China more power over us than military might would have achieved. We've become dependent on them for everything from cheap consumables to key infrastructure. Even where they aren't directly involved they are providing the finance. Once an organisation or country has that sort of hold on you you can't really do much other than make the limited noises they allow.rick_chasey said:
Would love to see the UK gov't even make a public statement on the fact China is pretty chill about holding over a million people in gulags.bompington said:
Given that the whole woke white BLM ally thing has a huge element of patronising noble savage romanticism I'm not at all sure that it's the Muslimness that puts people off: isn't it the same crowd that likes to go on about Islamophobia?rick_chasey said:I have been banging on about Chinese gulags for half a decade but no-one in the UK gives a sh!t because it's muslims and not Europeans.
Maybe it's got more to do with the fact that BLM supporting virtue signalling has very little social or economic downside, either for individuals, businesses or other institutions, whereas, with the Chinese govt leaning heavily on anyone who speaks out on HK or the Uighurs, it might not be wise to do so. Just ask Arsenal...
So far, instead, it has resisted calls to ban cotton that is picked from the region where it is likely harvested by said slave labour, and invited the big Maoist wannabe himself over with the full state ceremony, and didn't mention it.1 -
Oh no, here we go (again).focuszing723 said:...how can we condemn China after our history of colonial rule? Can't they just say 'hang on a minute...'
If we all took the view that x did y then we can justify doing x.
By this token, the Germans implemented the final solution*, anyone else can do the same. Or that we carried out Whaling, other countries are allowed to do the same.
Does that attitude give carte blanche to any nation's activities? Does it make it right? That's a flawed argument. It's called moral relativism.
*Not acceptable then.
[slight diversion] We aren't saints now - we sell arms to the Saudi's who are bombing the hell out of Yemen. But I am opposed to that and I can exercise my democratic right in opposing our governments foreign affairs whereas, if you are Chinese you cannot oppose anything that is state sponsored.
China agreed handover stipulations for HK and are now reneging on them.
Certain books are prohibited. You can get locked up for selling them in HK. You can buy and read Spycatcher or The Satanic verses in the UK. There's very limited censorship of written material in the UK. Only material that may incite violence or racial hatred. Which is fair enough.
As a race (human race) we evolve, therefore what was acceptable historically is not acceptable now.
Yes, we can condemn China for:
Exploitation of resources (For example, in Kenya, the Chinese government offered investment in return for the remaining hardwoods in the Chula hills jungle (where the original Jonny Weizmuller Tarzan(s) were filmed). They devastated the jungle and no investment materialised on a 'technicality' - probably bribed officials. That's just the tip of the iceberg.
Not doing anything really meaningful about the importation of Ivory. Poached Ivory, Tiger bone, some Rhino horn*, plus the devastation of shark populations for shark fin soup, turtles, snakes (from the lovely Australians).
*Main market for Rhino horn is actually Thailand.
To cap this, they have not only been directly complicit in devastating Elephant numbers, they buy a few from Zimbabwe to populate the zoos in China and then dress it up as investment for the wildlife parks. How awfully ironic. They should really be paying millions in compensation.
The 'Gulags' as RC describes them.
The censoring of anything sensitive.
The misrepresentation of Covid deaths - even reprimanding doctors for speaking the truth.
China a wholly undemocratic one party state unlike us and HK (to a degree for that matter). Its a dictatorship with huge power and resources possessing no morals and no democracy and no respect for it's own citizens (fed on a diet of propaganda).seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Lol, tapping away on your Chinese keyboard in your Chinese shrine.pinno said:
Oh no, here we go (again).focuszing723 said:...how can we condemn China after our history of colonial rule? Can't they just say 'hang on a minute...'
If we all took the view that x did y then we can justify doing x.
By this token, the Germans implemented the final solution, anyone else can do the same. Or that we carried out Whaling, other countries are allowed to do the same.
Does that attitude give carte blanche to any nation's activities? Does it make it right? That's a flawed argument. It's called moral relativism.
[slight diversion] We aren't saints now - we sell arms to the Saudi's who are bombing the hell out of Yemen. But I am opposed to that and I can exercise my democratic right in opposing our governments foreign affairs whereas, if you are Chinese you cannot oppose anything that is state sponsored.
China agreed handover stipulations for HK and are now reneging on them.
Certain books are prohibited. You can get locked up for selling them in HK. You can buy and read Spycatcher or The Satanic verses in the UK. There's very limited censorship of written material in the UK. Only material that may incite violence or racial hatred. Which is fair enough.
As a race (human race) we evolve, therefore what was acceptable historically is not acceptable now.
Yes, we can condemn China for:
Exploitation of resources (For example, in Kenya, the Chinese government offered investment in return for the remaining hardwoods in the Chula hills jungle (where the original Jonny Weizmuller Tarzan(s) were filmed). They devastated the jungle and no investment materialised on a 'technicality' - probably bribed officials. That's just the tip of the iceberg.
Not doing anything really meaningful about the importation of Ivory. Poached Ivory, Tiger bone, some Rhino horn*, plus the devastation of shark populations for shark fin soup, turtles, snakes (from the lovely Australians).
*Main market for Rhino horn is actually Thailand.
To cap this, they have not only been directly complicit in devastating Elephant numbers, they buy a few from Zimbabwe to populate the zoos in China and then dress it up as investment for the wildlife parks. How awfully ironic. They should really be paying millions in compensation.
The 'Gulags' as RC describes them.
The censoring of anything sensitive.
The misrepresentation of Covid deaths - even reprimanding doctors for speaking the truth.
China a wholly undemocratic one party state unlike us and HK (to a degree for that matter). Its a dictatorship with huge power and resources possessing no morals and no democracy and no respect for it's own citizens (fed on a diet of propaganda).0 -
You could add the really chilling technological totalitarianism - compulsory apps for your phone to tell the government, constantly, where you are and what you're doing? The whole Black Mirror social ranking thing?0
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Not that long ago* the Chinese didn't even know how to design or build power transformers for their power stations, I know as I was designing them. My wonderful bosses had the genius idea of selling them 3. We would design, build and supply 2 then provide the design and assist them in building the third. It didn't take a genius to see how that would pan out.Jeremy.89 said:
Surely the big difference is that modern day China no longer needs, or at least feels it needs the value of Hong Kong.TheBigBean said:It is worth noting that when Deng Xiaoping and Thatcher were negotiating the terms of Hong Kong's handover, Deng is supposed to have said he didn't see the point of negotiating, he could just take Hong Kong whenever he wanted. Thatcher replied to this by saying that yes, he could, but he would also destroy any of the value of Hong Kong in so doing.
Feels like modern day China has forgotten this bit.
If we plot GDP (admittedly a crude tool) China's was lower than the UK's up until 2005 (source Google, might be wrong)
Am I surprised we are where we are today? Not a jot. The world has sold out for short term gain. This is the consequence.
*early '80s. I was made redundant 2 years later (last in, first out. I just love unions). The company shut 2 years after that.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.2 -
Who knew communists were into using technology to track people.bompington said:You could add the really chilling technological totalitarianism - compulsory apps for your phone to tell the government, constantly, where you are and what you're doing? The whole Black Mirror social ranking thing?
Who. Knew.0 -
As an aside, it would be great if GCHQ would use its powers to make it harder for the people it represents to be spied on. It currently chooses to do the opposite, so it's very easy for a state e.g. China to borrow anything it likes from any business in the UKrick_chasey said:
Who knew communists were into using technology to track people.bompington said:You could add the really chilling technological totalitarianism - compulsory apps for your phone to tell the government, constantly, where you are and what you're doing? The whole Black Mirror social ranking thing?
Who. Knew.0 -
Agreed.TheBigBean said:
As an aside, it would be great if GCHQ would use its powers to make it harder for the people it represents to be spied on. It currently chooses to do the opposite, so it's very easy for a state e.g. China to borrow anything it likes from any business in the UKrick_chasey said:
Who knew communists were into using technology to track people.bompington said:You could add the really chilling technological totalitarianism - compulsory apps for your phone to tell the government, constantly, where you are and what you're doing? The whole Black Mirror social ranking thing?
Who. Knew.0 -
I mean, there is an obvious difference is that BLM is about your own country and not a distant far away one.bompington said:
Given that the whole woke white BLM ally thing has a huge element of patronising noble savage romanticism I'm not at all sure that it's the Muslimness that puts people off: isn't it the same crowd that likes to go on about Islamophobia?rick_chasey said:I have been banging on about Chinese gulags for half a decade but no-one in the UK gives a sh!t because it's muslims and not Europeans.
Maybe it's got more to do with the fact that BLM supporting virtue signalling has very little social or economic downside, either for individuals, businesses or other institutions, whereas, with the Chinese govt leaning heavily on anyone who speaks out on HK or the Uighurs, it might not be wise to do so. Just ask Arsenal...0 -
Ramping up the spy game in an attempt to match their activity won't really work in the long term though will it? Digital cold war?
They can out resource us. There's little we can do as long as we go cap in hand begging for investment and in the process turn a blind eye to whatever misdemeanor whilst on the surface saying (toothlessly) that the actions of the Chinese regarding HK are unacceptable.
I'll take 1m Cantonese migrants though. That'll boost the economy no end. Perhaps even, invigorate the FS industry post Brexit.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
If only there was some kind of mechanism or union on the UK's doorstep which could perhaps pool its resources to help combat it, even one that is larger economically than China....pinno said:Ramping up the spy game in an attempt to match their activity won't really work in the long term though will it? Digital cold war?
They can out resource us. There's little we can do as long as we go cap in hand begging for investment and in the process turn a blind eye to whatever misdemeanor whilst on the surface saying (toothlessly) that the actions of the Chinese regarding HK are unacceptable.
I'll take 1m Cantonese migrants though. That'll boost the economy no end. Perhaps even, invigorate the FS industry post Brexit.0 -
Well, with our own country the race troubles of another has set back the race relations in the UK at least a decade. Great move!rick_chasey said:
I mean, there is an obvious difference is that BLM is about your own country and not a distant far away one.bompington said:
Given that the whole woke white BLM ally thing has a huge element of patronising noble savage romanticism I'm not at all sure that it's the Muslimness that puts people off: isn't it the same crowd that likes to go on about Islamophobia?rick_chasey said:I have been banging on about Chinese gulags for half a decade but no-one in the UK gives a sh!t because it's muslims and not Europeans.
Maybe it's got more to do with the fact that BLM supporting virtue signalling has very little social or economic downside, either for individuals, businesses or other institutions, whereas, with the Chinese govt leaning heavily on anyone who speaks out on HK or the Uighurs, it might not be wise to do so. Just ask Arsenal...0 -
It still can.rick_chasey said:
If only there was some kind of mechanism or union on the UK's doorstep which could perhaps pool its resources to help combat it, even one that is larger economically than China....pinno said:Ramping up the spy game in an attempt to match their activity won't really work in the long term though will it? Digital cold war?
They can out resource us. There's little we can do as long as we go cap in hand begging for investment and in the process turn a blind eye to whatever misdemeanor whilst on the surface saying (toothlessly) that the actions of the Chinese regarding HK are unacceptable.
I'll take 1m Cantonese migrants though. That'll boost the economy no end. Perhaps even, invigorate the FS industry post Brexit.0 -
Oh, say can you see by the dawn's early light...0
