Should Mark Cavendish swallow his pride and retire?

Jammiedodgeruk

Above The Cows wrote:

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

but I've got to say he's become a bit of a sad joke these past few years

I would pay good money to see you say that to his face.

lol...I would too. Im 6ft 3in and 17 stone and spent 12 years in the military before moving into security (hence why Im crap at hill climbing!)
I'm guessing if I said it to his face he wouldn't say much, people rarely do in all honesty.

bompington

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

but I've got to say he's become a bit of a sad joke these past few years

I would pay good money to see you say that to his face.

lol...I would too. Im 6ft 3in and 17 stone and spent 12 years in the military before moving into security (hence why Im crap at hill climbing!)
I'm guessing if I said it to his face he wouldn't say much, people rarely do in all honesty.

Ah, i get it. Being big and tough gives you permission to say stupid things without comeback.

ShutupJens

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

but I've got to say he's become a bit of a sad joke these past few years

I would pay good money to see you say that to his face.

people rarely do in all honesty.

Those people aren't professional sprinters though..

Alejandrosdog

ShutupJens wrote:

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

but I've got to say he's become a bit of a sad joke these past few years

I would pay good money to see you say that to his face.

people rarely do in all honesty.

Those people aren't professional sprinters though..

:roll:

morstar

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

but I've got to say he's become a bit of a sad joke these past few years

I would pay good money to see you say that to his face.

lol...I would too. Im 6ft 3in and 17 stone and spent 12 years in the military before moving into security (hence why Im crap at hill climbing!)
I'm guessing if I said it to his face he wouldn't say much, people rarely do in all honesty.

Just called yourself out as a plain old bully is how that post reads. The self deprecating bit about bad climbing doesn't really gloss over it.

above_the_cows

bompington wrote:

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

but I've got to say he's become a bit of a sad joke these past few years

I would pay good money to see you say that to his face.

lol...I would too. Im 6ft 3in and 17 stone and spent 12 years in the military before moving into security (hence why Im crap at hill climbing!)
I'm guessing if I said it to his face he wouldn't say much, people rarely do in all honesty.

Ah, i get it. Being big and tough gives you permission to say stupid things without comeback.

'Tis the way of bullies.

I'm 150cm and 50kg and crap at climbing and I'll happily tell Jammiedodgeruk that he's a bully to his face. His need to project his masculinity in this infantile way doesn't bother me at all. Bullies should always be challenged.

gsk82

I think you all need to get over yourselves. The line "i bet you wouldn't say it to his face" is pathetic and totally irrelevant in just about every context it's said.

Alejandrosdog

my dads bigger than your dad so there

Alejandrosdog

Above The Cows wrote:

bompington wrote:

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

but I've got to say he's become a bit of a sad joke these past few years

I would pay good money to see you say that to his face.

lol...I would too. Im 6ft 3in and 17 stone and spent 12 years in the military before moving into security (hence why Im crap at hill climbing!)
I'm guessing if I said it to his face he wouldn't say much, people rarely do in all honesty.

Ah, i get it. Being big and tough gives you permission to say stupid things without comeback.

'Tis the way of bullies.

I'm 150cm and 50kg and crap at climbing and I'll happily tell Jammiedodgeruk that he's a bully to his face. His need to project his masculinity in this infantile way doesn't bother me at all. Bullies should always be challenged.

CAREFUL now, he may be an equal opportunity bully. one punched face is pretty much the same as another.

m.r.m.

If he still had it, he would probably wipe the floor with the weak field of this European Championship. Instead, he is minutes down on a pan flat course (albeit with cross winds).

sheffsimon

M.R.M. wrote:

If he still had it, he would probably wipe the floor with the weak field of this European Championship. Instead, he is minutes down on a pan flat course (albeit with cross winds).

Didn't look so weak to me. Won by Viviani, Ackermann third, Groenewegen in the field, Kristoff and Bennett. Not lacking for sprinting talent there.

RichN95.

M.R.M. wrote:

If he still had it, he would probably wipe the floor with the weak field of this European Championship. Instead, he is minutes down on a pan flat course (albeit with cross winds).

Cavendish was in the group of around 30 chasing the lead three. He did quite a bit on the front himself on behalf of Lawless before dropping back.

m.r.m.

SheffSimon wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

If he still had it, he would probably wipe the floor with the weak field of this European Championship. Instead, he is minutes down on a pan flat course (albeit with cross winds).

Didn't look so weak to me. Won by Viviani, Ackermann third, Groenewegen in the field, Kristoff and Bennett. Not lacking for sprinting talent there.

To me that group has only 1-3 top tier sprinters (Groenewegen, Viviani, Bennett). Though it's also quite debatable if they are truly top tier if in form Gaviria, Kittel & Cavendish were to exist. You could also consider only Groenewegen as tier 1 with the other two being tier 2 and the rest tier 3 imho. When you add in Sagan, Degenkolb etc. into the mix, not all those names are of same quality.

RichN95 wrote:

Cavendish was in the group of around 30 chasing the lead three. He did quite a bit on the front himself on behalf of Lawless before dropping back.

I'm aware, but it seems quite a weak excuse (while it certainly happened). An in form Cavendish shouldn't and wouldn't be working for someone else on this course. He is there to close! Domestiques don't work for stars for giggles. They do it because the other guy is supposed to finish, validating their work!

above_the_cows

gsk82 wrote:

I think you all need to get over yourselves. The line "i bet you wouldn't say it to his face" is pathetic and totally irrelevant in just about every context it's said.

Actually no, I think it's incredibly useful for calling out fragile egos who like to throw their weight around from behind the assumed comfort of their masculinity. But then I'm not a dude and I see and experience the world differently. It never ceases to amaze me what macho-ever-so-apparently-manly men will do when someone actually punctures their misplaced bravado, especially if the person doing the puncturing is a small woman.

wombly_knees

Think he's hurting his legacy by staying on chasing a record which may or may not be attainable. I'm betting he won't get it. At least with Contador, who stayed on a bit beyond his use by date by his standards (IMO), he could chase stages or animate races by trying crazy attacks.

kingstongraham

If you're worried about his legacy, I've looked into it, and as far as I can tell from my research, they don't start wiping past wins out of the record books because you lose some races.

Rest easy.

wombly_knees

Thanks. Rested quite well after that... Won't change that he'll go down as one of the all time greats. But still maintain that it'll leave a bitter taste. Kapil Dev like, Botham like. Stinking up teams chasing a record generally does hurt.

bobmcstuff

wombly knees wrote:

Thanks. Rested quite well after that... Won't change that he'll go down as one of the all time greats. But still maintain that it'll leave a bitter taste. Kapil Dev like, Botham like. Stinking up teams chasing a record generally does hurt.

Sure but it's not like Dimension Data have got anything else going on is it!

kingstongraham

wombly knees wrote:

Thanks. Rested quite well after that... Won't change that he'll go down as one of the all time greats. But still maintain that it'll leave a bitter taste. Kapil Dev like, Botham like. Stinking up teams chasing a record generally does hurt.

Good point, because what everyone always remembers about Botham now is what he did at the end of his career. (For reference, I haven't got a clue except for those Beefy and Lamby adverts - "get with the beat, Beefy.")

RichN95.

wombly knees wrote:

Thanks. Rested quite well after that... Won't change that he'll go down as one of the all time greats. But still maintain that it'll leave a bitter taste. Kapil Dev like, Botham like. Stinking up teams chasing a record generally does hurt.

Ian Botham's last game in an England shirt was a World Cup final in which he opened the batting and the bowling. (Admittedly he got a duck)

timothyw

I mostly remember him from the Shredded Wheat ads and a Question of Sport.

disquieting_museeuws

RichN95 wrote:

wombly knees wrote:

Thanks. Rested quite well after that... Won't change that he'll go down as one of the all time greats. But still maintain that it'll leave a bitter taste. Kapil Dev like, Botham like. Stinking up teams chasing a record generally does hurt.

Ian Botham's last game in an England shirt was a World Cup final in which he opened the batting and the bowling. (Admittedly he got a duck)

No, he limped horribly into the summer 1992 series vs Pakistan where he was virtually a non-playing passenger.

DeVlaeminck

Above The Cows wrote:

gsk82 wrote:

I think you all need to get over yourselves. The line "i bet you wouldn't say it to his face" is pathetic and totally irrelevant in just about every context it's said.

Actually no, I think it's incredibly useful for calling out fragile egos who like to throw their weight around from behind the assumed comfort of their masculinity. But then I'm not a dude and I see and experience the world differently. It never ceases to amaze me what macho-ever-so-apparently-manly men will do when someone actually punctures their misplaced bravado, especially if the person doing the puncturing is a small woman.

To be fair he was just responding to someone saying you wouldn't say it to his face - the implication of which is presumably you'd be worried about Cav's reaction - it's not really bullying to say well I'm 6'3 and my career has been about physical confrontation in response.

That said I bet he wouldn't say it to his face - but not because he'd be scared more because it'd be terribly impolite - it's not uncommon for people to talk about sports stars (or other public figures) in rather more direct terms than you would someone you are with or who you are likely to meet.

RichN95.

disquieting_museeuws wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

wombly knees wrote:

Thanks. Rested quite well after that... Won't change that he'll go down as one of the all time greats. But still maintain that it'll leave a bitter taste. Kapil Dev like, Botham like. Stinking up teams chasing a record generally does hurt.

Ian Botham's last game in an England shirt was a World Cup final in which he opened the batting and the bowling. (Admittedly he got a duck)

No, he limped horribly into the summer 1992 series vs Pakistan where he was virtually a non-playing passenger.

Yes, you're right. I saw his last game was a ODI against Pakistan in 1992 and wrongly assumed it was the final.

Anyway wasn't everyone English awful in that series - Waqar and Wasim ripping everyone to pieces with reverse swing (which people said was impossible and could only be done with cheating)

sheffsimon

M.R.M. wrote:

SheffSimon wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

If he still had it, he would probably wipe the floor with the weak field of this European Championship. Instead, he is minutes down on a pan flat course (albeit with cross winds).

Didn't look so weak to me. Won by Viviani, Ackermann third, Groenewegen in the field, Kristoff and Bennett. Not lacking for sprinting talent there.

To me that group has only 1-3 top tier sprinters (Groenewegen, Viviani, Bennett). Though it's also quite debatable if they are truly top tier if in form Gaviria, Kittel & Cavendish were to exist. You could also consider only Groenewegen as tier 1 with the other two being tier 2 and the rest tier 3 imho. When you add in Sagan, Degenkolb etc. into the mix, not all those names are of same quality.

RichN95 wrote:

Cavendish was in the group of around 30 chasing the lead three. He did quite a bit on the front himself on behalf of Lawless before dropping back.

I'm aware, but it seems quite a weak excuse (while it certainly happened). An in form Cavendish shouldn't and wouldn't be working for someone else on this course. He is there to close! Domestiques don't work for stars for giggles. They do it because the other guy is supposed to finish, validating their work!

Eh? Didn't realise there are three tiers for sprinters.

kingstongraham

SheffSimon wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

SheffSimon wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

If he still had it, he would probably wipe the floor with the weak field of this European Championship. Instead, he is minutes down on a pan flat course (albeit with cross winds).

Didn't look so weak to me. Won by Viviani, Ackermann third, Groenewegen in the field, Kristoff and Bennett. Not lacking for sprinting talent there.

To me that group has only 1-3 top tier sprinters (Groenewegen, Viviani, Bennett). Though it's also quite debatable if they are truly top tier if in form Gaviria, Kittel & Cavendish were to exist. You could also consider only Groenewegen as tier 1 with the other two being tier 2 and the rest tier 3 imho. When you add in Sagan, Degenkolb etc. into the mix, not all those names are of same quality.

RichN95 wrote:

Cavendish was in the group of around 30 chasing the lead three. He did quite a bit on the front himself on behalf of Lawless before dropping back.

I'm aware, but it seems quite a weak excuse (while it certainly happened). An in form Cavendish shouldn't and wouldn't be working for someone else on this course. He is there to close! Domestiques don't work for stars for giggles. They do it because the other guy is supposed to finish, validating their work!

Eh? Didn't realise there are three tiers for sprinters.

Also, Ackerman has just been beating Gaviria in Poland after winning stages in the Giro.

m.r.m.

SheffSimon wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

SheffSimon wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

If he still had it, he would probably wipe the floor with the weak field of this European Championship. Instead, he is minutes down on a pan flat course (albeit with cross winds).

Didn't look so weak to me. Won by Viviani, Ackermann third, Groenewegen in the field, Kristoff and Bennett. Not lacking for sprinting talent there.

To me that group has only 1-3 top tier sprinters (Groenewegen, Viviani, Bennett). Though it's also quite debatable if they are truly top tier if in form Gaviria, Kittel & Cavendish were to exist. You could also consider only Groenewegen as tier 1 with the other two being tier 2 and the rest tier 3 imho. When you add in Sagan, Degenkolb etc. into the mix, not all those names are of same quality.

RichN95 wrote:

Cavendish was in the group of around 30 chasing the lead three. He did quite a bit on the front himself on behalf of Lawless before dropping back.

I'm aware, but it seems quite a weak excuse (while it certainly happened). An in form Cavendish shouldn't and wouldn't be working for someone else on this course. He is there to close! Domestiques don't work for stars for giggles. They do it because the other guy is supposed to finish, validating their work!

Eh? Didn't realise there are three tiers for sprinters.

Well quite obviously when you think about it. Just like for climbers or testers, not everyone is the same as there are clearly skill/talent differences between Dowsett and Cancellara or Mollema and Froome for example.

shipley

Jammiedodgeruk wrote:

I used to be a big fan of Cavs back in the day, but I've got to say he's become a bit of a sad joke these past few years that, for me at least, seems to be undermining everything he's achieved in the sport.

That head down, explosive sprinting power he had has gone and has been for 3 years it seems. Even today watching the Tour of Poland, it seems to be a regular pattern of his to now make it 'look' like he's still in the mix but simply isn't. He's way off, often head butting other riders going past, picking the wrong wheel and basically giving up way early in a sprint where 5 years ago he would have been at the front and popped out for a win with devastating power.

I find it all a bit sad to watch now because in interviews it's like his head hasn't caught up with the realisation that his body just can't do it anymore. He keeps coming out with the same old rhetoric 'I've won 30 stages at the Tour' as if the last stage he won was recent, when in actual fact it was over 3 years ago now. He sounds a bit like the Liverpool supporters of the 90's who lived off their past glories from the 70's, still not quite accepting its over.

With the likes of Griepel admitting his peak was done and moving down a level in terms of team and now Vivianna choosing a lesser team, isn't it about time Cav, who's been around just as long if not longer, does the same? I fear the guy is doing his reputation more harm than good now, which I find a real shame as he should be remembered as a legend rather than someone who held on too long and just makes excuses all the time.

Yes, he’s done and dusted. Probably still a worthwhile investment for the publicity as far as DD or NCC as I believe they will be branded are concerned. But he won’t be regaining his winning ways again.

ContrelaMontre

I can't see how his continuing has anything but upside. If he continues to fail to perform then no harm done he doesn't lose any of his record. If he wins just one more big race then it enhances his legacy as someone who suffered a bad illness and crashes and struggled to return but made it back to win again.

davidof

wombly knees wrote:

Think he's hurting his legacy by staying on chasing a record which may or may not be attainable. I'm betting he won't get it. At least with Contador, who stayed on a bit beyond his use by date by his standards (IMO), he could chase stages or animate races by trying crazy attacks.

Contador's last season was not too shabby though, at least he was in the mix a lot of the time with some good overall results and wins.