TDF 2019, Stage 20: Albertville > Val Thorens 27/07/2019 - 130 km *Spoilers*

rick_chasey

iainf72 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It was poised to be a belter until yday.

Do you think so? I never saw it.

How? What would've made it a "belter"?

Well those who needed to make time had the momentum and those who had to defend didn’t.

And I felt there were many permutations for how victory will occur.

Pinot pulling out for a crash I didn’t see and Bernal winning because he got lucky with a 30km out arrack and a shortened stage ruined it.

I feel quite crestfallen by the whole final two days.

At least Nibali put a cherry on it with another super classy ride.

blazing_saddles

RichN95 wrote:

underlayunderlay wrote:

Interested to know what recent editions are seen as better though?

Of the last decade, 2011 and 2015. Probably 2010 too.

I'm not saying it was bad, but people claiming it was the best for 30 years, as many have, is just daft.

I can see why a lot of folks think it was great. After all, a three week race can't just be about the GC. (although I agree there wasn't that much) It is hard to fault the racing up to the big mountain stages, though. Plus those stages did throw up a 2011 style underdog. This time it wasn't because of breakaway gain, either. I was roadside for stages 3,4 and 5, that year. they were OK, but hardly memorable.

The Pyrenean stages more than a match for the 2011 race. The Tourmalet had tension, if not big attacks. We got those on the Foix climb and a dramatic change of fortune for the Maillot Jeune. I recall the Plateau de Beille stage being pretty much a dud. Luz-ardiden was hardly great. Where 2011 beats this race hands down was in the Alpine finale: a huge high, as opposed to this deflating low.
Overall though, this edition comes out slightly ahead in my book.

2015: Froome illness added considerable tension, again in the Alps, but stage 10 dominance left the race air heavy with inevitability. Plateau de Beille became literally a damp squib, GC wise, as did Pra Loup, with big breakaways the order of the day.
Not as good as 2011 imo.

2010: Chaingate but I don't recall it as a great edition.

If I was picking one from the last 20 years to better it would be 2003.

iainf72

Rick Chasey wrote:

Pinot pulling out for a crash I didn’t see and Bernal winning because he got lucky with a 30km out arrack and a shortened stage ruined it.

I feel quite crestfallen by the whole final two days.

At least Nibali put a cherry on it with another super classy ride.

I don't think Bernal got lucky. He was the strongest. I think if the full stage had run yesterday, Bernal would've had big lead, GT in 2nd and Stevie K in 3rd. So today they would've just controlled it and rolled in.

Feeling crestfallen effectively because over the last 3 weeks it's built up in your head to be something and then the actual race was not that, basically.

blazing_saddles

iainf72 wrote:

And that's fine. People are entitled to an opinion. Pinot was a big loss but it was clear on Thursday he wasn't right.

I do disagree about 7 riders being in with a shout. 3 were (Thomas, Bernal and Pinot) and the other 4 were close but were never going to trouble the top spot

I can't see how you can draw that conclusion without employing a hefty dose of hindsight.

Well, I certainly couldn't but perhaps that's my issue.

rick_chasey

iainf72 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Pinot pulling out for a crash I didn’t see and Bernal winning because he got lucky with a 30km out arrack and a shortened stage ruined it.

I feel quite crestfallen by the whole final two days.

At least Nibali put a cherry on it with another super classy ride.

I don't think Bernal got lucky. He was the strongest. I think if the full stage had run yesterday, Bernal would've had big lead, GT in 2nd and Stevie K in 3rd. So today they would've just controlled it and rolled in.

Feeling crestfallen effectively because over the last 3 weeks it's built up in your head to be something and then the actual race was not that, basically.

I think you’re being a little harsh. The race was on the balance when it was stopped and we were, if you’re right, robbed of a hero ride.

To then back that up up a tough stage would be tough especially with a top form Pinot.

RichN95.

Blazing Saddles wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

underlayunderlay wrote:

Interested to know what recent editions are seen as better though?

Of the last decade, 2011 and 2015. Probably 2010 too.

I'm not saying it was bad, but people claiming it was the best for 30 years, as many have, is just daft.

2015: Froome illness added considerable tension, again in the Alps, but stage 10 dominance left the race air heavy with inevitability. Plateau de Beille became literally a damp squib, GC wise, as did Pra Loup, with big breakaways the order of the day.
Not as good as 2011 imo.
.

2015 had one of the best top 5s in history. Movistar had Froome on the ropes. Contador and Nibali chucking grenades. The first week had echelons, cobbles, Muur de Huy. Martin crashed in yellow. Greipel winning 4 despite being a 'fading force'. Cummings mugged Pinot and Bardet. Bardet won the combativity and a stage descending. Pinot won solo on Alpe d'Huez....

rick_chasey

Mate 2015 that’s only a top Tour if you’re a Froome fan.

iainf72

Blazing Saddles wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

And that's fine. People are entitled to an opinion. Pinot was a big loss but it was clear on Thursday he wasn't right.

I do disagree about 7 riders being in with a shout. 3 were (Thomas, Bernal and Pinot) and the other 4 were close but were never going to trouble the top spot

I can't see how you can draw that conclusion without employing a hefty dose of hindsight.

Well, I certainly couldn't but perhaps that's my issue.

My reasoning: JA was going to fall away because he's not a man who would win a grand tour. SK and EB were riding for podium spots. And they'd ride conservatively to achieve that. Have you ever seen either of them really attack?

I didn't know much but I was certain JA wouldn't survive.

As I said on Monday...

https://twitter.com/iain_forfar/status/ ... 0108617728

ocdupalais

iainf72 wrote:

Feeling crestfallen effectively because over the last 3 weeks it's built up in your head to be something and then the actual race was not that, basically.

That’s the truth about every GT.

ocdupalais

I don’t know why I watch this bag of sh1t.

shirley_basso

iainf72 wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

And that's fine. People are entitled to an opinion. Pinot was a big loss but it was clear on Thursday he wasn't right.

I do disagree about 7 riders being in with a shout. 3 were (Thomas, Bernal and Pinot) and the other 4 were close but were never going to trouble the top spot

I can't see how you can draw that conclusion without employing a hefty dose of hindsight.

Well, I certainly couldn't but perhaps that's my issue.

My reasoning: JA was going to fall away because he's not a man who would win a grand tour. SK and EB were riding for podium spots. And they'd ride conservatively to achieve that. Have you ever seen either of them really attack?

I didn't know much but I was certain JA wouldn't survive.

As I said on Monday...

https://twitter.com/iain_forfar/status/ ... 0108617728

Hasn't EB taken some stage wins this year in yellow (TdS).

I hope he becomes a more attacking rider as he could have easily humiliated SK if he wanted to today.

iainf72

Rick Chasey wrote:

I think you’re being a little harsh. The race was on the balance when it was stopped and we were, if you’re right, robbed of a hero ride.

To then back that up up a tough stage would be tough especially with a top form Pinot.

I agree we were robbed.

Funny how stage 19 was the stage in the Giro last yeat that Pinot packed and the one Froome did his long attack, eh?

I'm not saying it was a terrible Tour. It was good, but it wasn't one for the ages.

iainf72

Shirley Basso wrote:

Hasn't EB taken some stage wins this year in yellow (TdS).

I hope he becomes a more attacking rider as he could have easily humiliated SK if he wanted to today.

He will but he said he wanted to do a top 10 in the Tour. And the race is so important I'm sure he was super chuffed to have got a top 5.

rick_chasey

iainf72 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I think you’re being a little harsh. The race was on the balance when it was stopped and we were, if you’re right, robbed of a hero ride.

To then back that up up a tough stage would be tough especially with a top form Pinot.

I agree we were robbed.

Funny how stage 19 was the stage in the Giro last yeat that Pinot packed and the one Froome did his long attack, eh?

I'm not saying it was a terrible Tour. It was good, but it wasn't one for the ages.

Well no because the two most important stages were cut off at the knee back to back.

Lanterne_Rogue

OCDuPalais wrote:

I don’t know why I watch this bag of sh1t.

Anyone care to move us through the remaining stages of grief?

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Mate 2015 that’s only a top Tour if you’re a Froome fan.

Similarly this one is only great if you think the possibilty of a French win is important. Swap Alaphilippe and Pinot for Benoot and Fuglsang and is it still great?

Of the top six only Buchmann is their team's first choice GC rider.

shirley_basso

Blazing Saddles wrote:

This one is for Frenchie's album from the frenchies at Le Tour twitter.

Image credit to Jared Gruber - worth a follow on Instagram. One of FFs favourites.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Mate 2015 that’s only a top Tour if you’re a Froome fan.

Similarly this one is only great if you think the possibilty of a French win is important. Swap Alaphilippe and Pinot for Benoot and Fuglsang and is it still great?

It’s a bit different as it’s a French race

mamil314

john1967 wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Shipley wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

davidof wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Bit of a damp squib at the very end but a great stage.

Terrified about the future of Bernal vs Froome when on the same team.

Epic ride by JA. Big shame for JA and TP.

Ineos will back whoever has the most chance of winning in 2020.

Agree but it’s a shame not to see them race against each other.

I know people are sick of ‘what ifs’ but Froome would have cruised this tour.

And wouldn’t that have been a pile of sh1te.

Froome not here made this Tour the best one for ages.....Alaphillipe was fabulous, as was the atmosphere in the crowd....positive, happy and excited and not bored and resentful. Pity about the last couple of stages being impacted by the weather but they were all knackered.

I witnessed firsthand lots of booing and swearing at Ineos riders and team cars, as well as a smoke bomb targeting of Thomas. I don't get why you'd climb 2,500m to boo (and set off smoke bombs) at cyclists and some people doing their jobs in a car but then I'm not a d1ckhead.

I wouldn't even boo riders from Bahrain Merida, I'd question their decision to ride for a country that just executed three members of its political opposition after forcing confessions from them through torture, but I wouldn't actually boo the riders. It's boorish stupidity that says infinitely more about the characters of the so-called 'fans' than it does about the targets of their ire.

It's a sport and fans are entitled to boo who they want.Agree about the smoke bombs,flares and worse being thrown. That should be policed better.

What a scummy thing to do, though. Used to really think cycling would not have this soccer style mob mentality. I understand supporting your favourite, but proactively poo-pooing other's efforts makes less than no sense. "But with their wages it's ok for them to handle some banter' this grinds my gears badly. From thrown projectiles to death threats, adding stress to already high pressure of achieving and it is only recently that is becoming ok to talk about athletes mental health.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Mate 2015 that’s only a top Tour if you’re a Froome fan.

Similarly this one is only great if you think the possibilty of a French win is important. Swap Alaphilippe and Pinot for Benoot and Fuglsang and is it still great?

It’s a bit different as it’s a French race

No tennis fan would claim 2013 was great Wimbledon just because Murray won when Federer and Nadal went out in the first rounds.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

While Bernal was highly tipped to make good use of his advantage on the climbs that went above 2000m, yesterday's and today's robbed us of seeing what the other GC contenders could do. I'd expect all the other GC contenders were holding back a bit on Iseran to try and catch Bernal on the descent and final climb to Tignes, while today the shortened route that was flat and uphill left very little tactics to change GC classification.

Quite enjoyed the Tour until yesterday, but it really turned into a damp squib final two days of racing, we was robbed IMO.

hypster

I think some people need to revisit earlier threads and see the prevailing sentiment there about just how good this Tour was turning out. It was only the three disappointments of Pinot withdrawing and the two shortened stages due to weather that stopped it being an absolute classic.

Prior to stage 19 the Ineos doms were being put under severe pressure and everyone was crowing about that. The fact that they just managed to rally and put their man in yellow was far from the foregone conclusion that some seem to think it was as in years gone by. The truth of the matter which was obvious today was that Jumbo, Movistar and DQ wore themselves out over the three weeks and all contributed to an amazing spectacle.

I'm just sad that I've got to wait another 49 weeks for the whole exciting spectacle to start again.

mididoctors

pinot getting injured removed the tactical block for Ineos. it had a major impact on what other teams could do. pinot was ahead of Bernal. Ineos simply couldn't launch him and drag pinot away. if Pinot had stayed healthy anything could happen. if those lower on GC kept getting in the breaks Bernal couldn't counter without getting countered himself and Ineos couldn't ride defensively and allow themselves to watch pinot come over the top. everyone would have to queue up on pinots wheel. Ineos would have to flip pinot by getting G down the road or attack early and force a chase much earlier hoping Bernal could counter pinot... they had a problem .how to keep G ahead of Pinot or get Bernal over the top?

when that problem occurs your Buchmans et al were not tested and kept dangerously close.

that said once he was gone Ineos just sent the lad up the road and no one could follow.

pinot dropping out was a big shame. but you have to finish to win.

Bernal deserved the win.

mididoctors

supercombativity alaphillipe?

gsk82

I think yesterday added to the tour. Today was the real downer.

mididoctors

i still rate it as one of the greatest tours I have ever seen..

blazing_saddles

iainf72 wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

And that's fine. People are entitled to an opinion. Pinot was a big loss but it was clear on Thursday he wasn't right.

I do disagree about 7 riders being in with a shout. 3 were (Thomas, Bernal and Pinot) and the other 4 were close but were never going to trouble the top spot

I can't see how you can draw that conclusion without employing a hefty dose of hindsight.

Well, I certainly couldn't but perhaps that's my issue.

My reasoning: JA was going to fall away because he's not a man who would win a grand tour. SK and EB were riding for podium spots. And they'd ride conservatively to achieve that. Have you ever seen either of them really attack?

I didn't know much but I was certain JA wouldn't survive.

As I said on Monday...

https://twitter.com/iain_forfar/status/ ... 0108617728

I also said I expected JA to fall away, but ultimately I had no idea about how Buchmann, Kruijswijk, or even Thomas's form for that matter, would hold up until today's final km of what was a flop finale.
Quintana looked dead and buried, but then smashed the record ascent of the Galibier by almost 2 minutes and I began to wonder. (not to mention Movistar's madness that day)
Landa always manages to keep folks guessing.

mididoctors

OCDuPalais wrote:

I don’t know why I watch this bag of sh1t.

well always next year.

coopster_the_1st

Had Pinot been riding stages 19 & 20 this would have been a fantastic race even with the shortened stages. That's because he was a rider who was willing to attack.

I don't recall one attack from SK or EB over the whole race. Even today they put their teammates on the front and then did nothing. We all know Pinot would have ridden an attacking race on stages 19 & 20.

I'm sure Bernal or Thomas could have won the stage today. They both crossed the line looking easy, and this is another downer as they were riding only for the Ineos Tour win. I would love to have seen Bernal try for the Polka dot jersey

mididoctors

Blazing Saddles wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

And that's fine. People are entitled to an opinion. Pinot was a big loss but it was clear on Thursday he wasn't right.

I do disagree about 7 riders being in with a shout. 3 were (Thomas, Bernal and Pinot) and the other 4 were close but were never going to trouble the top spot

I can't see how you can draw that conclusion without employing a hefty dose of hindsight.

Well, I certainly couldn't but perhaps that's my issue.

My reasoning: JA was going to fall away because he's not a man who would win a grand tour. SK and EB were riding for podium spots. And they'd ride conservatively to achieve that. Have you ever seen either of them really attack?

I didn't know much but I was certain JA wouldn't survive.

As I said on Monday...

https://twitter.com/iain_forfar/status/ ... 0108617728

I also said I expected JA to fall away, but ultimately I had no idea about how Buchmann, Kruijswijk, or even Thomas's form for that matter, would hold up until today's final km of what was a flop finale.
Quintana looked dead and buried, but then smashed the record ascent of the Galibier by almost 2 minutes and I began to wonder. (not to mention Movistar's madness that day)
Landa always manages to keep folks guessing.

odd combination of fatigue and freshness neutralised the final stage a bit.

everyone was a bit blunt but the fresh short stage and lack of persistent steepness meant Ineos could keep it controlled.

surprised to see Buchman had been riding to his class all along and basically fourth was where he was at? not really i guess.

the tactics kinda compressed the GC till pinot fell off. after that back to normality.

crosswinds and injury-free Pinot? that's the big counterfactual... I agree about Landa. there has to be a win in there surely..his ITT is pants