Wife of ISIS fighter wants to return to the UK

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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Alejandrosdog wrote:
    I think you’re spectacularly confused. Isis and the kkk are entirely different, different crimes, different objectives, different locations different ideologies.

    There is no difference. Both organisations are fascist, authoritarian monotheistic regimes who pursue their objectives through violence. Leaving aside their bullshit religions, their ideologies are fundamentally the same.

    There is a difference and quite an important one. ISIS is a proscribed organisation whilst as far as I can tell the KKK isn't. That's what presumably allows the Government to satisfy the other requirements of revoking citizenship.

    The fact that the KKK is not banned in the US should not make them any more valid than ISIS. Both are founded on hate, violence, monotheism and direct action - and makes them pretty much identical, IMO.

    I don't disagree with you but purely in legal terms I suspect it would make an important difference that one is a proscribed organisation and the other isn't.

    You know the point I was making, right?

    Yes. A fictitious whataboutery.

    That’s not a point really is it, Bally?
    _
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Facilitating and bringing this ISIS terrorist back to the UK is only supported by terrorist sympathisers.

    How does that work then? I only ask because I support allowing her back, but am definitely not a terrorist sympathiser. Genuinely confused.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    Robert88 wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Facilitating and bringing this ISIS terrorist back to the UK is only supported by terrorist sympathisers.

    I would much prefer, and 100% support, making a positive action of this episode and rescuing one of the deserving Syrian families from this refugee camp, while leaving this terrorist to deal with the decisions that have led her to be where she is now. She can rot in hell as far as I am concerned.

    How do you know she is guilty of terrorism? Has there been a fair trial that I missed?

    Or is it only the likes of Coopster the 1st who get to decide?

    She joined a terrorist organisation. That organisation wants to wipe out western civilisation.

    She shows no remorse for her actions or that of the terrorist organisation she is a member of.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,996
    rjsterry wrote:
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:
    So if a 15 year old Asian girl is courted by Muslim men, she dererves to end up in a refugee camp having given birth on her own.

    If a 15 year old White girl is courted by Muslim men, it's sickening grooming?

    You mean the 15 year old who used her sister's passport, boarded a plane to Turkey and then made her way to Syria of her own volition? The one that has shown no remorse for her actions and by her own admissions is not bothered about the atrocities she witnessed?

    I am ambivalent as to whether she is allowed to return or not, as I doubt she would make the top 100 potential security risks of the radicals already here. But please don't paint her as a poor victim.

    Yes that's pretty much how grooming works.

    In the interviews I have seen she comes across as knowing what she was doing and states that she doesn't regret going. She doesn't see herself as the victim that you perceive.
    But hey ho, bring her back and give her a council house if that is your wont. Poor lamb!
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,269
    What's a council house?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    edited February 2019
    Ballysmate wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:
    So if a 15 year old Asian girl is courted by Muslim men, she dererves to end up in a refugee camp having given birth on her own.

    If a 15 year old White girl is courted by Muslim men, it's sickening grooming?

    You mean the 15 year old who used her sister's passport, boarded a plane to Turkey and then made her way to Syria of her own volition? The one that has shown no remorse for her actions and by her own admissions is not bothered about the atrocities she witnessed?

    I am ambivalent as to whether she is allowed to return or not, as I doubt she would make the top 100 potential security risks of the radicals already here. But please don't paint her as a poor victim.

    Yes that's pretty much how grooming works.

    In the interviews I have seen she comes across as knowing what she was doing and states that she doesn't regret going. She doesn't see herself as the victim that you perceive.
    But hey ho, bring her back and give her a council house if that is your wont. Poor lamb!

    The authorities seemed to think she was a victim at the time. They just didn't get around to doing anything about it until after she'd left. Passport control was clearly pretty lax as well.

    I do find the whole lack of remorse angle pretty odd. Nobody commenting here has seen more than a couple of minutes of footage of her on which to judge that. If she'd cried a bit for the camera that would have made it better? We have laws covering membership of proscribed organisations - not that IS
    bothers with formal membership - and on the face of it it wouldn't seem difficult to prove so try her on that basis.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,459
    Do the UK not seek extradition of terrorists anymore?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,459
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Facilitating and bringing this ISIS terrorist back to the UK is only supported by terrorist sympathisers..

    It will come as a surprise to Jacob Rees Moog that he is a terrorist sympathiser.

    Or it will come as a surprise to you that Jacob Rees Moog has such poor judgement
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    orraloon wrote:
    What's a council house?

    It's a house that the council lives in ;)
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Facilitating and bringing this ISIS terrorist back to the UK is only supported by terrorist sympathisers..

    It will come as a surprise to Jacob Rees Moog that he is a terrorist sympathiser.

    Or it will come as a surprise to you that Jacob Rees Moog has such poor judgement

    On this JRM is wrong, and clouded by his pro-life views, another view of his that I also disagree with!

    Now she has had her British passport revoked, she is on TV saying she expected more sympathy because of her position. Fortunately Sajid Javid is the right person at the right time doing the right thing.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    On this JRM is wrong, and clouded by his pro-life views, another view of his that I also disagree with!

    Never thought I'd see the day when someone was complaining that JRM was not right-wing enough.. :lol:
  • Alejandrosdog
    Alejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    Robert88 wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Facilitating and bringing this ISIS terrorist back to the UK is only supported by terrorist sympathisers.

    I would much prefer, and 100% support, making a positive action of this episode and rescuing one of the deserving Syrian families from this refugee camp, while leaving this terrorist to deal with the decisions that have led her to be where she is now. She can rot in hell as far as I am concerned.

    How do you know she is guilty of terrorism? Has there been a fair trial that I missed?

    Or is it only the likes of Coopster the 1st who get to decide?
    At the very least we know she’s guilty of providing material support to isis. How? She’s told us.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,610
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Do the UK not seek extradition of terrorists anymore?

    There is no extradition agreement with Syria or the group that is holding her so it's not possible to extradite her.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Do the UK not seek extradition of terrorists anymore?

    As our resident Irish expert can you confirm how we treated british girls who moved to Ireland to be with members of terrorist organisations?
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,459
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Facilitating and bringing this ISIS terrorist back to the UK is only supported by terrorist sympathisers..

    It will come as a surprise to Jacob Rees Moog that he is a terrorist sympathiser.

    Or it will come as a surprise to you that Jacob Rees Moog has such poor judgement

    On this JRM is wrong


    You'd accept that he isn't a terrorist sympathizer, and no doubt you'd want to retract that accusation from other people who you believe to be wrong.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,459
    Dorset Boy wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Do the UK not seek extradition of terrorists anymore?

    There is no extradition agreement with Syria or the group that is holding her so it's not possible to extradite her.

    There's not even any need. She'll come home voluntarily
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    What if she was a white British female?

    Suppose it has some similarities to the drug smuggler situation who got caught in Egypt and people said she should do time for her crimes in the county she was apprehended in.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Robert88 wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Facilitating and bringing this ISIS terrorist back to the UK is only supported by terrorist sympathisers.

    I would much prefer, and 100% support, making a positive action of this episode and rescuing one of the deserving Syrian families from this refugee camp, while leaving this terrorist to deal with the decisions that have led her to be where she is now. She can rot in hell as far as I am concerned.

    How do you know she is guilty of terrorism? Has there been a fair trial that I missed?

    Or is it only the likes of Coopster the 1st who get to decide?

    I think so.

    https://newsthump.com/2019/02/20/citizenship-eligibility-now-based-on-how-much-daily-mail-readers-like-you/?fbclid=IwAR1RWjEg99HI0WUZp6Vffa7U3va6U0IVkG_1vwnnAvS-dmE2iltiLczrzs4
    Faster than a tent.......
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108
    Jez mon wrote:
    So if a 15 year old Asian girl is courted by Muslim men, she dererves to end up in a refugee camp having given birth on her own.

    If a 15 year old White girl is courted by Muslim men, it's sickening grooming?

    It's not quite the same is it, the white (they weren't all white but I'll go with it) girls are not supporting a regime that believes in and was enacting the enslavement, rape and murder of those with a different ideology. The white girls were groomed but past a certain point they were subject to direct force and threats, I'm not aware of this woman being threatened with her sister being raped or herself being beaten to stay with IS.

    I actually believe we'll be forced to take her back anyway and more than that I believe we should do because that is almost certainly what international law demands but I don't think your analogy stands up.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Facilitating and bringing this ISIS terrorist back to the UK is only supported by terrorist sympathisers..

    It will come as a surprise to Jacob Rees Moog that he is a terrorist sympathiser.

    Or it will come as a surprise to you that Jacob Rees Moog has such poor judgement

    On this JRM is wrong


    You'd accept that he isn't a terrorist sympathizer, and no doubt you'd want to retract that accusation from other people who you believe to be wrong.

    Give him until 6pm tomorrow to retract it ;)
  • slowmart
    slowmart Posts: 4,516
    Pure comedy gold, It’s up there with the thread about silver bar tape and the owners reaction to a couple of comments.
    “Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”

    Desmond Tutu
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    Trump agrees with Coopster:

    Hoda Muthana: Trump says IS woman barred from US return

    Bizarrely (if you forget it's Donald Trump):
    President Trump recently told the UK and other European countries to take back and put on trial Islamic State (IS) fighters captured in the final battle against the group.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,459
    Imposter wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Facilitating and bringing this ISIS terrorist back to the UK is only supported by terrorist sympathisers..

    It will come as a surprise to Jacob Rees Moog that he is a terrorist sympathiser.

    Or it will come as a surprise to you that Jacob Rees Moog has such poor judgement

    On this JRM is wrong


    You'd accept that he isn't a terrorist sympathizer, and no doubt you'd want to retract that accusation from other people who you believe to be wrong.

    Give him until 6pm tomorrow to retract it ;)

    Ha!
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • earth
    earth Posts: 934
    Here's a idea from left-field. Let them have a island somewhere where they can build their caliphate. Then we can kick them all out, point nukes and artillery at it and leave them to live it up. If Allah loves them they will be fine otherwise they will have to change their ways in order to survive.

    :lol::lol:
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    I thought there already was a fundamentalist, authoritarian, closed, non-secular Islamic state, called Saudi Arabia..?
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,593
    Imposter wrote:
    I thought there already was a fundamentalist, authoritarian, closed, non-secular Islamic state, called Saudi Arabia..?

    Yeah but they're OK as they buy their weapons from us.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    So we have a 19yo girl (19 is still young) who ran away from home to join what she considered an ideal 4 years prior - in that time she's seen more death and destruction than anyone on here would like to see in their lifetimes.

    She's lost 2 children and the 3rd will be at risk.

    Let's look at the child first - born to a British Citizen (I believe she was "still" British at the time of the birth) - I assume that means the child is entitled to British Citizenship - the child has a family here in the UK - there is no reason I can see that the child shouldn't be returned. The child should not be deprived purely because of mistakes made by the mother.

    As for the girl - knee jerk says "Stay where you are - you're not welcome here" - if you still sympathise with ISIS after everything you've been through then what good will come of you returning to the UK - but then I'm reminded of the Prodigal Son (no I'm not religious, but the law and morality in UK is based on Christianity) - whilst the girl may not be repentant, perhaps thats due to influences outside her control - returning to the UK - or at least returning to the western world where she could be de-radicalised may change that - if there's a small chance of that happening, shouldn't we (as a country) try it?

    AFAWK, she's been a housewife - not making bombs or killing others - and whilst just being a housewife is supporting the terrorist regime, you have to look at the circumstances around how that came about - perhaps she's not culpable for getting into the situation she's found herself in.

    Finally - think about if it was your child who had become a drug dealer - decided they'd had enough and wanted to stop being a drug dealer, but didn't regret any of it - the only way they could stop would be to move back in your home with you. You have other children in the house too.
    What do you do? Point blank refuse? Or try and facilitate a return whilst minimising the risk to the rest of the household?
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,593
    With regards to your point about the child, one expert I heard talking said that as the child was born before the mother's citizenship was revoked then it is a British citizen and would be entitled to be brought back to the country. Whether the mother is prepared to be separated from the child is of course another matter.

    I think both will eventually return but that when it happens and there is public uproar (generated by the usual media outlet suspects) the Government want to be able to say 'hey, we tried to stop this but got over-ruled by a bunch of out-of-touch liberals in the judiciary'.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,610
    She has said she has seen plenty of cut off heads in buckets.
    I'm not sure those are the sort of things you'd see if you were 'just a housewife'.

    With regard to the baby, the father is Dutch so the baby could just as easily be taken in by the Netherlands as by the UK, especially as neither country is particularly likely to leave the child with the mother.

    I'm still not clear how she can get herself back to the UK with no money, no travel documents and whilst effectively a prisoner in a camp in a country where the UK has no consular representation and no extradition agreements.
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,568
    I think she should come home and face trial here. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not a terrorist sympathiser.

    If I remember rightly, when these girls first left, there was a huge (international?) effort to find them and bring them home. What's changed?
    Wilier Izoard XP

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