Freeman Medical Practitioner Tribunal .Manchester
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I think the usual suspects started losing interest as soon as the penny dropped that their readers are highly unlikely to listen to the details of this farce and agree that the individuals involved were nonetheless capable of running an absolutely undetectable and undiscoverable doping program. It's just not very likely, is it?0
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Has the fire gone out of this since Sutton taking all the oxygen?0
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I think all the oxygen went out of it when the Daily Mail and Dan Roan realised Freeman's testimony wasnt going to be,
"THEY DOPED!!
I DOPED THEM ALL AND YOU KNOW WHAT?
I'D DO IT AGAIN!!!
AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAAA!!!"We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
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Well they didn’t order some performance enhancing drugs to be delivered to their HQ, so there is that. Not sure a delivery that was 100% discovered counts as being undiscoverable.Lanterne_Rogue said:I think the usual suspects started losing interest as soon as the penny dropped that their readers are highly unlikely to listen to the details of this farce and agree that the individuals involved were nonetheless capable of running an absolutely undetectable and undiscoverable doping program. It's just not very likely, is it?
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Some being a very small quantity as a one off.smithy21 said:
Well they didn’t order some performance enhancing drugs to be delivered to their HQ, so there is that. Not sure a delivery that was 100% discovered counts as being undiscoverable.Lanterne_Rogue said:I think the usual suspects started losing interest as soon as the penny dropped that their readers are highly unlikely to listen to the details of this farce and agree that the individuals involved were nonetheless capable of running an absolutely undetectable and undiscoverable doping program. It's just not very likely, is it?
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still smouldering along it seems https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2019/11/25/dr-richard-freemans-medical-tribunal-missed-chance-hearnicole/0
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I don't see what Nicole Cooke could offer proceedings given that she probably rarely saw the protagonists. Unless...awavey said:still smouldering along it seems https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2019/11/25/dr-richard-freemans-medical-tribunal-missed-chance-hearnicole/
...could it be...
that the testosterone was for her!
What. A. Twist!
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I guess Nicole (first British Tour de France winner no less) was set up to agree that SS could be a bit brusque and how wronged she was overall. And her Dad was going to agree.
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RichN95. said:
I don't see what Nicole Cooke could offer proceedings given that she probably rarely saw the protagonists. Unless...awavey said:still smouldering along it seems https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2019/11/25/dr-richard-freemans-medical-tribunal-missed-chance-hearnicole/
well quite, I was hoping theyd at least explain that one abit more, its like theyve gone for the Lionel Hutz each surprise witness is more surprising than before route, or maybe not in this case, before moving for a bad court thingy.
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I think comparing the Grande Boucle Feminine to the Tour is a mugs game. It was a 5 stage race, not a 21 stage GT, so there is no comparison. The only similarities are that it was a bike race and it was in France.carbonclem said:I guess Nicole (first British Tour de France winner no less) was set up to agree that SS could be a bit brusque and how wronged she was overall. And her Dad was going to agree.
If you look at the procycling stats page on Nicole Cooke it's not captured as one of the highlights, whilst her overall win in the Giro del Trentino does. Which shows how highly it's rated.
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andyp said:
I think comparing the Grande Boucle Feminine to the Tour is a mugs game. It was a 5 stage race, not a 21 stage GT, so there is no comparison. The only similarities are that it was a bike race and it was in France.carbonclem said:I guess Nicole (first British Tour de France winner no less) was set up to agree that SS could be a bit brusque and how wronged she was overall. And her Dad was going to agree.
If you look at the procycling stats page on Nicole Cooke it's not captured as one of the highlights, whilst her overall win in the Giro del Trentino does. Which shows how highly it's rated.
Interestingly the Giro del Trentino and La Grande Boucle used to clash with each other in the calendar. Trentino was 2.1, LGB just 2.2. So the so-called 'Tour de France' wasn't even the biggest women's stage race that week. The fact that Cooke refers to herself as a "two time winner of the Tour de France" says a lot about her.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Given what she won in her career, she doesn’t really have say that much. Her results do the talking.0
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Some absolute bore in the Cambridge cycling podcast last night asked about this and they did well to try to be interesting about it. Something about "what have we learned from the last two weeks about sky" etc.
Do these people not know that these things are all about the hilarious anecdotes the guys would normally not be able to publish?
Anyway, the answer was a good effort. Moore made the point that if you look at the way British Cycling did kit development, you can see some parallels, and really, what's the difference? They would bring out all their new fancy olympic kit not all in one go, but one at a time, in competition, usually with a lowly rider, and take tonnes of photos.
Then when they brought all the pieces together and the UCI kicked up a stink, they'd show them a 5 inch thick folder with all the occasions they have already allowed it in competition.
The point being they were always playing a game of cat-and-mouse *just* on the right side of things. Gaming the system but not in a way that breaks the rules.
Why wouldn't you apply that to the medical side too? Which is more unfair?
That aside, unless they can prove the testosterone was specifically for a rider, no-one's been caught doping.0 -
Correct of course. But the flip side is that there should have been no-one other than riders in receipt of any medical treatment at BC, so it's not an unreasonable starting presumption that any medical product ordered to be delivered to BC was for riders.rick_chasey said:
That aside, unless they can prove the testosterone was specifically for a rider, no-one's been caught doping.
It's a presumption that needs some rebutting with something tangible, and that's what's currently missing and what I was certainly hoping Freeman would lift the lid on.
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Nah I think it needs proving with something tangible tbh, not disproving.larkim said:
Correct of course. But the flip side is that there should have been no-one other than riders in receipt of any medical treatment at BC, so it's not an unreasonable starting presumption that any medical product ordered to be delivered to BC was for riders.rick_chasey said:
That aside, unless they can prove the testosterone was specifically for a rider, no-one's been caught doping.
It's a presumption that needs some rebutting with something tangible, and that's what's currently missing and what I was certainly hoping Freeman would lift the lid on.0 -
larkim said:
It's a stupid presumption. Tangiable enough?rick_chasey said:
It's a presumption that needs some rebutting with something tangibldeTwitter: @RichN950 -
Wasn't the death of Txema González part of the reason that the Team Sky medical team was beefed up? So I don't think it's quite accurate to say that we should be presuming that Dr Freeman was only treating and ordering meds for riders.larkim said:
Correct of course. But the flip side is that there should have been no-one other than riders in receipt of any medical treatment at BC, so it's not an unreasonable starting presumption that any medical product ordered to be delivered to BC was for riders.rick_chasey said:
That aside, unless they can prove the testosterone was specifically for a rider, no-one's been caught doping.
It's a presumption that needs some rebutting with something tangible, and that's what's currently missing and what I was certainly hoping Freeman would lift the lid on.0 -
I'm one of the last to accuse organisations / riders / athletes of doping without specific evidence. And I'm not for a moment suggesting that the "starting presumption" that I offered above is any proof or should drive any sanction. But it surely is a legitimate starting point to consider.rick_chasey said:
Nah I think it needs proving with something tangible tbh, not disproving.larkim said:
Correct of course. But the flip side is that there should have been no-one other than riders in receipt of any medical treatment at BC, so it's not an unreasonable starting presumption that any medical product ordered to be delivered to BC was for riders.rick_chasey said:
That aside, unless they can prove the testosterone was specifically for a rider, no-one's been caught doping.
It's a presumption that needs some rebutting with something tangible, and that's what's currently missing and what I was certainly hoping Freeman would lift the lid on.
If no reason for T to be supplied to BC can be given, even if there is no proof of doping, what ought a reasonable person to conclude about the situation? I'm probably using it incorrectly, but isn't it an Occam's Razor situation? All it takes is a reasonable alternative to be proposed for the delivery, because as has been reported the whole situation with the delivery seems utterly bizarre and crazy.
We know it wasn't delivered in error, and that there was definitely some underhand activity to try to present it as being delivered in error. We know it was delivered.
All we should need is a good reason for it being delivered, other than for use with athletes, and we can walk away from the story. But the absence of one is perplexing.2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
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Yes, that's the question. If it's ordered, it's for someone. Unless it was an error. Which we, I think, now know that it wasn't.rick_chasey said:So who was it for?
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Right. It could have been for all sorts. Neither witnesses have said it's for a rider, right? Who actually has?0
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Yeah, I was harking back to her submission to the DCMS hearing when she found it neccesarry to reference itandyp said:
I think comparing the Grande Boucle Feminine to the Tour is a mugs game. It was a 5 stage race, not a 21 stage GT, so there is no comparison. The only similarities are that it was a bike race and it was in France.carbonclem said:I guess Nicole (first British Tour de France winner no less) was set up to agree that SS could be a bit brusque and how wronged she was overall. And her Dad was going to agree.
If you look at the procycling stats page on Nicole Cooke it's not captured as one of the highlights, whilst her overall win in the Giro del Trentino does. Which shows how highly it's rated.
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Its clear Freeman was Doctor to staff as well as riders, and no reason why that cant be so * , the presumption that it was for a rider is possible but requires proof. They dont have it.larkim said:
Correct of course. But the flip side is that there should have been no-one other than riders in receipt of any medical treatment at BC, so it's not an unreasonable starting presumption that any medical product ordered to be delivered to BC was for riders.rick_chasey said:
That aside, unless they can prove the testosterone was specifically for a rider, no-one's been caught doping.
It's a presumption that needs some rebutting with something tangible, and that's what's currently missing and what I was certainly hoping Freeman would lift the lid on.
* I'm not sure if they've changed anything, but it would seem sensible to tighten up boundries in this area?2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner0 -
It's clear that Freeman over stepped the boundaries imposed on him by management. Hence why he lied to Peters & Burt. Whether this was to get the Testogel for himself or Sutton is unknown. But as part of a doping strategy makes no sense unless Sutton had 'gone rogue', which seems unlikely.carbonclem said:
Its clear Freeman was Doctor to staff as well as riders, and no reason why that cant be so * , the presumption that it was for a rider is possible but requires proof. They dont have it.
* I'm not sure if they've changed anything, but it would seem sensible to tighten up boundries in this area?Twitter: @RichN950 -
I 100% agree that in the context of how this stuff arrived etc it does seem unliielythat it is part of a doping strategy that would no doubt be more sohpisticated and covert.
But if there was an easy answer ("I ordered it to treat a member of staff, but I'm not at liberty to disclose publiclly who that was") we've not heard it, have we?
It could well be for staff. But Freeman hasn't given any evidence that it was or wasn't.2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
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Either it was for Sutton who, due to being a walking avatar of toxic masculinity, can't admit to itlarkim said:I 100% agree that in the context of how this stuff arrived etc it does seem unliielythat it is part of a doping strategy that would no doubt be more sohpisticated and covert.
But if there was an easy answer ("I ordered it to treat a member of staff, but I'm not at liberty to disclose publiclly who that was") we've not heard it, have we?
It could well be for staff. But Freeman hasn't given any evidence that it was or wasn't.
Or it was for Freeman and a doctor ordering drugs for himself is very much against medical rules so would need to cover it up. It's probably a worse infringement than the ones he's admitted to.Twitter: @RichN950 -
If we assume it is for doping the amount ordered would do one rider for one month. As it is the only time they ordered Testogel from this supplier it doesn't seem likely there was a massive team doping program going on. You would have needed another "secret" supplier so there would have been no need to order from this one and risk getting caught.
I do think Sky crossed a "cheating" line with Wiggins though it wasn't illegal doping. Again as it was all done with TUE's it was within the rules. If you were secretly doping it would be better hidden than this. They definitely went beyond a line they held themselves to with the public image.
I suspect Freeman has done something wrong here as a personal doctor. If he can keep enough doubt going about doping and bullying, etc he will hope he may get away with it.
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