LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!
Comments
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It was a genuine question. It wasn't rhetorical. Has the passage of time meant that those once considered cowards are now considered the sensible ones who were subject to considerable abuse?surrey_commuter said:
I have no idea if that is even a rhetorical question and therefore I am not being rude when suggesting that if you are genuinely interested in the answer then Google will be your friendTheBigBean said:
How are first world war conscientious objectors now considered?surrey_commuter said:
I come from a long line of cowards but other than that (and Erskine) you have described myselforraloon said:I don't get this poppy waving.
Me, ok here's a quick summary. Donate via charity DD to the Erskine veterans' hospital; visited the grave on the Somme of an ancestor, plus the nearby Thiepval monument for the name of another whose remains were not identified; been at the Last Post at Menen Gate several times; been in Tyne Cot; been in WWI cemeteries multiple inc for the 'other side'; been on Normandy beaches... and more...
But no way will I wear a poppy in these culture-war times.
Right, bring it on. If you think you're hard enough 😉
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To me having the choice is part of the point and I also know people who refuse to wear one becuase they had relatives "murdered" by the British army.skyblueamateur said:
I don’t think there is an issue outside of some who have a huge issue if people decide not to wear a poppy.surrey_commuter said:I am really struggling to see why this is contentious.
All over the country small groups of people will gather around a war memorial and pay their respects to those who never came back - they have not been forgotten.
If people don't like it then stay at home or go shopping.
Assuming you are referencing James Maclean then he has every right to not wear a poppy but I also get the argument that if he feels that strongly anti-British then why live and work over here?0 -
and I'm not sure Google helps with things like that. One of my relatives was in the first world war. Declared the whole thing a pointless waste of lives. I found his life fascinating, but it was only relatively recently that I read about the abuse he must have suffered for his position, so I am intrigued how the mainstream now views this.0
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Then if you don't like the word "all" what would you replave it with to exclude some arbitrary decision making about who it should not apply to?rjsterry said:
I think most people can read the word 'all' in a non-literal, absolutist sense.surrey_commuter said:
That is because I am discussing it with Rick.rjsterry said:
Bad German? Are we doing goodies and baddies now? I'm unclear what issue you think has to be got around.surrey_commuter said:
Why won’t you answer my genuine question?rick_chasey said:
Not really. It’s school, not uni.surrey_commuter said:
why not leave it at remembering the British dead from all wars?rick_chasey said:
It's more you're sending all the kids to go out and do some "remembering", make wreathes, stand by whatever.surrey_commuter said:
I think that we need a whole new thread on whether schools should teach facts or bend the truth so nobody gets offended.rick_chasey said:
Is an easier sell if your school class is very cosmopolitansurrey_commuter said:
Early signs of wokeism, each country has it's own and ours are those from UK and Commonwealth who died in service.rick_chasey said:
We were told in school it was everyone who died in all wars.... over and over and over.surrey_commuter said:
I feel that neither of you appreciate that the purpose of Armistice/Remembrance/Veterans Day is to honour/remember those servicemen/women who gave their lives for their country in a war.pangolin said:
Bizarre isn't it.rick_chasey said:OK.
Who knew an anti-war much on Armistice Day would be so badly received.
That better?
Can you really not see why many people would be upset and angry about any chance that another organisation would use it to promote their own cause?
I suspect this is a generational change in understanding.
Would be more than a little weird to throw it so wide that it included Hitler and his murdering cronies
Imagine the madness of ending up teaching kids that we fought a war against a political ideology rather than a country.
And you get some old duffer in who is talking about "us" all the time, when, certainly in my class, we had Poles, Bengalis, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Romanians etc.
What ya gonna do, incite some migrant beef?
If you lived in USA what would you do on July 4th to make it more inclusive?
Though I am intrigued at how inclusive you got with German war dead. Was their an attempt made to differentiate between good and bad Germans?
All wars are bad mmmkay etc
Teachers have more pressing needs than the ins and outs of an increasingly irrelevant collective memory event.
How did they get around the “bad German” issue when commemorating all war dead?
I am questioning how you get round the massive Hitler shaped elephant in the room if you commemorate all those who died in WW2
If we can cope with adapting Armistice Day to encompass WW2, the Falklands and other modern conflicts, I think we can cope with other deviations from the earliest commemorations.
"Innocent victims of all wars" sounds good but would exclude professional soldiers.
Are we going to include Rommel but exclude Guy Gibson?0 -
Says as much about him as it does her.secretsqirrel said:So, will she last the day? Sunak says he has confidence in her, usually means a sacking is imminent.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Quite. There is a lot of tail wagging the tory dog going on. I wouldn’t be surprised if she is just allowed to carry on. After all if we are not talking about Braverman then we might turn our attention elsewhere. Covid Enquiry, NHS, cost of living, dirty rivers, housing. etc. etc.pblakeney said:
Says as much about him as it does her.secretsqirrel said:So, will she last the day? Sunak says he has confidence in her, usually means a sacking is imminent.
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That reminds me.
What is happening to our concrete buildings? All gone very quiet.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
It’s a school thing. It’s not as absolute as you make out.surrey_commuter said:
Then if you don't like the word "all" what would you replave it with to exclude some arbitrary decision making about who it should not apply to?rjsterry said:
I think most people can read the word 'all' in a non-literal, absolutist sense.surrey_commuter said:
That is because I am discussing it with Rick.rjsterry said:
Bad German? Are we doing goodies and baddies now? I'm unclear what issue you think has to be got around.surrey_commuter said:
Why won’t you answer my genuine question?rick_chasey said:
Not really. It’s school, not uni.surrey_commuter said:
why not leave it at remembering the British dead from all wars?rick_chasey said:
It's more you're sending all the kids to go out and do some "remembering", make wreathes, stand by whatever.surrey_commuter said:
I think that we need a whole new thread on whether schools should teach facts or bend the truth so nobody gets offended.rick_chasey said:
Is an easier sell if your school class is very cosmopolitansurrey_commuter said:
Early signs of wokeism, each country has it's own and ours are those from UK and Commonwealth who died in service.rick_chasey said:
We were told in school it was everyone who died in all wars.... over and over and over.surrey_commuter said:
I feel that neither of you appreciate that the purpose of Armistice/Remembrance/Veterans Day is to honour/remember those servicemen/women who gave their lives for their country in a war.pangolin said:
Bizarre isn't it.rick_chasey said:OK.
Who knew an anti-war much on Armistice Day would be so badly received.
That better?
Can you really not see why many people would be upset and angry about any chance that another organisation would use it to promote their own cause?
I suspect this is a generational change in understanding.
Would be more than a little weird to throw it so wide that it included Hitler and his murdering cronies
Imagine the madness of ending up teaching kids that we fought a war against a political ideology rather than a country.
And you get some old duffer in who is talking about "us" all the time, when, certainly in my class, we had Poles, Bengalis, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Romanians etc.
What ya gonna do, incite some migrant beef?
If you lived in USA what would you do on July 4th to make it more inclusive?
Though I am intrigued at how inclusive you got with German war dead. Was their an attempt made to differentiate between good and bad Germans?
All wars are bad mmmkay etc
Teachers have more pressing needs than the ins and outs of an increasingly irrelevant collective memory event.
How did they get around the “bad German” issue when commemorating all war dead?
I am questioning how you get round the massive Hitler shaped elephant in the room if you commemorate all those who died in WW2
If we can cope with adapting Armistice Day to encompass WW2, the Falklands and other modern conflicts, I think we can cope with other deviations from the earliest commemorations.
"Innocent victims of all wars" sounds good but would exclude professional soldiers.
Are we going to include Rommel but exclude Guy Gibson?
The kids are made to attend events and do stuff for it.
If you have a class from all over the world and you need them all to just do it so you can get on with it, it’s easier to not go into it, right?
And my facile example: if there are kids from axis countries, you’re just inviting bullying, which you don’t want to deal with.0 -
Why can't schools teach kids how to build things? Like schools n stuff...0
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I think the kids would have more pride in the school if they'd built it.0
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Get them to fix the crumbly concrete.focuszing723 said:I think the kids would have more pride in the school if they'd built it.
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Exactly, bring in that Roman $h1t about using ash in concrete into the building lessons.secretsqirrel said:
Get them to fix the crumbly concrete.focuszing723 said:I think the kids would have more pride in the school if they'd built it.
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I'm fine with the word all. I don't feel a need to define precisely who is and isn't included. It's rather against the spirit of reconciliation Once you start down that road where do you stop.surrey_commuter said:
Then if you don't like the word "all" what would you replave it with to exclude some arbitrary decision making about who it should not apply to?rjsterry said:
I think most people can read the word 'all' in a non-literal, absolutist sense.surrey_commuter said:
That is because I am discussing it with Rick.rjsterry said:
Bad German? Are we doing goodies and baddies now? I'm unclear what issue you think has to be got around.surrey_commuter said:
Why won’t you answer my genuine question?rick_chasey said:
Not really. It’s school, not uni.surrey_commuter said:
why not leave it at remembering the British dead from all wars?rick_chasey said:
It's more you're sending all the kids to go out and do some "remembering", make wreathes, stand by whatever.surrey_commuter said:
I think that we need a whole new thread on whether schools should teach facts or bend the truth so nobody gets offended.rick_chasey said:
Is an easier sell if your school class is very cosmopolitansurrey_commuter said:
Early signs of wokeism, each country has it's own and ours are those from UK and Commonwealth who died in service.rick_chasey said:
We were told in school it was everyone who died in all wars.... over and over and over.surrey_commuter said:
I feel that neither of you appreciate that the purpose of Armistice/Remembrance/Veterans Day is to honour/remember those servicemen/women who gave their lives for their country in a war.pangolin said:
Bizarre isn't it.rick_chasey said:OK.
Who knew an anti-war much on Armistice Day would be so badly received.
That better?
Can you really not see why many people would be upset and angry about any chance that another organisation would use it to promote their own cause?
I suspect this is a generational change in understanding.
Would be more than a little weird to throw it so wide that it included Hitler and his murdering cronies
Imagine the madness of ending up teaching kids that we fought a war against a political ideology rather than a country.
And you get some old duffer in who is talking about "us" all the time, when, certainly in my class, we had Poles, Bengalis, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Romanians etc.
What ya gonna do, incite some migrant beef?
If you lived in USA what would you do on July 4th to make it more inclusive?
Though I am intrigued at how inclusive you got with German war dead. Was their an attempt made to differentiate between good and bad Germans?
All wars are bad mmmkay etc
Teachers have more pressing needs than the ins and outs of an increasingly irrelevant collective memory event.
How did they get around the “bad German” issue when commemorating all war dead?
I am questioning how you get round the massive Hitler shaped elephant in the room if you commemorate all those who died in WW2
If we can cope with adapting Armistice Day to encompass WW2, the Falklands and other modern conflicts, I think we can cope with other deviations from the earliest commemorations.
"Innocent victims of all wars" sounds good but would exclude professional soldiers.
Are we going to include Rommel but exclude Guy Gibson?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition1 -
From my understanding, which admittedly is limited, when Remembrance Day started, shortly after WW1, "reconciliation" wasn't really on the menu. The post-war legal framework was a compromise between the US, UK and French leaders at the time, with the former wanting reconciliation and rebuilding, whilst the latter wanted Germany rendered utterly incapable of invading France again. The UK wanted a reasonably strong Germany as a bulwark against communism but also had to accede to public pressure to "make Germany pay".rjsterry said:
It's rather against the spirit of reconciliation...surrey_commuter said:
Then if you don't like the word "all" what would you replave it with to exclude some arbitrary decision making about who it should not apply to?rjsterry said:
I think most people can read the word 'all' in a non-literal, absolutist sense.surrey_commuter said:
That is because I am discussing it with Rick.rjsterry said:
Bad German? Are we doing goodies and baddies now? I'm unclear what issue you think has to be got around.surrey_commuter said:
Why won’t you answer my genuine question?rick_chasey said:
Not really. It’s school, not uni.surrey_commuter said:
why not leave it at remembering the British dead from all wars?rick_chasey said:
It's more you're sending all the kids to go out and do some "remembering", make wreathes, stand by whatever.surrey_commuter said:
I think that we need a whole new thread on whether schools should teach facts or bend the truth so nobody gets offended.rick_chasey said:
Is an easier sell if your school class is very cosmopolitansurrey_commuter said:
Early signs of wokeism, each country has it's own and ours are those from UK and Commonwealth who died in service.rick_chasey said:
We were told in school it was everyone who died in all wars.... over and over and over.surrey_commuter said:
I feel that neither of you appreciate that the purpose of Armistice/Remembrance/Veterans Day is to honour/remember those servicemen/women who gave their lives for their country in a war.pangolin said:
Bizarre isn't it.rick_chasey said:OK.
Who knew an anti-war much on Armistice Day would be so badly received.
That better?
Can you really not see why many people would be upset and angry about any chance that another organisation would use it to promote their own cause?
I suspect this is a generational change in understanding.
Would be more than a little weird to throw it so wide that it included Hitler and his murdering cronies
Imagine the madness of ending up teaching kids that we fought a war against a political ideology rather than a country.
And you get some old duffer in who is talking about "us" all the time, when, certainly in my class, we had Poles, Bengalis, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Romanians etc.
What ya gonna do, incite some migrant beef?
If you lived in USA what would you do on July 4th to make it more inclusive?
Though I am intrigued at how inclusive you got with German war dead. Was their an attempt made to differentiate between good and bad Germans?
All wars are bad mmmkay etc
Teachers have more pressing needs than the ins and outs of an increasingly irrelevant collective memory event.
How did they get around the “bad German” issue when commemorating all war dead?
I am questioning how you get round the massive Hitler shaped elephant in the room if you commemorate all those who died in WW2
If we can cope with adapting Armistice Day to encompass WW2, the Falklands and other modern conflicts, I think we can cope with other deviations from the earliest commemorations.
"Innocent victims of all wars" sounds good but would exclude professional soldiers.
Are we going to include Rommel but exclude Guy Gibson?
Lord only knows what the French would have imposed if given a free run, as the compromise still involved Germany accepting full responsibility for the war, yielding territory, giving up control of key coal fields for 15 years and paying nearly £300b (in today's value) in reparations.
Maybe the correct approach to adopt is whilst there are veterans of WW2 still alive, Remembrance Day is kept true to its original purpose - remembering British and Commonwealth soldiers who died in the WWs, with an unspoken sub-clause that anyone here who doesn't like that can **** off somewhere else they find more tolerable in their views re remembering wars.
Then once there are no longer any WW2 veterans with us, there could be a sensible national debate (ha!) as to what the Day is now best in remembrance of, if it's even relevant any more. Maybe an annual "Thank God we live in liberal western Europe Day" would be best!
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The reality of rememberence is that it's constantly changing.
To bring it back to the well loved generational categorization, when us millennials were at school we had grandparents who either served or were evacuated from cities during WW2. So there was a personal connection to the "proper wars". At school the narrative was very much, war is bad, but justifiable at times.
Increasingly, that generation has passed away and rememberence has less of a personal connection, but there is now almost an over the top aspect to it, with displays that rival Christmas decorations. I find that bizarre, and the opposite of the quiet reflection.0 -
"Then once there are no longer any WW2 veterans with us"
To have been in WWII active service, individuals would have been born in 1927 or earlier. So 96yo and counting. I'd suggest not too many now still with us, inc Captain Tom et al.
Unlike the palooka I heard spouting and flagshaggingwaving in a market town centre a few years back, claiming to have been on the D-Day beaches. Aye pal, so have I.
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The French really were pretty miffed about the whole thing. They had a lot more deaths than us the impact of which was amplified by unfavourable demographics. When you take protected industries into account the losses in some communities must have been staggering. And that is without considering the ones who came back broken.wallace_and_gromit said:
From my understanding, which admittedly is limited, when Remembrance Day started, shortly after WW1, "reconciliation" wasn't really on the menu. The post-war legal framework was a compromise between the US, UK and French leaders at the time, with the former wanting reconciliation and rebuilding, whilst the latter wanted Germany rendered utterly incapable of invading France again. The UK wanted a reasonably strong Germany as a bulwark against communism but also had to accede to public pressure to "make Germany pay".rjsterry said:
It's rather against the spirit of reconciliation...surrey_commuter said:
Then if you don't like the word "all" what would you replave it with to exclude some arbitrary decision making about who it should not apply to?rjsterry said:
I think most people can read the word 'all' in a non-literal, absolutist sense.surrey_commuter said:
That is because I am discussing it with Rick.rjsterry said:
Bad German? Are we doing goodies and baddies now? I'm unclear what issue you think has to be got around.surrey_commuter said:
Why won’t you answer my genuine question?rick_chasey said:
Not really. It’s school, not uni.surrey_commuter said:
why not leave it at remembering the British dead from all wars?rick_chasey said:
It's more you're sending all the kids to go out and do some "remembering", make wreathes, stand by whatever.surrey_commuter said:
I think that we need a whole new thread on whether schools should teach facts or bend the truth so nobody gets offended.rick_chasey said:
Is an easier sell if your school class is very cosmopolitansurrey_commuter said:
Early signs of wokeism, each country has it's own and ours are those from UK and Commonwealth who died in service.rick_chasey said:
We were told in school it was everyone who died in all wars.... over and over and over.surrey_commuter said:
I feel that neither of you appreciate that the purpose of Armistice/Remembrance/Veterans Day is to honour/remember those servicemen/women who gave their lives for their country in a war.pangolin said:
Bizarre isn't it.rick_chasey said:OK.
Who knew an anti-war much on Armistice Day would be so badly received.
That better?
Can you really not see why many people would be upset and angry about any chance that another organisation would use it to promote their own cause?
I suspect this is a generational change in understanding.
Would be more than a little weird to throw it so wide that it included Hitler and his murdering cronies
Imagine the madness of ending up teaching kids that we fought a war against a political ideology rather than a country.
And you get some old duffer in who is talking about "us" all the time, when, certainly in my class, we had Poles, Bengalis, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Romanians etc.
What ya gonna do, incite some migrant beef?
If you lived in USA what would you do on July 4th to make it more inclusive?
Though I am intrigued at how inclusive you got with German war dead. Was their an attempt made to differentiate between good and bad Germans?
All wars are bad mmmkay etc
Teachers have more pressing needs than the ins and outs of an increasingly irrelevant collective memory event.
How did they get around the “bad German” issue when commemorating all war dead?
I am questioning how you get round the massive Hitler shaped elephant in the room if you commemorate all those who died in WW2
If we can cope with adapting Armistice Day to encompass WW2, the Falklands and other modern conflicts, I think we can cope with other deviations from the earliest commemorations.
"Innocent victims of all wars" sounds good but would exclude professional soldiers.
Are we going to include Rommel but exclude Guy Gibson?
Lord only knows what the French would have imposed if given a free run, as the compromise still involved Germany accepting full responsibility for the war, yielding territory, giving up control of key coal fields for 15 years and paying nearly £300b (in today's value) in reparations.
Maybe the correct approach to adopt is whilst there are veterans of WW2 still alive, Remembrance Day is kept true to its original purpose - remembering British and Commonwealth soldiers who died in the WWs, with an unspoken sub-clause that anyone here who doesn't like that can **** off somewhere else they find more tolerable in their views re remembering wars.
Then once there are no longer any WW2 veterans with us, there could be a sensible national debate (ha!) as to what the Day is now best in remembrance of, if it's even relevant any more. Maybe an annual "Thank God we live in liberal western Europe Day" would be best!0 -
The Serbians had it the worst in terms of deaths per capita from what I have read. Not that it is a competition.surrey_commuter said:
The French really were pretty miffed about the whole thing. They had a lot more deaths than us the impact of which was amplified by unfavourable demographics. When you take protected industries into account the losses in some communities must have been staggering. And that is without considering the ones who came back broken.wallace_and_gromit said:
From my understanding, which admittedly is limited, when Remembrance Day started, shortly after WW1, "reconciliation" wasn't really on the menu. The post-war legal framework was a compromise between the US, UK and French leaders at the time, with the former wanting reconciliation and rebuilding, whilst the latter wanted Germany rendered utterly incapable of invading France again. The UK wanted a reasonably strong Germany as a bulwark against communism but also had to accede to public pressure to "make Germany pay".rjsterry said:
It's rather against the spirit of reconciliation...surrey_commuter said:
Then if you don't like the word "all" what would you replave it with to exclude some arbitrary decision making about who it should not apply to?rjsterry said:
I think most people can read the word 'all' in a non-literal, absolutist sense.surrey_commuter said:
That is because I am discussing it with Rick.rjsterry said:
Bad German? Are we doing goodies and baddies now? I'm unclear what issue you think has to be got around.surrey_commuter said:
Why won’t you answer my genuine question?rick_chasey said:
Not really. It’s school, not uni.surrey_commuter said:
why not leave it at remembering the British dead from all wars?rick_chasey said:
It's more you're sending all the kids to go out and do some "remembering", make wreathes, stand by whatever.surrey_commuter said:
I think that we need a whole new thread on whether schools should teach facts or bend the truth so nobody gets offended.rick_chasey said:
Is an easier sell if your school class is very cosmopolitansurrey_commuter said:
Early signs of wokeism, each country has it's own and ours are those from UK and Commonwealth who died in service.rick_chasey said:
We were told in school it was everyone who died in all wars.... over and over and over.surrey_commuter said:
I feel that neither of you appreciate that the purpose of Armistice/Remembrance/Veterans Day is to honour/remember those servicemen/women who gave their lives for their country in a war.pangolin said:
Bizarre isn't it.rick_chasey said:OK.
Who knew an anti-war much on Armistice Day would be so badly received.
That better?
Can you really not see why many people would be upset and angry about any chance that another organisation would use it to promote their own cause?
I suspect this is a generational change in understanding.
Would be more than a little weird to throw it so wide that it included Hitler and his murdering cronies
Imagine the madness of ending up teaching kids that we fought a war against a political ideology rather than a country.
And you get some old duffer in who is talking about "us" all the time, when, certainly in my class, we had Poles, Bengalis, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Romanians etc.
What ya gonna do, incite some migrant beef?
If you lived in USA what would you do on July 4th to make it more inclusive?
Though I am intrigued at how inclusive you got with German war dead. Was their an attempt made to differentiate between good and bad Germans?
All wars are bad mmmkay etc
Teachers have more pressing needs than the ins and outs of an increasingly irrelevant collective memory event.
How did they get around the “bad German” issue when commemorating all war dead?
I am questioning how you get round the massive Hitler shaped elephant in the room if you commemorate all those who died in WW2
If we can cope with adapting Armistice Day to encompass WW2, the Falklands and other modern conflicts, I think we can cope with other deviations from the earliest commemorations.
"Innocent victims of all wars" sounds good but would exclude professional soldiers.
Are we going to include Rommel but exclude Guy Gibson?
Lord only knows what the French would have imposed if given a free run, as the compromise still involved Germany accepting full responsibility for the war, yielding territory, giving up control of key coal fields for 15 years and paying nearly £300b (in today's value) in reparations.
Maybe the correct approach to adopt is whilst there are veterans of WW2 still alive, Remembrance Day is kept true to its original purpose - remembering British and Commonwealth soldiers who died in the WWs, with an unspoken sub-clause that anyone here who doesn't like that can **** off somewhere else they find more tolerable in their views re remembering wars.
Then once there are no longer any WW2 veterans with us, there could be a sensible national debate (ha!) as to what the Day is now best in remembrance of, if it's even relevant any more. Maybe an annual "Thank God we live in liberal western Europe Day" would be best!1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
surrey_commuter said:
The French really were pretty miffed about the whole thing. They had a lot more deaths than us the impact of which was amplified by unfavourable demographics. When you take protected industries into account the losses in some communities must have been staggering. And that is without considering the ones who came back broken.wallace_and_gromit said:
From my understanding, which admittedly is limited, when Remembrance Day started, shortly after WW1, "reconciliation" wasn't really on the menu. The post-war legal framework was a compromise between the US, UK and French leaders at the time, with the former wanting reconciliation and rebuilding, whilst the latter wanted Germany rendered utterly incapable of invading France again. The UK wanted a reasonably strong Germany as a bulwark against communism but also had to accede to public pressure to "make Germany pay".rjsterry said:
It's rather against the spirit of reconciliation...surrey_commuter said:
Then if you don't like the word "all" what would you replave it with to exclude some arbitrary decision making about who it should not apply to?rjsterry said:
I think most people can read the word 'all' in a non-literal, absolutist sense.surrey_commuter said:
That is because I am discussing it with Rick.rjsterry said:
Bad German? Are we doing goodies and baddies now? I'm unclear what issue you think has to be got around.surrey_commuter said:
Why won’t you answer my genuine question?rick_chasey said:
Not really. It’s school, not uni.surrey_commuter said:
why not leave it at remembering the British dead from all wars?rick_chasey said:
It's more you're sending all the kids to go out and do some "remembering", make wreathes, stand by whatever.surrey_commuter said:
I think that we need a whole new thread on whether schools should teach facts or bend the truth so nobody gets offended.rick_chasey said:
Is an easier sell if your school class is very cosmopolitansurrey_commuter said:
Early signs of wokeism, each country has it's own and ours are those from UK and Commonwealth who died in service.rick_chasey said:
We were told in school it was everyone who died in all wars.... over and over and over.surrey_commuter said:
I feel that neither of you appreciate that the purpose of Armistice/Remembrance/Veterans Day is to honour/remember those servicemen/women who gave their lives for their country in a war.pangolin said:
Bizarre isn't it.rick_chasey said:OK.
Who knew an anti-war much on Armistice Day would be so badly received.
That better?
Can you really not see why many people would be upset and angry about any chance that another organisation would use it to promote their own cause?
I suspect this is a generational change in understanding.
Would be more than a little weird to throw it so wide that it included Hitler and his murdering cronies
Imagine the madness of ending up teaching kids that we fought a war against a political ideology rather than a country.
And you get some old duffer in who is talking about "us" all the time, when, certainly in my class, we had Poles, Bengalis, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Romanians etc.
What ya gonna do, incite some migrant beef?
If you lived in USA what would you do on July 4th to make it more inclusive?
Though I am intrigued at how inclusive you got with German war dead. Was their an attempt made to differentiate between good and bad Germans?
All wars are bad mmmkay etc
Teachers have more pressing needs than the ins and outs of an increasingly irrelevant collective memory event.
How did they get around the “bad German” issue when commemorating all war dead?
I am questioning how you get round the massive Hitler shaped elephant in the room if you commemorate all those who died in WW2
If we can cope with adapting Armistice Day to encompass WW2, the Falklands and other modern conflicts, I think we can cope with other deviations from the earliest commemorations.
"Innocent victims of all wars" sounds good but would exclude professional soldiers.
Are we going to include Rommel but exclude Guy Gibson?
Lord only knows what the French would have imposed if given a free run, as the compromise still involved Germany accepting full responsibility for the war, yielding territory, giving up control of key coal fields for 15 years and paying nearly £300b (in today's value) in reparations.
Maybe the correct approach to adopt is whilst there are veterans of WW2 still alive, Remembrance Day is kept true to its original purpose - remembering British and Commonwealth soldiers who died in the WWs, with an unspoken sub-clause that anyone here who doesn't like that can **** off somewhere else they find more tolerable in their views re remembering wars.
Then once there are no longer any WW2 veterans with us, there could be a sensible national debate (ha!) as to what the Day is now best in remembrance of, if it's even relevant any more. Maybe an annual "Thank God we live in liberal western Europe Day" would be best!
I find the contrast between the French WW1 war memorials and the WW2 ones interesting - the WW1 ones are grand and very much 'for the glory of France', but the WW2 ones are decidedly more sombre. It also brings it home when you see WW2 memorials for locals taken to concentration camps such as Buchenwald. Definitely no glorification in those. The other place there is always a sombre ceremony is at Vassieux on 21 July on the anniversary of the Nazis' slaughter of pretty much the entire village in retribution for harbouring the Maquis: the nécropole is one of the most harrowing places to wander amongst the graves of all ages., with 90 year-old women buried next to infants. It's still very much in the locals' consciousness.
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Worth remembering, pun intended, that collective memory is really a mirror into the contemporary discourse, rather than anything to do with the past.
After all, literally no one actually remembers WW1 anymore0 -
Maybe you don’t but I remember my grandad who served despite suffering from Epilepsy and there will be plenty of people who still are in the position that they knew a relative who served. But then again Rick you continue to twist everything to suit your agenda.rick_chasey said:Worth remembering, pun intended, that collective memory is really a mirror into the contemporary discourse, rather than anything to do with the past.
After all, literally no one actually remembers WW1 anymore0 -
rick_chasey said:
Worth remembering, pun intended, that collective memory is really a mirror into the contemporary discourse, rather than anything to do with the past.
After all, literally no one actually remembers WW1 anymore
I don't think it's an either/or. Of course it can be a way of re-evaluating the present, but I think there's value in just hanging onto history the best we can through the threads of family and social memory, whether or not it has any reflection on the present. Re WW2, there have been many projects over the past few years to record first-hand testimony from the generation that experienced it in one way or another, and surely that's aworthwhile end in itself, whether or not people now (or later) use it to reflect on current times. So I'd say that's 'something to do with the past'.... valuing it, for a start.0 -
Tbf remembering a relative who served is not remembering the warwebboo said:
Maybe you don’t but I remember my grandad who served despite suffering from Epilepsy and there will be plenty of people who still are in the position that they knew a relative who served. But then again Rick you continue to twist everything to suit your agenda.rick_chasey said:Worth remembering, pun intended, that collective memory is really a mirror into the contemporary discourse, rather than anything to do with the past.
After all, literally no one actually remembers WW1 anymore- Genesis Croix de Fer
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“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
So not the war but the consequences and the effect on people who went and the effect of those who never returned.pangolin said:
Tbf remembering a relative who served is not remembering the warwebboo said:
Maybe you don’t but I remember my grandad who served despite suffering from Epilepsy and there will be plenty of people who still are in the position that they knew a relative who served. But then again Rick you continue to twist everything to suit your agenda.rick_chasey said:Worth remembering, pun intended, that collective memory is really a mirror into the contemporary discourse, rather than anything to do with the past.
After all, literally no one actually remembers WW1 anymore0 -
I think he just meant no-one remembers it first hand.webboo said:
Maybe you don’t but I remember my grandad who served despite suffering from Epilepsy and there will be plenty of people who still are in the position that they knew a relative who served. But then again Rick you continue to twist everything to suit your agenda.rick_chasey said:Worth remembering, pun intended, that collective memory is really a mirror into the contemporary discourse, rather than anything to do with the past.
After all, literally no one actually remembers WW1 anymore1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
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Saw that. Absolute madness.carbonclem said:1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
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It’s *almost like* the past has shaped the world we live in today.rjsterry said:
I think he just meant no-one remembers it first hand.webboo said:
Maybe you don’t but I remember my grandad who served despite suffering from Epilepsy and there will be plenty of people who still are in the position that they knew a relative who served. But then again Rick you continue to twist everything to suit your agenda.rick_chasey said:Worth remembering, pun intended, that collective memory is really a mirror into the contemporary discourse, rather than anything to do with the past.
After all, literally no one actually remembers WW1 anymore
But society chooses to selectively remember only certain bits and even fewer are ritualised.
The choice of what is remembered, why and how is much is revealing.
Does anyone here even have first hand memory of WW2, let alone WW1?
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