Edward Colston/Trans rights/Stamp collecting

DeVlaeminck

Her statement says she wants fairness but to continue welcoming trans athletes into races. She talks about the governing bodies doing the work to find a solution. The work has already been done and the conclusion was choose between inclusion and fairness because we can't have both.

morstar

DeVlaeminck said:

Her statement says she wants fairness but to continue welcoming trans athletes into races. She talks about the governing bodies doing the work to find a solution. The work has already been done and the conclusion was choose between inclusion and fairness because we can't have both.

She says they should be allowed to race. She didn’t say they should be allowed to enter womens events.

That seemed quite clear I thought.

DeVlaeminck

We'll just have to disagree - there is no solution that will satisfy the trans lobby (which doesn't represent all trans women) short of allowing them to compete as and against women. Katie is criticising the NGBs of various sports but isn't offering an alternative solution.

blazing_saddles

Two more opposing viewpoints:

Against:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10739541/Swimming-legend-Dawn-Fraser-joins-debate-transgender-athletes-sport.html

The debate has raged during the federal election campaign after Liberal candidate Katherine Deves was criticised for her tweets on trans women in sport.

McKeon, a five-time gold medallist, said swimming would eventually need to 'deal with' the issue of transgender women competing because it's 'just not fair'.

'I mean, I personally wouldn't want to be racing against someone who is biologically a male, so that's a concern,' McKeon said at Griffith University's A Better Future For All seminar this week.

'It's not a new thing, but it's new in that sport, swimming, are going to have to deal with it.'

'But now that it's a growing thing, the sport has to think about how to handle it and how to deal with it, because you do want to be inclusive, but you don't want to have females racing against swimmers who are biologically male because it's just not fair.'

McKeon's Olympic teammate Emily Seebohm compared drug use in sports to the unfair competitive advantages transgender athletes have in women's competitions.

While she said swimming should be inclusive for everyone, the 29-year-old said she would not want to compete against a transgender woman due to their biologically superior strength.

For:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/majority-of-female-athletes-support-the-inclusion-of-transgender-women-20220419-p5aehx.html

This research has found most women who play sport are not concerned about the inclusion of transgender women and girls. Indeed, only a minority of women believed trans women have an “unfair advantage”.

However, the views of most women who play sport stand in sharp contrast to the views of most men.

Researchers at Monash University recently surveyed athletes from six sports (including Aussie rules football and cricket) at 12 randomly selected community sports clubs. The study found less than a quarter of women (24 per cent) believed “trans women have an unfair advantage when they play on a female sport team” whereas nearly half of men (46 per cent) believed this to be the case.

These findings are consistent with other research conducted in 23 different sports, including team sports (e.g. soccer, netball and Aussie rules) as well as full-contact individual sports (e.g. kickboxing and taekwondo).

This research found only a minority of women (39 per cent) believed trans women have an unfair advantage, however, just 9 per cent expressed “strong” agreement with this statement. In contrast, a majority of men (65 per cent) believed trans woman have an unfair advantage, and more than a quarter (27 per cent) strongly agreed with this statement.

Pross

...

morstar

The latter doesn't say whether it's elite sport or not which I think is a huge gap.
Outside elite sport, take a marathon as an example, most competitors are either targetting a finish or a PB meaning other competitors have varying degrees of relevance from none at all to a useful barometer. So a large number of athletes won't care.

wallace_and_gromit

morstar said:

The latter doesn't say whether it's elite sport or not which I think is a huge gap.
Outside elite sport, take a marathon as an example, most competitors are either targetting a finish or a PB meaning other competitors have varying degrees of relevance from none at all to a useful barometer. So a large number of athletes won't care.

This is so true. A similar argument can be made about technology / "mechanical doping". For example, the vast majority of bike riders just ride the best bike they can afford and take whatever race results, Strava rankings etc. that follow, even if the local "headbangers" are riding £10k bikes with all available aero and weight saving aids. However, if you're racing for a living, you are going to shift heaven and earth to be on the best kit possible so you aren't at a disadvantage relative to the oppo.

Re racing opportunities for trans athletes, maybe the approach swimming takes with para-swimmers is the way to go. At normal club galas, para-swimmers race in heats with able-bodied athletes of the same gender, seeded based on entry times. The heavily impaired swimmers always race in the slowest heat. Their performances then go into the rankings from which they can qualify for national-level para-swimming events from which they can qualify for the Paralympics etc. It's only at this highest level where there are enough folk of the same impairment category for "person-on-person" racing where whoever touches the wall first wins to take place. Below this, folk are essentially just racing their PB for places on the rankings in their category. Even at national level there may be 4 or 5 different classifications in a 10-lane heat, with the winner not known until the last swimmer hits the wall and the classification adjusted points tally logs on the scoreboard.

Trans-female athletes could race in the men's events, albeit in the slower heats / categories with an overall trans-female ranking produced based off that. And if there's enough entrants, there could be a trans-female final. (Should work OK for the match sprint or TP on the track. Elite trans-female roadies might end up racing at Elite domestic male pro level etc.)

But trans-female athletes being allowed to contest and win the female category that is seriously contested is just a non-starter.

rjsterry

🧐

https://twitter.com/NPR/status/1519398683300843523?t=vu_jxlBsI4zTAgdSvu-WhQ&s=19

briantrumpet

rjsterry said:

🧐

https://twitter.com/NPR/status/1519398683300843523?t=vu_jxlBsI4zTAgdSvu-WhQ&s=19

Maybe it'll go in a museum.

shirley_basso

What was inside,?

kingstongraham

How terribly woke of them.

Dorset_Boy

shirley_basso said:

What was inside,?

A smaller statue
And inside that will be a statue that is smaller again
And inside that will be a statue that is smaller again
And inside that will be a statue that is smaller again

Pross

kingstongraham said:

How terribly woke of them.

Just to play Devil's advocate, I think this was approved in advance (they were talking about it on the news before it happened).

rjsterry

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

How terribly woke of them.

Just to play Devil's advocate, I think this was approved in advance (they were talking about it on the news before it happened).

But they're erasing their history 🤪

kingstongraham

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

How terribly woke of them.

Just to play Devil's advocate, I think this was approved in advance (they were talking about it on the news before it happened).

But they're erasing their history 🤪

Should have left it there to remind themselves. Maybe put a plaque on it.

rick_chasey

Since this is ostensibly a thread about statues, anyone see that Osbourne has agreed to loan out the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

I think we can all work out what's happening - they're not gonna be coming back are they?

Lots of outcry from a small bunch of academics, largely in the telegraph. I myself find the mental gymnastics some of these academics are doing to justify them staying in London quite remarkable.

rjsterry

I was aware that he'd been negotiating this for a while. The outcry seems to have failed to escape the confines of the Telegraph comment pages.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

Since this is ostensibly a thread about statues, anyone see that Osbourne has agreed to loan out the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

I think we can all work out what's happening - they're not gonna be coming back are they?

Lots of outcry from a small bunch of academics, largely in the telegraph. I myself find the mental gymnastics some of these academics are doing to justify them staying in London quite remarkable.

Thought the plan was to loan on rotation, so if they don't come back the next lot won't be loaned.

Stevo_666

Where are these protesters when you actually need them?
https://thetimes.co.uk/article/students-condemn-universitys-greta-thunberg-statue-0fq6wfzpj

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Since this is ostensibly a thread about statues, anyone see that Osbourne has agreed to loan out the Elgin Marbles to Athens?

I think we can all work out what's happening - they're not gonna be coming back are they?

Lots of outcry from a small bunch of academics, largely in the telegraph. I myself find the mental gymnastics some of these academics are doing to justify them staying in London quite remarkable.

Thought the plan was to loan on rotation, so if they don't come back the next lot won't be loaned.

AFAIK that's only one of the proposals.

kingstongraham

Can we send them Stonehenge? Then build a decent road.

rjsterry

kingstongraham said:

Can we send them Stonehenge? Then build a decent road.

They could just upgrade the A30 instead. Pretty stupid decision to make the A303 the main trunk road.

kingstongraham

rjsterry said:

kingstongraham said:

Can we send them Stonehenge? Then build a decent road.

They could just upgrade the A30 instead. Pretty stupid decision to make the A303 the main trunk road.

Don't they want Stonehenge or something?

rjsterry

Personally, I think Stonehenge is far more interesting than the Parthenon marbles

kingstongraham

rjsterry said:

Personally, I think Stonehenge is far more interesting than the Parthenon marbles

All you've got to do is convince the Greeks now and we're getting somewhere.

rjsterry

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

Personally, I think Stonehenge is far more interesting than the Parthenon marbles

All you've got to do is convince the Greeks now and we're getting somewhere.

What makes you think they want Stonehenge?

kingstongraham

rjsterry said:

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

Personally, I think Stonehenge is far more interesting than the Parthenon marbles

All you've got to do is convince the Greeks now and we're getting somewhere.

What makes you think they want Stonehenge?

Why wouldn't they? Same way we want to more easily look at stuff made in Athens.

kingstongraham

Actually, maybe somewhere in the middle east would pay more for Stonehenge.

Maybe they'd buy the Elgin marbles too. How much do you reckon we could get for them?

rjsterry

I'm intrigued by the Stonehenge animosity. Bad childhood experience?

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

Personally, I think Stonehenge is far more interesting than the Parthenon marbles

Having been to Egypt I have to say that Stonehenge is a bit sh1t.

As for the mystery of how it was built, 2 mins of Google provides the answer