Edward Colston/Trans rights/Stamp collecting

kingstongraham

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Jezyboy

I think you could decide that trans women were women but still have a cis women category.

Honestly, feel like it's one for the sporting bodies to decide.. But it does seem like above average but not world beating men can transition to become world class women athletes. That doesn't seem OK.

Pross

kingstongraham said:

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Hardly

rjsterry

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Hardly

Nothing about elite sport is natural so that's a pretty spurious objection.

imposter2.0

Update from BC on the Omnium champs, after the UCI got involved. Bad news for Emily...

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20220330-British-Cycling-calls-for-coalition-to-address-transgender--and-non-binary-participation-in-elite-sports-0?fbclid=IwAR1k5orOXMqilGl6A290da7opnnA5TQNBewSLSU0RJT8jmu2gjkS33Yt148

orraloon

There was an episode of ? More or Less: Behind the Stats which went into the testosterone level requirements etc. The (obvious) reminder I took away from that was along these lines.

If you look at pre puberty kids playing sports, girls and boys tend to be around the same levels of physicality, muscle strength etc across the ranges of ability. Puberty kicks in; males with the testosterone pump up get bigger and stronger. Biology at work, rather than sports administrators.

Post puberty, a male has had the testosterone effects 'benefit'. A male who wishes to transgender then taking treatment to reduce current testosterone levels to whatever level mandated by admin is not removing the benefit of having been through the historical male body development process.

So, in summary, 'snot fair.

kingstongraham

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Hardly

It's the body they were born in, how more natural could it be?

john80

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Hardly

It's the body they were born in, how more natural could it be?

So the body you were born in is pumped with estrogen to give you boobs. A nice surgeon chops off you balls and willy and gives you a nice new front bottom. Natural as mate.

Pross

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Hardly

It's the body they were born in, how more natural could it be?

The trans part of that would suggest otherwise. Definition 'of or to the other side'.

kingstongraham

john80 said:

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Hardly

It's the body they were born in, how more natural could it be?

So the body you were born in is pumped with estrogen to give you boobs. A nice surgeon chops off you balls and willy and gives you a nice new front bottom. Natural as mate.

Is that how you are defining a trans woman?

kingstongraham

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Hardly

It's the body they were born in, how more natural could it be?

The trans part of that would suggest otherwise. Definition 'of or to the other side'.

I thought a trans woman was someone who was born into a male body who believes themselves to be a woman. How would you define it?

imposter2.0

john80 said:

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Hardly

It's the body they were born in, how more natural could it be?

So the body you were born in is pumped with estrogen to give you boobs. A nice surgeon chops off you balls and willy and gives you a nice new front bottom. Natural as mate.

Have you ever considered a career in the Diplomatic Service..?

DeVlaeminck

Jezyboy said:

It's a lot more than 50 percent of the population that don't compete in elite sport I guess is the point.

Is sport not known for embracing diversity? At a guess I'd say there were a higher percentage of black premiership footballers than ftse 100 board members. There does seem to be a large number of lesbian elite athletes too.

Of course there's a bit of an elephant in the room with regards to gay footballers (and other sports).

Yes my impression is around half of female footballers are gay.

Pross

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Hardly

It's the body they were born in, how more natural could it be?

The trans part of that would suggest otherwise. Definition 'of or to the other side'.

I thought a trans woman was someone who was born into a male body who believes themselves to be a woman. How would you define it?

Considering people were talking in the context of competing in female sport I would define it as someone who was born into a male body and has actively changed that body to female i.e. hormones and surgery. I don't think anyone is reasonably suggesting a man who identifies as being female can compete in female sport are they?

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Considering people were talking in the context of competing in female sport I would define it as someone who was born into a male body and has actively changed that body to female i.e. hormones and surgery. I don't think anyone is reasonably suggesting a man who identifies as being female can compete in female sport are they?

Most sporting bodies follow the old IOC guidelines which require transwomen to reduce their testosterone levels to under 10 n/mol per litre for a 12 month period.

The IOC reversed this last year and the new guidance suggests no hormone therapy should now be required.

These are just guidelines though and not legally binding.

There has never been any surgical requirement to be allowed to compete, for any trans athlete.

In theory, any sporting body could operate a policy of allowing an individual to compete based purely on gender identity. In practice, none operate this policy currently in the UK, as far as I am aware.

imposter2.0

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Hardly

It's the body they were born in, how more natural could it be?

The trans part of that would suggest otherwise. Definition 'of or to the other side'.

I thought a trans woman was someone who was born into a male body who believes themselves to be a woman. How would you define it?

'Trans' is literally only half the story. Trans(gender) and trans(sexual) have different definitions, so it's helpful to know which one you are referring to.

rjsterry

imposter2.0 said:

john80 said:

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Hardly

It's the body they were born in, how more natural could it be?

So the body you were born in is pumped with estrogen to give you boobs. A nice surgeon chops off you balls and willy and gives you a nice new front bottom. Natural as mate.

Have you ever considered a career in the Diplomatic Service..?

The whole 'natural' thing is such a dead end there's nothing remotely natural about devising umpteen arbitrary competitive tests to find which half a dozen people on the planet have the best combination of random genetic traits and people willing to fund them to run in circles for the first third of their life.

rick_chasey

rjsterry said:

imposter2.0 said:

john80 said:

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Hardly

It's the body they were born in, how more natural could it be?

So the body you were born in is pumped with estrogen to give you boobs. A nice surgeon chops off you balls and willy and gives you a nice new front bottom. Natural as mate.

Have you ever considered a career in the Diplomatic Service..?

The whole 'natural' thing is such a dead end there's nothing remotely natural about devising umpteen arbitrary competitive tests to find which half a dozen people on the planet have the best combination of random genetic traits and people willing to fund them to run in circles for the first third of their life.

Do you want women who are born women to be able to compete at the highest level?

That seems to be the issue here. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that regardless of your current and hormonal make up, that being born male confers material physical advantages over people born female .

I.e. your XY chromosomes will always physically outperform their XX chromosome.

I’m aware that the idea you can’t escape your born gender can be really traumatic for people going through gender dysphoria - that’s why they will go to the extent of painfully disfiguring their body and all the trauma of a sex change to get over it.

But in women’s sport it is also about the women born as women. Much more so really, given the rarity of trans women.

Some of the times posted in US college women’s races by former men turned women are so so far ahead of any historical record it’s making the records meaningless. What is the point of competing as a born female at the highest level if you’re always gonna be beaten by former men?

What’s so troubling with gender dysphoria is the reality that you can’t really escape the gender you’re born in. But women who don’t have that shouldn’t have their top sport ruined as a result.

I’d contend in the event you are so traumatised by it that you want to enter into a sex change you ought to be ok to give up the opportunity to compete in women’s sport.

wallace_and_gromit

Isn't the key thing from a sporting perspective whether the athlete has gone through male puberty? If they have then even with suppressed testosterone thereafter, they have an undeniable advantage vs naturally born female (apologies if this is an offensive term - it's not intended to be) athletes e.g. longer limbs, bigger hands for swimming, greater muscle mass in general.

The recent case of Lia Thomas winning the 500 yards freestyle for women at the NCAAs in the States having done little more than making up the numbers as a male before transitioning illustrates the point quite well.

My daughter is a very good swimmer and as she put it: "Swimming is hard enough when racing the top girls without making it harder by making you race lads as well." and in general she is a big supporter of every minority group imaginable (and a fair few that I wouldn't even have imagined but which apparently exist.)

The rights of trans-gender women to compete as women and the rights of naturally born females to compete on a level playing field are mutually incompatible, so the least bad solution would appear to be to apply "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

Sorry if any of this offends anyone.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

imposter2.0 said:

john80 said:

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

All elite women athletes have a physiological advantage over the average woman. If it is decided that trans women are women, then that's just natural luck in the same way as any other physical advantage.

Hardly

It's the body they were born in, how more natural could it be?

So the body you were born in is pumped with estrogen to give you boobs. A nice surgeon chops off you balls and willy and gives you a nice new front bottom. Natural as mate.

Have you ever considered a career in the Diplomatic Service..?

The whole 'natural' thing is such a dead end there's nothing remotely natural about devising umpteen arbitrary competitive tests to find which half a dozen people on the planet have the best combination of random genetic traits and people willing to fund them to run in circles for the first third of their life.

Do you want women who are born women to be able to compete at the highest level?

That seems to be the issue here. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that regardless of your current and hormonal make up, that being born male confers material physical advantages over people born female .

I.e. your XY chromosomes will always physically outperform their XX chromosome.

I’m aware that the idea you can’t escape your born gender can be really traumatic for people going through gender dysphoria - that’s why they will go to the extent of painfully disfiguring their body and all the trauma of a sex change to get over it.

But in women’s sport it is also about the women born as women. Much more so really, given the rarity of trans women.

Some of the times posted in US college women’s races by former men turned women are so so far ahead of any historical record it’s making the records meaningless. What is the point of competing as a born female at the highest level if you’re always gonna be beaten by former men?

What’s so troubling with gender dysphoria is the reality that you can’t really escape the gender you’re born in. But women who don’t have that shouldn’t have their top sport ruined as a result.

I’d contend in the event you are so traumatised by it that you want to enter into a sex change you ought to be ok to give up the opportunity to compete in women’s sport.

I think that some sort of compromise needs to be worked out as clearly trans women athletes who have gone through puberty as male have a potentially significant advantage over their cis peers.

I don't think we need to resort to spurious arguments about what is 'natural' whatever that means.

rick_chasey

We both know by natural the poster meant not going through a sex change.

pblakeney

The compromise is simple. You compete as the sex* you were born as.
You can't win. Tough. Neither can I. Harsh but fair.

*Sex, not gender. You can identify as anything you please.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

We both know by natural the poster meant not going through a sex change.

I don't think there's anything unnatural about gender dysphoria. Suggesting that there is unhelpful to the whole discussion.

rick_chasey

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

We both know by natural the poster meant not going through a sex change.

I don't think there's anything unnatural about gender dysphoria. Suggesting that there is unhelpful to the whole discussion.

Sure. Not sure people are saying that though.

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

The compromise is simple. You compete as the sex* you were born as.
You can't win. Tough. Neither can I. Harsh but fair.

*Sex, not gender. You can identify as anything you please.

So I think this misses the point for gender dysphoria.

If you’ve gone through the trauma of a sex change, it won’t feel like you’re the the new gender if people say “look mate, I know you’re a bloke really but we can all pretend right? *wink wink*”

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

The compromise is simple. You compete as the sex* you were born as.
You can't win. Tough. Neither can I. Harsh but fair.

*Sex, not gender. You can identify as anything you please.

So I think this misses the point for gender dysphoria.

If you’ve gone through the trauma of a sex change, it won’t feel like you’re the the new gender if people say “look mate, I know you’re a bloke really but we can all pretend right? *wink wink*”

If you've been through that then the choice of competing in sport is not your main priority.
Unless it is in which case that's doping taken to a new level.

kingstongraham

rick_chasey said:

We both know by natural the poster meant not going through a sex change.

When I used the word "natural", I meant that elite athletes have physical advantages that they are born with. Not every human has the ability to become an elite athlete.

morstar

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/61157886

Katie Archibald giving a well reasoned input on the current situation from an elite sports perspective.

The article not as eloquent as her input as it starts repeating itself but that’s the talent drain at the beeb biting.

DeVlaeminck

I read her statement and thought it was a classic piece of fence sitting.

morstar

DeVlaeminck said:

I read her statement and thought it was a classic piece of fence sitting.

I felt She has made key points while going out of her way to not be inflammatory.

She quite clearly recognised that born males have an advantage that is not recognised by the UCI ruling. She doesn’t want to race against people who have that advantage but is mature enough to see the shit show that unravelled recently wasn’t fair on anybody.