Freeman Medical Practitioner Tribunal .Manchester

Wheelspinner

RichN95. said:

Wheelspinner said:

Still think this is not that difficult to guess. My take is that Freeman is (again) lying, and that the Testogel was never for Sutton. But since it was discovered by chance and turned into this omnishambles, Freeman is taking the opportunity to pay back on Sutton for his other behaviour. He needed some stupid story that some people might believe and this is it. More importantly, the story had to also be difficult to *disprove*.

Sutton can't actually tell the truth either, because to do so means he'd implicate whoever it really *was* for, which kind of blows up the whole Sky / BC thing around the London Olympics time in particular. That little story would be rather more of a news item than whether he can manage the horizontal tango without help.

They say that the art of law is telling a better story than the opposition and right now the only story in town is the Right Honourable Member for Sutton.

At the moment the competing argument seems to be that it was for a doper, but you won't know him he goes to another school.

I agree. The fairly obvious detail that Testogel is not exactly the ideal treatment for ED anyway seems to be ignored. Two minutes reading the notes on the stuff tells you that, and if anyone hasn't had a look at the manufacturer's data sheet, they should. Advice is that "intimate contact" with (in particular) a female should be avoided for *HOURS* after application, because the effects are transferable by simple skin contact. If she's is pregnant already, any unborn child may inadvertently develop unwanted maleness characteristics from that skin contact and transferred effect. Recommendation is to wear clothing to cover the skin when you do get jiggy.

Hardly a romantic booster, is it?

So, was Sutton really that uninformed and plain stupid to insist this stuff was the ticket to ride for him, against any and all half-competent medical advice? Would he also - as senior performance management in BC at the time - risk ordering a banned substance through official suppliers just to solve his issue rather than go to *any* GP for a 5 minute consultation to get a script for the correct medication such as Viagra or Cialis?

Sure he would.

Oh look, Brooklyn Bridge is for sale again.

ridgerider

But why would the Doc lay the blame on the classroom bully, with everything that that triggers, rather than pick some more innocuous work colleague?

Wheelspinner

ridgerider said:

But why would the Doc lay the blame on the classroom bully, with everything that that triggers, rather than pick some more innocuous work colleague?

Easy. Payback. Freeman is unarguably considerably smarter than Sutton. He did get into and out of medical school, whereas Sutton never read anything, rode a bike lots and screamed "encouragement" at other bike riders for a very lucrative living.

I'm sure Freeman is very well aware of exactly what mess he'd cause by picking on Sutton instead of Greg from Accounts, but is banking on the fact that nobody - Sutton or anyone else in Sky / BC - want the real facts revealed as they will *all* lose their credibility and/or jobs. He may not like Sutton much, but there might still be people he doesn't want to throw under the bus.

The sad fact is had Freeman done his job half-properly in terms of admin and paperwork they'd not be in this mess anyway.

Pross

Roan must be torn on this. He wants Sutton to be a lying bully but if that is the case then it takes away from his longed for scenario that the delivery was part of a doping programme and BC and / or Sky.

RichN95.

Wheelspinner said:

I agree. The fairly obvious detail that Testogel is not exactly the ideal treatment for ED anyway seems to be ignored. Two minutes reading the notes on the stuff tells you that, and if anyone hasn't had a look at the manufacturer's data sheet, they should. Advice is that "intimate contact" with (in particular) a female should be avoided for *HOURS* after application, because the effects are transferable by simple skin contact. If she's is pregnant already, any unborn child may inadvertently develop unwanted maleness characteristics from that skin contact and transferred effect. Recommendation is to wear clothing to cover the skin when you do get jiggy.

Hardly a romantic booster, is it?

So, was Sutton really that uninformed and plain stupid to insist this stuff was the ticket to ride for him, against any and all half-competent medical advice? Would he also - as senior performance management in BC at the time - risk ordering a banned substance through official suppliers just to solve his issue rather than go to *any* GP for a 5 minute consultation to get a script for the correct medication such as Viagra or Cialis?

Sure he would.

Oh look, Brooklyn Bridge is for sale again.

Unless "Peter Brock: How Good Is This" has a detailed analysis of failing male libido in middle age, then I doubt Sutton knows little more than testosterone for potency. And any cyclist, clean or dirty, knows testosterone. This is probably not just about the Mur de Sutton, but general vim and vigour of a man who would eventually marry someone 20 years his junior

ddraver

@Wheelspinner You're creating stuff that isn't there to fit your narrative at the moment, I find this rarely ends well.

Why didn't he go to his GP - because his GP wouldn't give him what he wanted, Viagra may put a little lead back in the pencil but a bit of testosterone would perk up everything else too and who wouldn't want to feel young again with a new, cute, young bird on the side..?

So why didn't he go down Harley street and get Dr. N. Riviera to give it to him alongside his botox for 65-year-old gold diggers and fake boobs? Because he could, apparently, bully the doctor just down the hall into doing it and probably expense it to Sport England too. There's nothing illegal about taking testosterone in the UK if you re not competing - https://endocrinenews.endocrine.org/feeling-good-testosterone-gel-and-older-men/
https://www.theindependentpharmacy.co.uk/low-testosterone/testogel#treatment-directions

Again, Throughout this whole case, I cast my mind back to why a Sports Doctor might feel so apparently relaxed about injecting recovery and using drugs to put a little spring back in people's step? Because he spent his previous years working for a football team. As we all know, footballers don't dope because it's, like, about skill, not fitness...right?

Why did the coach of an elite sporting set up realize that this was not a good idea - cos testosterone, and a bibliography of 1, apparently doesn't do much for brain function.

You re right about keeping on top of the paperwork though...

As I said above, the supplier didn't usually keep testosterone suggesting - although in no way proving - that this may have been a 1 off purchase, and Freeman has apparently felt happy to admit to everything so far, EXCEPT that it was for an athlete. I don't see why that would make a difference to him personally much anymore... One suspects his career as a Team Doctor is over.

RichN95.

ddraver said:

Again, Throughout this whole case I cast my mind back to why a Sports Doctor might feel so apparently relaxed about injecting recovery and using drugs to put a little spring back in peoples step? Because he spent his previous years working for a football team and, as we all know, footballers don't dope because it's, like, about skill not fitness...

I'd suggest that there's a clear distinction between what is against the rules and what is not. What is cheating and what is not. And if it's to enhance personal wellbeing of a coach then where's the foul?

ddraver

That was the Brailsford, 2012 approach for shizzle...

RichN95.

Ultimately this is all Becky James's fault

I was going explain the chain of events, but I got confused and then started to bore myself.


However, this also seems to me like Game of Thrones. After several seasons fans have in their minds how this will end and are angry when it doesn't go that way (and we don't know which way it will go_

Wheelspinner

RichN95. said:

Unless "Peter Brock: How Good Is This" has a detailed analysis of failing male libido in middle age, then I doubt Sutton knows little more than testosterone for potency. And any cyclist, clean or dirty, knows testosterone. This is probably not just about the Mur de Sutton, but general vim and vigour of a man who would eventually marry someone 20 years his junior

Much as we’re all happy to paint Sutton as an obnoxious dullard, I think you’re being a little harsh. He’s reached a very senior position in one of the highest profile professional sports organisations in the UK in the crucial period leading into the London Olympics in a sport at which GB had unprecedented success at those very Olympics. He did that as someone specifically involved in athlete performance development.

British Cycling and Sky employed him over how many other potential candidates? Why?

I’d hazard a guess that despite a lack of formal medical qualifications he could likely lecture you, me and almost anyone else on these pages (Mad Malx excepted perhaps) on the various drugs available to assist with a hundred different conditions, directly related to performance or not, and whether they are legal, banned, or TUE dependent.

Even the thickest of village idiots knows Viagra is used for ED. Its been on market since 2000, and in a truly wonderful piece of irony in this specific case, in the UK in 2007, there was a program where Boots sold Viagra directly over the counter after consultation with a pharmacist, not even a GP required. This program was implemented in MANCHESTER. Remind me, where is the BC track cycling program based again?

Sutton could have gone out on his lunch break, popped into the local chemist and got what he needed, no script required.

ddraver

Yes, but it wasn't just about getting a stiffy, everyone has focused on that because deep down inside we re all 13 years old...

larkim

At this stage with his career already in tatters it stretches credulity to me for Freeman to be making up another fake story, whereas Sutton has only one option for "winning" in this scenario, which is to vehemently deny everything that implicates him. Unless the view is that Sutton ought to take the fertility issue on the chin for the sake of the reputation of BC/Sky as being clean.

Freeman might be lying, but for now that seems to be the unlikeliest of the scenarios.

ddraver

Yeah, but when your self image makes Crocodile Dundee look like an effeminate pansy....it's difficult...

("That's not a hard on...")

slowbike

Could it be that Freeman ordered the patches - at the behest of a senior (possibly Sutton) without knowing exactly who it was for or why?
It's not hard to picture "the boss" saying - don't ask questions, just bloody order them.

Deniability - it was a verbal instruction and technically, the doctor ordered the drugs, not the person demanding them.

larkim

But if that was the case, why make the fertility accusations against Sutton? Why not just say "Sutton told me to get them, I ordered them without questionning that, and I shouldn't have". He's going to get sanctioned for just about every other charge on the sheet, I don't think admitting that would see him any worse off? Unless both Sutton and Freeman are deliberately lying to avoid anyone giving out the truth?

slowbike

larkim said:

But if that was the case, why make the fertility accusations against Sutton? Why not just say "Sutton told me to get them, I ordered them without questionning that, and I shouldn't have". He's going to get sanctioned for just about every other charge on the sheet, I don't think admitting that would see him any worse off? Unless both Sutton and Freeman are deliberately lying to avoid anyone giving out the truth?

well - there needs to be an excuse for ordering them - perhaps it was offered as an excuse or suggested as a reason for getting them. Probably more likely the later - I can't imagine Sutton suggesting he can't - but if it's suggested and you think it unlikely to be found out you could imagine the suggestion just being waved through.

I kinda hope that it was for Sutton - or one of the administrative staff - but with all this fuss being made of it, you have to wonder what it was actually for - could it be administered without the athlete knowing? Could it be introduced in the massage oils that were used - it would be diluted, so microdoses - which give a small effect but less chance of being detected. I hope it's not.

There is something odd about the whole thing - if there was a legal explanation then, if it really was a private matter (which to be honest, if Sutton needed them, that's personal to him) you'd think they'd be able to do this behind closed doors.

bompington

If, as seems to be the case, Freeman's only defence is that he was bullied into it, then Sutton couldn't really have put on a better performance, could he?
I can just see the scene in the conference room:
"I think he wants to say it! I think he's pissed off that he's gotta hide from this. I think he wants to say that he made a command decision and that's the end of it."

ddraver

In hindsight a private session where a GP found out what problems Sutton was having and what Freeman prescribed/sourced for him may have been better than yesterday's shouting match

I think the thought of uncovering a doping scandal caused a few more trousers to twitch though

DeVlaeminck

I'm not saying these patches weren't for Sutton but that's only one of several credible explanations. The doping of pro athletes is another - say what we like the fact is if this was some Italian pro-conti outfit we'd not be so quick to dismiss that option.

There's also the possibility that they were for someone in the organisation who just fancied boosting their performance in the gym or on the bike at an amateur level.
Maybe Dave Brailsford's vanity made him get the Dr to order them, maybe the doctor himself wanted to use them or perhaps he was ordering them for someone outside of BC - perhaps he had a little business on the side supplying stuff BC paid for and he doesn't want the legal follow up if that came out - who knows there are several possibilities here.

larkim

Agree with that. Though first you have to make a presumption that Freeman is currently lying.

slowbike

larkim said:

Agree with that. Though first you have to make a presumption that Freeman is currently lying.

well - he's admitted to lying - so it's a fair presumption - no?

smithy21

Boooo. Shows over! Sutton not coming back.

larkim

slowbike said:

larkim said:

Agree with that. Though first you have to make a presumption that Freeman is currently lying.

well - he's admitted to lying - so it's a fair presumption - no?

Well, he's admitted he was lying previously. Whether that means he is now not lying...? The question is how will we know?

ddraver

https://twitter.com/JessVarnish/status/1194668699938164736?s=19

😋

RichN95.

ddraver said:

https://twitter.com/JessVarnish/status/1194668699938164736?s=19

😋

The pedant in me feels the need to point out that she was the plaintiff in her case, so it was in her interests to give evidence.

awavey

Wheelspinner said:

I agree. The fairly obvious detail that Testogel is not exactly the ideal treatment for ED anyway seems to be ignored. Two minutes reading the notes on the stuff tells you that, and if anyone hasn't had a look at the manufacturer's data sheet, they should. Advice is that "intimate contact" with (in particular) a female should be avoided for *HOURS* after application, because the effects are transferable by simple skin contact. If she's is pregnant already, any unborn child may inadvertently develop unwanted maleness characteristics from that skin contact and transferred effect. Recommendation is to wear clothing to cover the skin when you do get jiggy.

the ones I found googling said you apply it to your shoulders or upper arms, which definitely surprised me, in a thats not how I thought that bit of you blokes anatomy was supposed to work,unless it gives you hairier palms

slowbike

Look at the charges - it was patches not the gel - not looked at how long they take to work - but you’d know if you’re sticking a patch on you.

ddraver

I don't think anyone is suggesting you rub the gel on yer willy to make it work...or put a patch on it for that matter...

RichN95.

slowbike said:

Look at the charges - it was patches not the gel - not looked at how long they take to work - but you’d know if you’re sticking a patch on you.

It says "30 sachets of Testogel"

webboo

ddraver said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting you rub the gel on yer willy to make it work...or put a patch on it for that matter...

“ Can you just rub this gel on my w*lly. Honestly it’s for a medical condition”