TDF 2019, Stage 13: Pau > Pau 19/07/2019 - 27,2 km ITT *Spoilers*

Pross

RichN95 wrote:

Pross wrote:

You're wasting your time. Some people are incapable of understanding context (they seem incapable of understanding that this wasn't his first TT win and that it wasn't a typical TT course as well).

Over at the Asylum there was a person who had put an enormous amount of time into analysing Froome's (who else) TT results from 2008 to whenever and concluded that he was much better from mid 2011 onwards.

I pointed out the obvious, but he was absolutely adamant that every rider goes full gas in every TT. I thin he didn;'t really believe this but was desperately trying to convince himself that he hadn't wasted a lot of his time.

Hardly a surprise, they don't even understand the futility of comparing a climb into a block headwind 50k into a stage to the same climb with a tailwind being fought out for the stage win and yellow jersey.

RichN95.

Pross wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Pross wrote:

You're wasting your time. Some people are incapable of understanding context (they seem incapable of understanding that this wasn't his first TT win and that it wasn't a typical TT course as well).

Over at the Asylum there was a person who had put an enormous amount of time into analysing Froome's (who else) TT results from 2008 to whenever and concluded that he was much better from mid 2011 onwards.

I pointed out the obvious, but he was absolutely adamant that every rider goes full gas in every TT. I thin he didn;'t really believe this but was desperately trying to convince himself that he hadn't wasted a lot of his time.

Hardly a surprise, they don't even understand the futility of comparing a climb into a block headwind 50k into a stage to the same climb with a tailwind being fought out for the stage win and yellow jersey.

The classic in that field is the YouTube comparison of Froome v Armstrong on Ventoux

- As the action starts Froome is in a group of around 50 lead by Kennaugh while Armstrong is in a group of seven with Pantani dropped. Then Froome attacks at 7km to go and it takes Armstrong another 5km to respond, yet he still almost catches him.

salsiccia1

Matthewfalle wrote:

john1967 wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

i am not buying into the drug cheat stuff at all. just not feeling it.

Then can someone please explain how a rider goes from finishing 58 in 2018 stage 20 itt to winning the next.Ladt year he was 3 m 30 secs down on G. Just asking.

obviously the same pane e agua training plan as Froome & Wiggins.

#Just saying.

Hello, sailor

mamil314

Alaphilippe does seem the type to thrive with roadside support considering suitable route and his GC position. Also, him being 5 years younger than G and having consumed less beer over winter, I can just say 'Bravo'!

RichN95.

French headlines.

Tomorrow; " Le Nouveau Hinault"

The next day: "Brexit: Le Tour a deux vitesse"

bm5

Thomas de Gendt - wow

bm5

Deleted

Wayne Plunger

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Pross wrote:

Oh well, at least we've made it until nearly the end of week 2 before the cries of 'drug cheat' appear. That must be the longest since the 90s. Makes a change for it not to be aimed at Anglophones though I suppose and for some there always has to be doping or they get bored.

Well Pross sometimes the performances defy belief. this is one of those times.

only there are more calls because hes not English

Imagine if he had a jiffy bag delivery as well

Thankfully as much as they like to think it does, the world does not revolve around the Ingurlish.

Alejandrosdog

Wayne Plunger wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Pross wrote:

Oh well, at least we've made it until nearly the end of week 2 before the cries of 'drug cheat' appear. That must be the longest since the 90s. Makes a change for it not to be aimed at Anglophones though I suppose and for some there always has to be doping or they get bored.

Well Pross sometimes the performances defy belief. this is one of those times.

only there are more calls because hes not English

Imagine if he had a jiffy bag delivery as well

Thankfully as much as they like to think it does, the world does not revolve around the Ingurlish.

Woooooosh

timothyw

I'm just disappointed in the lack of a 'proper' TT stage to be honest. There's plenty of stages for the climbers in the next week, we've had a few sprint stages, but we've had a TT course for puncheurs instead of rouleurs.

Not a surprise that Alaphilippe is still in the lead after that, I wouldn't be surprised if he survives tomorrow too, but I expect a Yates Giro 2018 style crack sooner or later in the mountains.

hypster

I love how people say it was a stage that suited Alaphilippe yet it didn't seem to suit Yates, Bernal, Quintana and many other supposed climbers. Also that Thomas was just undercooked but he didn't seem undercooked on Les Planche des Belle Filles when beating Alaphilippe. Funny how some riders are cooked and undercooked when it explains a miraculous performance.

I guess Alaphilippe just has a certain je ne said quoi.

Alejandrosdog

Pross wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Pross wrote:

Oh well, at least we've made it until nearly the end of week 2 before the cries of 'drug cheat' appear. That must be the longest since the 90s. Makes a change for it not to be aimed at Anglophones though I suppose and for some there always has to be doping or they get bored.

Well Pross sometimes the performances defy belief. this is one of those times.

only there are more calls because hes not English

Imagine if he had a jiffy bag delivery as well

So taking into account the stats I posted above and it was a course with punchy climbs and technical elements why would you say the race being won by a rider who is no slouch in TTs, loves punchy climbs and is known as an excellent bike handler winning the race defies belief especially when that person has the incentive of defending the yellow jersey?

If this had been a 40k pan flat TT on wide open roads where the fast riders were averaging over 50kph I might join the cynicism and I might if he holds on to the GC group tomorrow assuming the main contenders race properly.

I agree with all of that re the course, and actually, this last three weeks have been pretty much no more than a classics block ie. a feww superb one day efforts, some training rides and a couple of midweek semi classics. Maybe I've been too harsh and too cynical.

above_the_cows

hypster wrote:

I love how people say it was a stage that suited Alaphilippe yet it didn't seem to suit Yates, Bernal, Quintana and many other supposed climbers. Also that Thomas was just undercooked but he didn't seem undercooked on Les Planche des Belle Filles when beating Alaphilippe. Funny how some riders are cooked and undercooked when it explains a miraculous performance.

I guess Alaphilippe just has a certain je ne said quoi.

But others are saying it suited puncheurs not pure climbers or climber-rouleurs, so yeah it suited Alaphilippe and not say Quintana or Thomas.

And it wasn't as if the people we were expecting to do well (and were trying, i.e. not Kwia) didn't do well, they did (all the GC dudes, minus Bardet of course, posted good times), it's just Captain Julian Sparrow did better.

Alejandrosdog

TimothyW wrote:

I'm just disappointed in the lack of a 'proper' TT stage to be honest. There's plenty of stages for the climbers in the next week, we've had a few sprint stages, but we've had a TT course for puncheurs instead of rouleurs.

Not a surprise that Alaphilippe is still in the lead after that, I wouldn't be surprised if he survives tomorrow too, but I expect a Yates Giro 2018 style crack sooner or later in the mountains.

im glad we havent had a long flat TT, theyre boring to watch and coupled with less climbing get people like wiggins into yellow. I prefer a bit more drama.

philwint

Alejandrosdog wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

I'm just disappointed in the lack of a 'proper' TT stage to be honest. There's plenty of stages for the climbers in the next week, we've had a few sprint stages, but we've had a TT course for puncheurs instead of rouleurs.

Not a surprise that Alaphilippe is still in the lead after that, I wouldn't be surprised if he survives tomorrow too, but I expect a Yates Giro 2018 style crack sooner or later in the mountains.

im glad we havent had a long flat TT, theyre boring to watch and coupled with less climbing get people like wiggins into yellow. I prefer a bit more drama.

Each to their own, but I disagree. Maybe it's because racing my club 10 on a wednesday evening I feel more able to relate to a ITT than a mountain stage.

Alejandrosdog

philwint wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

I'm just disappointed in the lack of a 'proper' TT stage to be honest. There's plenty of stages for the climbers in the next week, we've had a few sprint stages, but we've had a TT course for puncheurs instead of rouleurs.

Not a surprise that Alaphilippe is still in the lead after that, I wouldn't be surprised if he survives tomorrow too, but I expect a Yates Giro 2018 style crack sooner or later in the mountains.

im glad we havent had a long flat TT, theyre boring to watch and coupled with less climbing get people like wiggins into yellow. I prefer a bit more drama.

Each to their own, but I disagree. Maybe it's because racing my club 10 on a wednesday evening I feel more able to relate to a ITT than a mountain stage.

ahhhh this is the curse of the british the club ten. i find them dull and predictable and prefer sporting courses

ShutupJens

Alejandrosdog wrote:

philwint wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

I'm just disappointed in the lack of a 'proper' TT stage to be honest. There's plenty of stages for the climbers in the next week, we've had a few sprint stages, but we've had a TT course for puncheurs instead of rouleurs.

Not a surprise that Alaphilippe is still in the lead after that, I wouldn't be surprised if he survives tomorrow too, but I expect a Yates Giro 2018 style crack sooner or later in the mountains.

im glad we havent had a long flat TT, theyre boring to watch and coupled with less climbing get people like wiggins into yellow. I prefer a bit more drama.

Each to their own, but I disagree. Maybe it's because racing my club 10 on a wednesday evening I feel more able to relate to a ITT than a mountain stage.

ahhhh this is the curse of the british the club ten. i find them dull and predictable and prefer sporting courses

I prefer riding flat drag strips but prefer spectating/appreciate the difficulty of "proper" courses. I don't think that riding a 10 on an evening really adds to the experience of watching TTs however, the flat ones I wouldn't even bother with the highlights usually

tailwindhome

I think this is one of those results which shouldn't really be as surprising as it is.

awavey

not sure how interesting people will find this or not as you cant really compare I know, but I thought Id share it, though Ive not bothered to check its accurate

but apparently someone has worked out approx time of Marianne Vos from the start of the last uphill section (Rue Mulot) to the finish (440 m) (whilst putting her hands in the air and slowing at the line) 41"

Approx. time of Alaphilippe in time trial, on a TT bike (going full gas) on the same section... 41"


discuss

N0bodyOfTheGoat

awavey wrote:

not sure how interesting people will find this or not as you cant really compare I know, but I thought Id share it, though Ive not bothered to check its accurate

but apparently someone has worked out approx time of Marianne Vos from the start of the last uphill section (Rue Mulot) to the finish (440 m) (whilst putting her hands in the air and slowing at the line) 41"

Approx. time of Alaphilippe in time trial, on a TT bike (going full gas) on the same section... 41"


discuss

Aero/speed gains of peleton on road bike > TT solo effort shocker.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

awavey wrote:

not sure how interesting people will find this or not as you cant really compare I know, but I thought Id share it, though Ive not bothered to check its accurate

but apparently someone has worked out approx time of Marianne Vos from the start of the last uphill section (Rue Mulot) to the finish (440 m) (whilst putting her hands in the air and slowing at the line) 41"

Approx. time of Alaphilippe in time trial, on a TT bike (going full gas) on the same section... 41"


discuss

Aero/speed gains of being in peleton on road bike > TT solo effort shocker.

Pross

NitrousOxide wrote:

awavey wrote:

not sure how interesting people will find this or not as you cant really compare I know, but I thought Id share it, though Ive not bothered to check its accurate

but apparently someone has worked out approx time of Marianne Vos from the start of the last uphill section (Rue Mulot) to the finish (440 m) (whilst putting her hands in the air and slowing at the line) 41"

Approx. time of Alaphilippe in time trial, on a TT bike (going full gas) on the same section... 41"


discuss

Aero/speed gains of being in peloton on road bike > TT solo effort shocker.

She was solo on that section though which is why I assume it was used. That said, she would have had a relatively easy ride prior to that point.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Pross wrote:

NitrousOxide wrote:

awavey wrote:

not sure how interesting people will find this or not as you cant really compare I know, but I thought Id share it, though Ive not bothered to check its accurate

but apparently someone has worked out approx time of Marianne Vos from the start of the last uphill section (Rue Mulot) to the finish (440 m) (whilst putting her hands in the air and slowing at the line) 41"

Approx. time of Alaphilippe in time trial, on a TT bike (going full gas) on the same section... 41"


discuss

Aero/speed gains of being in peloton on road bike > TT solo effort shocker.

She was solo on that section though which is why I assume it was used. That said, she would have had a relatively easy ride prior to that point.

Sorry, being thick... Again (read scenario as 41mins, somehow thinking it was whole TT course, which is even more silly because JA won the TT in ~35mins). My brain is stuck in neutral after an unplanned late night for me last night, cannot get going today. :oops:

How true they are, Google reckons Vos is ~58Kg and Alaphillipe ~62Kg.

If the wind was comparable, W/Kg?

dabber

ShutupJens wrote:

Dabber wrote:

Kingstonian wrote:

I guess the plan tomorrow won't be for G to go for broke but for him and his team to slowly but surely turn the screw until Alaphilippe pops. I don't see him having the team to fully provide support day after day so he'll get isolated at some point against a team that will have 3 or 4 of G's lieutenants still there.

And if he just sits on G's wheel?

Then you adapt your tactics. The race isn't over after tomorrow

Well, they never managed that.

Pross

WVA looking at chasing compensation for his crash. Were the barriers that bad?

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/wout-van-aert-jumbo-visma-may-seek-compensation-tour-de-france-crash-438295

RichN95.

Pross wrote:

WVA looking at chasing compensation for his crash. Were the barriers that bad?

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/wout-van-aert-jumbo-visma-may-seek-compensation-tour-de-france-crash-438295

I can't see that he's got a case. He just rode too close to the barriers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwJhLhhdKv4

Pross

RichN95 wrote:

Pross wrote:

WVA looking at chasing compensation for his crash. Were the barriers that bad?

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/wout-van-aert-jumbo-visma-may-seek-compensation-tour-de-france-crash-438295

I can't see that he's got a case. He just rode too close to the barriers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwJhLhhdKv4

That was my thought too although maybe solid advertising hoardings would have been better. You obviously need a foot of some sort to stop them falling over but barriers have improved a lot in recent years.

m.r.m.

A lawsuit of this nature might at least result in better safety conditions for the riders, since the union is too weak to get much done.

awavey

alt, just dont ride so darn close to the barriers, you wont win the stage by hundreths of a second, but you sure can lose it, and you cant tell from that video if its "the placement of the barriers", or morethe placement of the bike, for all we can see from it, its his TT special handlebars that tangle up. a solid barrier wouldnt have been any better.

I get the reason theres a lawsuit because theres medical costs and sponsorship commitments etc etc teams cant afford not to try, but that just has to fall under the stuff happens in a bike race category

and in terms of barriers they should get rid of its those triangle stick out ones at shoulder height they should improve for safety.

Pross

awavey wrote:

alt, just dont ride so darn close to the barriers, you wont win the stage by hundreths of a second, but you sure can lose it, and you cant tell from that video if its "the placement of the barriers", or morethe placement of the bike, for all we can see from it, its his TT special handlebars that tangle up. a solid barrier wouldnt have been any better.

I get the reason theres a lawsuit because theres medical costs and sponsorship commitments etc etc teams cant afford not to try, but that just has to fall under the stuff happens in a bike race category

and in terms of barriers they should get rid of its those triangle stick out ones at shoulder height they should improve for safety.

I wonder if he's used to taking corners to the extreme in cross which is more forgiving? You often see them using the stakes supporting the fencing to help themselves make tight turns. Ultimately the barriers are the limits of the course, they're visible to everyone and you should adjust your line to avoid coming into contact with them. It's like an F1 driver complaining because they crashed after spinning on the paint on the over-run area.

However, I guess the argument in this case is more whether they were design in such a way to minimise the danger to anyone making an error of judgement. I do think having the fabric advertising banners may have led to the bars getting tangled up when a solid board wouldn't have.