The big Coronavirus thread

ballysmate

pblakeney said:

There seems to be a correlation between being able to work from home or being off on full pay and fully supporting a lockdown. I am not arguing one way or the other, just pointing it out.
On the other side those saying that the UK can’t go into lockdown need only look abroad.
We are all ****** either physically or financially. If not directly now then the knock on will catch up eventually.

rick_chasey

coopster_the_1st said:

I see our Berkshire_commuter is living up to his name again!

The UK is on a similar strategy to Germany yet there is no criticism of Germany. Ts

That's because the UK death rate is climbing faster than it did in Italy, whereas it is climbing more slowly than Italy in Germany.

Pross

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

So there seems to be a definite swing on here of people thinking Boris has not handled this as well as possible.

Standard apologies for DM link but it does show our extraordinary complacency and refusal to learn from others.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8133207/How-Boris-Johnsons-government-changed-tune-coronavirus-testing.html

The government changing tack rather conflicts with your 'British exceptionalism' theory. Adapting to changing circumstances is a good thing, no? Frankly, human history is a series of things we could have done better, and the public have as much responsibility as the government in this. We will only really know how much of it we got less wrong in a couple of years time or more.

It will not be years.

Very soon (days) we will discover if Boris can maintain the optimum level of infections to maximise the NHS without overwhelming it. Within a couple of weeks we will know if we are on a German or Italian trajectory.

What circumstances have changed in the last few weeks, or put another way, what do they know now that they did not know two weeks ago?

I assume it was more a case of putting things in place ready to announce the next phase e.g. you would think the financial support plans took a fair bit of discussion before suggesting pubs and restaurants close, either that or the Government showed uncharacteristic reactions by sorting it out in 24 hours.

You can't look at the immediate effects of the virus in isolation, it needs consideration holistically to prevent consequences further down the line.

I still say we will know in days if the Sombrero approach has worked

Maybe. My position has always been that the Government needs to follow the advice of their advisers, it may well be that advice wasn't the best advice but incompetent as I think Boris is he has to follow that advice.

pblakeney

For a knock on effect, companies have already shut up shop, staff have already been made redundant, and people have already been made homeless.
And we are not even in the lockdown phase yet.

rick_chasey

Is this guy SC?

https://twitter.com/kentindell/status/1240924238418247681?s=21

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

So there seems to be a definite swing on here of people thinking Boris has not handled this as well as possible.

Standard apologies for DM link but it does show our extraordinary complacency and refusal to learn from others.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8133207/How-Boris-Johnsons-government-changed-tune-coronavirus-testing.html

The government changing tack rather conflicts with your 'British exceptionalism' theory. Adapting to changing circumstances is a good thing, no? Frankly, human history is a series of things we could have done better, and the public have as much responsibility as the government in this. We will only really know how much of it we got less wrong in a couple of years time or more.

It will not be years.

Very soon (days) we will discover if Boris can maintain the optimum level of infections to maximise the NHS without overwhelming it. Within a couple of weeks we will know if we are on a German or Italian trajectory.

What circumstances have changed in the last few weeks, or put another way, what do they know now that they did not know two weeks ago?

I meant in broader terms. I have had clients wanting to close projects down and contractors pleading to be allowed to continue working as they may well not exist at whatever point work can resume. We could certainly have made a better choice of PM, but looking at some of the public behaviour, he seems quite an appropriate choice. In any case, he's the one we are stuck with so we are just going to have to make the best of it.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

coopster_the_1st said:

I see our Berkshire_commuter is living up to his name again!

The UK is on a similar strategy to Germany yet there is no criticism of Germany. Ts

That's because the UK death rate is climbing faster than it did in Italy, whereas it is climbing more slowly than Italy in Germany.

As pointed out before, the differences in the way the figures are compiled in each country makes it very difficult to draw robust conclusions.

awavey

verylonglegs said:

I've no doubt the A11 into Norfolk tonight will be full of Londoners heading to their second homes on the coast.

Already happened in Suffolk
https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/southwold-and-aldeburgh-second-homeowners-coronavirus-1-6570078

https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/southwold-second-homes-coronavirus-isolation-1-6570538

What those London visitors dont appreciate is that means nearest hospitals are Ipswich or Norwich only,the Aldeburgh hospital they might think will help them if it goes pear shaped, is part elderly care,convalescent home which will be refusing visitors, and they can lock the doors

Charlie_Croker

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

You only need to look at Italy and the pleading the hospital staff are making.
2 weeks ago:
“Don’t make the same mistake as us! Get indoors now!”

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-they-call-it-the-apocalypse-inside-italys-hardest-hit-hospital-11960597
Would recommend reading this. That’s London in a fortnight....

Severe Pneumonia is what you get - not a cold/man flu or flu like and that’s killing people. It’s not a game there’s no reset button!

focuszing723 said:

Does it really matter who's in charge? It was always going to be a $h1t show until immunity or the right drug is found.

No it doesn’t really matter, what matters is the logic behind the advice given out. Having said that he might as well p*** up the wall if we all don’t follow that advice

Pross

Severe pneumonia is what the most serious cases get, surely the situation is serious enough without overdoing things?

coopster_the_1st

rick_chasey said:

coopster_the_1st said:

I see our Berkshire_commuter is living up to his name again!

The UK is on a similar strategy to Germany yet there is no criticism of Germany. Ts

That's because the UK death rate is climbing faster than it did in Italy, whereas it is climbing more slowly than Italy in Germany.

And every UK single death as far as I know has been been because of serious underlying medical issues.

rick_chasey

FFS, lots of people have 'underlying health issues'.

mrfpb

coopster_the_1st said:

rick_chasey said:

coopster_the_1st said:

I see our Berkshire_commuter is living up to his name again!

The UK is on a similar strategy to Germany yet there is no criticism of Germany. Ts

That's because the UK death rate is climbing faster than it did in Italy, whereas it is climbing more slowly than Italy in Germany.

And every UK single death as far as I know has been been because of serious underlying medical issues.

As far as I'm aware, this is true in every country.

coopster_the_1st

rick_chasey said:

FFS, lots of people have 'underlying health issues'.

Old and people with underlying health issues die every day. Nearly 2000 of them every day.

Some perspective on the reality of daily life may go some way to remove this current unwarranted panic.

rick_chasey

What are you, some kind of closet eugenicist?

coopster_the_1st

There is way too much credence being put on where China are currently. I have no trust in the numbers they are putting out.

It feels like the media are using China to sensationalise the European situation

rjsterry

Underlying health issues covers a huge spectrum. To take a local example, Bomp cycle commutes 20 miles each way, 5 days a week. It's not just people who were knocking on the door anyway.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

coopster_the_1st said:

I see our Berkshire_commuter is living up to his name again!

The UK is on a similar strategy to Germany yet there is no criticism of Germany. Ts

That's because the UK death rate is climbing faster than it did in Italy, whereas it is climbing more slowly than Italy in Germany.

As pointed out before, the differences in the way the figures are compiled in each country makes it very difficult to draw robust conclusions.

Right now all else being equal would you rather be in Germany, UK or Italy?

pblakeney

How many people on this forum have underlying issues?
For example, I have both asthma and high blood pressure.

surrey_commuter

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

So there seems to be a definite swing on here of people thinking Boris has not handled this as well as possible.

Standard apologies for DM link but it does show our extraordinary complacency and refusal to learn from others.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8133207/How-Boris-Johnsons-government-changed-tune-coronavirus-testing.html

The government changing tack rather conflicts with your 'British exceptionalism' theory. Adapting to changing circumstances is a good thing, no? Frankly, human history is a series of things we could have done better, and the public have as much responsibility as the government in this. We will only really know how much of it we got less wrong in a couple of years time or more.

It will not be years.

Very soon (days) we will discover if Boris can maintain the optimum level of infections to maximise the NHS without overwhelming it. Within a couple of weeks we will know if we are on a German or Italian trajectory.

What circumstances have changed in the last few weeks, or put another way, what do they know now that they did not know two weeks ago?

I assume it was more a case of putting things in place ready to announce the next phase e.g. you would think the financial support plans took a fair bit of discussion before suggesting pubs and restaurants close, either that or the Government showed uncharacteristic reactions by sorting it out in 24 hours.

You can't look at the immediate effects of the virus in isolation, it needs consideration holistically to prevent consequences further down the line.

I still say we will know in days if the Sombrero approach has worked

Maybe. My position has always been that the Government needs to follow the advice of their advisers, it may well be that advice wasn't the best advice but incompetent as I think Boris is he has to follow that advice.

You never get unanimous, unequivocal advice. You get to chose the advisors and the advice that you want to follow

Pross

One of the unintended consequences that concerns me is people getting turfed out of hospital earlier than they otherwise would be to clear space.

As an example, though probably not a life threatening one, one of my wife's service users has been in hospital for a few weeks after complaining of stomach pains and being unable to walk. It appears that this is all down to mental health issues rather than anything physical but they were keeping her under observation. They've now decided she has to leave to free up a bed, the problem is that she lives in a supported living house rather than a care home and it isn't currently set up to cater for her needs on leaving the hospital (upstairs bedroom, no hoists etc. for her daily care) but there were no care home beds available.

The company my wife works for were therefore being pressurised to take her back home without the necessary care package being in place and at a time where they are under pressure in covering the additional care requirements of service users being home all day rather than at activities and with some staff having to self-isolate reducing their resources. In the end a compromise was reached that they would have her back if the paramedics brought her to the house and got her upstairs.

My wife then received a call yesterday evening asking if someone could go to the hospital to collect her as the paramedics couldn't get her to her transport. She'd already warned them that would be the case as they'd had the same issues trying to get her to the hospital in the first place. If they get forced into taking her back to the house before the necessary measures are in place there's a high likelihood of a fall or similar and then no doubt they'd be criticised for not having the necessary measures in place.

If this is typical of the level of risk assessment being carried out before a patient is discharged then I can see a very real risk of unnecessary deaths to people who haven't got the virus. Then on top of that you've got the risk of someone being discharged into the care sector who is already infected (we've seen examples of people being tested before being allowed off cruise ships subsequently becoming positive so I'd have thought a hospital discharge would run similar risks).

mrfpb

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

So there seems to be a definite swing on here of people thinking Boris has not handled this as well as possible.

Standard apologies for DM link but it does show our extraordinary complacency and refusal to learn from others.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8133207/How-Boris-Johnsons-government-changed-tune-coronavirus-testing.html

The government changing tack rather conflicts with your 'British exceptionalism' theory. Adapting to changing circumstances is a good thing, no? Frankly, human history is a series of things we could have done better, and the public have as much responsibility as the government in this. We will only really know how much of it we got less wrong in a couple of years time or more.

It will not be years.

Very soon (days) we will discover if Boris can maintain the optimum level of infections to maximise the NHS without overwhelming it. Within a couple of weeks we will know if we are on a German or Italian trajectory.

What circumstances have changed in the last few weeks, or put another way, what do they know now that they did not know two weeks ago?

I assume it was more a case of putting things in place ready to announce the next phase e.g. you would think the financial support plans took a fair bit of discussion before suggesting pubs and restaurants close, either that or the Government showed uncharacteristic reactions by sorting it out in 24 hours.

You can't look at the immediate effects of the virus in isolation, it needs consideration holistically to prevent consequences further down the line.

I still say we will know in days if the Sombrero approach has worked

Maybe. My position has always been that the Government needs to follow the advice of their advisers, it may well be that advice wasn't the best advice but incompetent as I think Boris is he has to follow that advice.

You never get unanimous, unequivocal advice. You get to chose the advisors and the advice that you want to follow

But I don' see any advisors protesting or resigning. I don't see journalists pulling apart the advice given and finding strong, alternative, expert opinion.

focuszing723

coopster_the_1st said:

rick_chasey said:

FFS, lots of people have 'underlying health issues'.

Old and people with underlying health issues die every day. Nearly 2000 of them every day.

Some perspective on the reality of daily life may go some way to remove this current unwarranted panic.

Right you're PM. What's your plan, do we just carry on as normal and see what happens?

coopster_the_1st

focuszing723 said:

coopster_the_1st said:

rick_chasey said:

FFS, lots of people have 'underlying health issues'.

Old and people with underlying health issues die every day. Nearly 2000 of them every day.

Some perspective on the reality of daily life may go some way to remove this current unwarranted panic.

Right you're PM. What's your plan, do we just carry on as normal and see what happens?

Listen to the science as we already are. Change the messaging to the reality of the situation that a lot of people going to die.

I think we are going to need a temporary universal basic income in place. That way we could reverse a lot of the current spending as businesses are not going to put their employees first if they are having cash problems

rick_chasey

I guess for Coopster, the weak ones are there to justify the strong....

rick_chasey

coopster_the_1st said:

I think we are going to need a temporary universal basic income in place. That way we could reverse a lot of the current spending as businesses are not going to put their employees first if they are having cash problems

Everyone's a communist in a time of crisis, even Coopster. Russian roots showing, eh?

morstar

focuszing723 said:

Does it really matter who's in charge? It was always going to be a $h1t show until immunity or the right drug is found.

I agree to an extent and try to be objective. However, I do believe we have the worst government in my living memory at the time of the greatest crisis.

Regardless of my political preference, I believe the prior governments have all been either broadly representative of varying beliefs/opinions and have had open and constructive dialogue or in Thatchers case, whilst quite autocratic, based on clear principles rather than vanity.

This lot are a bunch of yes men and women put in positions based on their acceptance of a no dissent policy.

Having said that, I don't envy them one bit with the difficult decisions they must take. I just wish they weren't a bunch of...

focuszing723

coopster_the_1st said:

focuszing723 said:

coopster_the_1st said:

rick_chasey said:

FFS, lots of people have 'underlying health issues'.

Old and people with underlying health issues die every day. Nearly 2000 of them every day.

Some perspective on the reality of daily life may go some way to remove this current unwarranted panic.

Right you're PM. What's your plan, do we just carry on as normal and see what happens?

Listen to the science as we already are. Change the messaging to the reality of the situation that a lot of people going to die.

I think we are going to need a temporary universal basic income in place. That way we could reverse a lot of the current spending as businesses are not going to put their employees first if they are having cash problems

Johnson made that abundantly clear on his first public address regarding Covid19.

Great, so you agree we need to contain the virus to protect the NHS and be able to cope with a variety of medical issues of all age ranges, along with Covid19.

tailwindhome

From the hospitality trade POV the biggest issue is paying staff and paying suppliers

This could be relieved by

1 - introducing Statutory Retention Pay - modelled on SPP - businesses pay staff x% of their salary/wages for y weeks reclaiming z% from gov.

This allows the retention of staff
Means the 100s of thousands of staff who will be laid off this week don't overwhelm the system

2 Time to Pay on VAT - great if you owe but anyone like ourselves who paid their quarterly VAT in 7th march in time on full can't avail.

March payment to be returned to business with a time to pay agreement

3 Short term financing to pay supplier bills. Keeps them in business too

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

coopster_the_1st said:

I see our Berkshire_commuter is living up to his name again!

The UK is on a similar strategy to Germany yet there is no criticism of Germany. Ts

That's because the UK death rate is climbing faster than it did in Italy, whereas it is climbing more slowly than Italy in Germany.

As pointed out before, the differences in the way the figures are compiled in each country makes it very difficult to draw robust conclusions.

Right now all else being equal would you rather be in Germany, UK or Italy?

All else isn't equal and I am stuck in the UK anyway.