LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!
Comments
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I guess what SC would have wanted is dividing the class up into axis and allies according to their nationality and declare that your collective grandparents killed their collective grandparents and visa versa but we’re only “remembering” the Brit dead, not the others.
Amirite?
It’s fine to do, but it is now a long time ago and eventually the world and British society will be so different it’s irrelevant.0 -
There's nothing like strong leadership in turbulent times. And this is nothing like strong leadership in turbulent times. Struth, has he no idea how pathetic he's looking? By dithering, not only is he letting the poison hang around so everyone notices, he's also condemning himself. To think we've probably still got a year of this terminal omnishambles...
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Pretty sure most of the above were involved in one of the world wars, the Poles and Bengalis fighting alongside Britain. The Bengalis were British subjects at the time. Think SC is being needlessly pedantic. No Remembrance service I've ever been to has taken a nationalist or exclusive approach.rick_chasey said:
It's more you're sending all the kids to go out and do some "remembering", make wreathes, stand by whatever.surrey_commuter said:
I think that we need a whole new thread on whether schools should teach facts or bend the truth so nobody gets offended.rick_chasey said:
Is an easier sell if your school class is very cosmopolitansurrey_commuter said:
Early signs of wokeism, each country has it's own and ours are those from UK and Commonwealth who died in service.rick_chasey said:
We were told in school it was everyone who died in all wars.... over and over and over.surrey_commuter said:
I feel that neither of you appreciate that the purpose of Armistice/Remembrance/Veterans Day is to honour/remember those servicemen/women who gave their lives for their country in a war.pangolin said:
Bizarre isn't it.rick_chasey said:OK.
Who knew an anti-war much on Armistice Day would be so badly received.
That better?
Can you really not see why many people would be upset and angry about any chance that another organisation would use it to promote their own cause?
I suspect this is a generational change in understanding.
Would be more than a little weird to throw it so wide that it included Hitler and his murdering cronies
Imagine the madness of ending up teaching kids that we fought a war against a political ideology rather than a country.
And you get some old duffer in who is talking about "us" all the time, when, certainly in my class, we had Poles, Bengalis, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Romanians etc.
What ya gonna do, incite some migrant beef?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition1 -
I am familiar with the make up of the axis and allies and their colonial manpower draws, funnily enough.0
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What RC would have wanted is to recreate the death camps, allocating different roles to class members.rick_chasey said:I guess what SC would have wanted is dividing the class up into axis and allies according to their nationality and declare that your collective grandparents killed their collective grandparents and visa versa but we’re only “remembering” the Brit dead, not the others.
Amirite?
It’s fine to do, but it is now a long time ago and eventually the world and British society will be so different it’s irrelevant.
Weird when people project sh1t on to you isn’t it0 -
Why won’t you answer my genuine question?rick_chasey said:
Not really. It’s school, not uni.surrey_commuter said:
why not leave it at remembering the British dead from all wars?rick_chasey said:
It's more you're sending all the kids to go out and do some "remembering", make wreathes, stand by whatever.surrey_commuter said:
I think that we need a whole new thread on whether schools should teach facts or bend the truth so nobody gets offended.rick_chasey said:
Is an easier sell if your school class is very cosmopolitansurrey_commuter said:
Early signs of wokeism, each country has it's own and ours are those from UK and Commonwealth who died in service.rick_chasey said:
We were told in school it was everyone who died in all wars.... over and over and over.surrey_commuter said:
I feel that neither of you appreciate that the purpose of Armistice/Remembrance/Veterans Day is to honour/remember those servicemen/women who gave their lives for their country in a war.pangolin said:
Bizarre isn't it.rick_chasey said:OK.
Who knew an anti-war much on Armistice Day would be so badly received.
That better?
Can you really not see why many people would be upset and angry about any chance that another organisation would use it to promote their own cause?
I suspect this is a generational change in understanding.
Would be more than a little weird to throw it so wide that it included Hitler and his murdering cronies
Imagine the madness of ending up teaching kids that we fought a war against a political ideology rather than a country.
And you get some old duffer in who is talking about "us" all the time, when, certainly in my class, we had Poles, Bengalis, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Romanians etc.
What ya gonna do, incite some migrant beef?
If you lived in USA what would you do on July 4th to make it more inclusive?
Though I am intrigued at how inclusive you got with German war dead. Was their an attempt made to differentiate between good and bad Germans?
All wars are bad mmmkay etc
Teachers have more pressing needs than the ins and outs of an increasingly irrelevant collective memory event.
How did they get around the “bad German” issue when commemorating all war dead?0 -
Bad German? Are we doing goodies and baddies now? I'm unclear what issue you think has to be got around.surrey_commuter said:
Why won’t you answer my genuine question?rick_chasey said:
Not really. It’s school, not uni.surrey_commuter said:
why not leave it at remembering the British dead from all wars?rick_chasey said:
It's more you're sending all the kids to go out and do some "remembering", make wreathes, stand by whatever.surrey_commuter said:
I think that we need a whole new thread on whether schools should teach facts or bend the truth so nobody gets offended.rick_chasey said:
Is an easier sell if your school class is very cosmopolitansurrey_commuter said:
Early signs of wokeism, each country has it's own and ours are those from UK and Commonwealth who died in service.rick_chasey said:
We were told in school it was everyone who died in all wars.... over and over and over.surrey_commuter said:
I feel that neither of you appreciate that the purpose of Armistice/Remembrance/Veterans Day is to honour/remember those servicemen/women who gave their lives for their country in a war.pangolin said:
Bizarre isn't it.rick_chasey said:OK.
Who knew an anti-war much on Armistice Day would be so badly received.
That better?
Can you really not see why many people would be upset and angry about any chance that another organisation would use it to promote their own cause?
I suspect this is a generational change in understanding.
Would be more than a little weird to throw it so wide that it included Hitler and his murdering cronies
Imagine the madness of ending up teaching kids that we fought a war against a political ideology rather than a country.
And you get some old duffer in who is talking about "us" all the time, when, certainly in my class, we had Poles, Bengalis, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Romanians etc.
What ya gonna do, incite some migrant beef?
If you lived in USA what would you do on July 4th to make it more inclusive?
Though I am intrigued at how inclusive you got with German war dead. Was their an attempt made to differentiate between good and bad Germans?
All wars are bad mmmkay etc
Teachers have more pressing needs than the ins and outs of an increasingly irrelevant collective memory event.
How did they get around the “bad German” issue when commemorating all war dead?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Funny how a momentary worry about antisemitism has gone straight out of the window as soon as an inanimate lump of stone on Whitehall is possibly at risk of someone saying something inappropriate nearby.skyblueamateur said:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12729525/Protect-Poppy-sellers-Calls-rally-round-Britains-army-volunteers-terrified-raise-cash-nations-war-heroes-forced-leave-rail-stations-targeted-shops-amid-tensions-pro-Palestine-protesters.html
I mean what even the censored is this? It’s just utter nonsense.
I respect what the poppy symbolises but it has definitely become politicised over the last 5 years and find it a joke people in the public limelight are lambasted by the right wing media and it’s supporters for having the temerity to not wear a poppy.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Oh relax, it was tongue in cheek. Obviously you wouldn't want that, I thought it was obvious.surrey_commuter said:
What RC would have wanted is to recreate the death camps, allocating different roles to class members.rick_chasey said:I guess what SC would have wanted is dividing the class up into axis and allies according to their nationality and declare that your collective grandparents killed their collective grandparents and visa versa but we’re only “remembering” the Brit dead, not the others.
Amirite?
It’s fine to do, but it is now a long time ago and eventually the world and British society will be so different it’s irrelevant.
Weird when people project censored on to you isn’t it
Teachers just want to get through something that isn't tested on with as little fuss as possible, right? Easiest way to get the kids to do what they want.
I got told to be quiet when I said my mother says it's only for Brits, because, obviously, that's a pain in the arse for them,0 -
I don't get this poppy waving.
Me, ok here's a quick summary. Donate via charity DD to the Erskine veterans' hospital; visited the grave on the Somme of an ancestor, plus the nearby Thiepval monument for the name of another whose remains were not identified; been at the Last Post at Menen Gate several times; been in Tyne Cot; been in WWI cemeteries multiple inc for the 'other side'; been on Normandy beaches... and more...
But no way will I wear a poppy in these culture-war times.
Right, bring it on. If you think you're hard enough 😉0 -
It isn't 'only for Brits'.rick_chasey said:
Oh relax, it was tongue in cheek. Obviously you wouldn't want that, I thought it was obvious.surrey_commuter said:
What RC would have wanted is to recreate the death camps, allocating different roles to class members.rick_chasey said:I guess what SC would have wanted is dividing the class up into axis and allies according to their nationality and declare that your collective grandparents killed their collective grandparents and visa versa but we’re only “remembering” the Brit dead, not the others.
Amirite?
It’s fine to do, but it is now a long time ago and eventually the world and British society will be so different it’s irrelevant.
Weird when people project censored on to you isn’t it
Teachers just want to get through something that isn't tested on with as little fuss as possible, right? Easiest way to get the kids to do what they want.
I got told to be quiet when I said my mother says it's only for Brits, because, obviously, that's a pain in the censored for them,Observed by: Belgium, France, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria and many other countries
Obviously ceremonies in Britain are going to focus on British combatants.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Mmmm money's for the British legion isn't it?rjsterry said:
It isn't 'only for Brits'.rick_chasey said:
Oh relax, it was tongue in cheek. Obviously you wouldn't want that, I thought it was obvious.surrey_commuter said:
What RC would have wanted is to recreate the death camps, allocating different roles to class members.rick_chasey said:I guess what SC would have wanted is dividing the class up into axis and allies according to their nationality and declare that your collective grandparents killed their collective grandparents and visa versa but we’re only “remembering” the Brit dead, not the others.
Amirite?
It’s fine to do, but it is now a long time ago and eventually the world and British society will be so different it’s irrelevant.
Weird when people project censored on to you isn’t it
Teachers just want to get through something that isn't tested on with as little fuss as possible, right? Easiest way to get the kids to do what they want.
I got told to be quiet when I said my mother says it's only for Brits, because, obviously, that's a pain in the censored for them,0 -
Donations to the RBL do indeed go to British veterans. The RBL doesn't have exclusive rights to Armistice Day events although they obviously are heavily involved in many in this country. The event at the Cenotaph is organised by the Western Front Association for example. The RBL has obviously been extraordinarily successful with their branding for want of a better word.rick_chasey said:
Mmmm money's for the British legion isn't it?rjsterry said:
It isn't 'only for Brits'.rick_chasey said:
Oh relax, it was tongue in cheek. Obviously you wouldn't want that, I thought it was obvious.surrey_commuter said:
What RC would have wanted is to recreate the death camps, allocating different roles to class members.rick_chasey said:I guess what SC would have wanted is dividing the class up into axis and allies according to their nationality and declare that your collective grandparents killed their collective grandparents and visa versa but we’re only “remembering” the Brit dead, not the others.
Amirite?
It’s fine to do, but it is now a long time ago and eventually the world and British society will be so different it’s irrelevant.
Weird when people project censored on to you isn’t it
Teachers just want to get through something that isn't tested on with as little fuss as possible, right? Easiest way to get the kids to do what they want.
I got told to be quiet when I said my mother says it's only for Brits, because, obviously, that's a pain in the censored for them,1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I will. Cos I want to, and nobody is going to tell me any different.orraloon said:
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But no way will I wear a poppy in these culture-war times.
Right, bring it on. If you think you're hard enough 😉The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
Not comfortable reading for Telegraph subscribers...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/09/are-we-witnessing-break-up-of-conservative-party/All this is against a backdrop of Tory misery, with ministers resigned to electoral defeat and thinking of the leadership battle that comes afterwards. The topic of conversation, now, is not whether they will lose but how much by. Whether a crash-landing is possible, saving perhaps 250 of the 350 MPs, or whether they will end up with a rump of 130 destined to head off to the lunatic fringes. “At this rate,” one party pessimist tells me, “the next Tory King’s Speech will be given by a different king”.
The October 7 atrocities were intended to polarise debate and end the Arab-Israeli rapprochement. But they have polarised opinion here, too, with Labour MPs rebelling and one resigning from Keir Starmer’s frontbench in protest at his refusal to call for a ceasefire. There’s talk of independent pro-Palestine candidates running against Labour MPs. But several Tories think all this is good for Starmer. That every nutty Labour councillor that resigns in protest makes him look more dependable and ready for office, while Conservatives feud.
Sunak’s would-be successors are already taking soundings, having lunch meetings to set out their stalls. Each of them has the same message: that the choice is not between victory and defeat, but defeat and annihilation. But what’s the alternative? The mayhem of recent years means no Conservatives can play the competence card. Nor the low-tax card.
There’s an argument to be made on values and identity politics, but not much interest in doing so. Some feel their party is a corpse without a cause, so start articulating their own ideas, with or without permission. Expect more of this in coming months.
Sunak is more ahimsa than assassin and his response to Braverman has been strategic forgiveness, saying she still has his “full confidence”. He can’t afford rupture because he knows how it would spiral. But if he won’t retaliate, her enemies (who regard her as an ineffective blowhard) may well do so. Some are threatening to speak out unless she has been sacked by the weekend. Whips calling around MPs to see if anyone else is likely to detonate have been told that Braverman has many fervent supporters who will not tolerate her dismissal.
All told, it’s becoming very easy to see what a proper Tory crack-up will look like. And harder to be sure that it hasn’t started already.0 -
Leftiebollox. 😉The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
orraloon said:
I don't get this poppy waving.
Me, ok here's a quick summary. Donate via charity DD to the Erskine veterans' hospital; visited the grave on the Somme of an ancestor, plus the nearby Thiepval monument for the name of another whose remains were not identified; been at the Last Post at Menen Gate several times; been in Tyne Cot; been in WWI cemeteries multiple inc for the 'other side'; been on Normandy beaches... and more...
But no way will I wear a poppy in these culture-war times.
Right, bring it on. If you think you're hard enough 😉
How about this?0 -
I come from a long line of cowards but other than that (and Erskine) you have described myselforraloon said:I don't get this poppy waving.
Me, ok here's a quick summary. Donate via charity DD to the Erskine veterans' hospital; visited the grave on the Somme of an ancestor, plus the nearby Thiepval monument for the name of another whose remains were not identified; been at the Last Post at Menen Gate several times; been in Tyne Cot; been in WWI cemeteries multiple inc for the 'other side'; been on Normandy beaches... and more...
But no way will I wear a poppy in these culture-war times.
Right, bring it on. If you think you're hard enough 😉0 -
That is because I am discussing it with Rick.rjsterry said:
Bad German? Are we doing goodies and baddies now? I'm unclear what issue you think has to be got around.surrey_commuter said:
Why won’t you answer my genuine question?rick_chasey said:
Not really. It’s school, not uni.surrey_commuter said:
why not leave it at remembering the British dead from all wars?rick_chasey said:
It's more you're sending all the kids to go out and do some "remembering", make wreathes, stand by whatever.surrey_commuter said:
I think that we need a whole new thread on whether schools should teach facts or bend the truth so nobody gets offended.rick_chasey said:
Is an easier sell if your school class is very cosmopolitansurrey_commuter said:
Early signs of wokeism, each country has it's own and ours are those from UK and Commonwealth who died in service.rick_chasey said:
We were told in school it was everyone who died in all wars.... over and over and over.surrey_commuter said:
I feel that neither of you appreciate that the purpose of Armistice/Remembrance/Veterans Day is to honour/remember those servicemen/women who gave their lives for their country in a war.pangolin said:
Bizarre isn't it.rick_chasey said:OK.
Who knew an anti-war much on Armistice Day would be so badly received.
That better?
Can you really not see why many people would be upset and angry about any chance that another organisation would use it to promote their own cause?
I suspect this is a generational change in understanding.
Would be more than a little weird to throw it so wide that it included Hitler and his murdering cronies
Imagine the madness of ending up teaching kids that we fought a war against a political ideology rather than a country.
And you get some old duffer in who is talking about "us" all the time, when, certainly in my class, we had Poles, Bengalis, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Romanians etc.
What ya gonna do, incite some migrant beef?
If you lived in USA what would you do on July 4th to make it more inclusive?
Though I am intrigued at how inclusive you got with German war dead. Was their an attempt made to differentiate between good and bad Germans?
All wars are bad mmmkay etc
Teachers have more pressing needs than the ins and outs of an increasingly irrelevant collective memory event.
How did they get around the “bad German” issue when commemorating all war dead?
I am questioning how you get round the massive Hitler shaped elephant in the room if you commemorate all those who died in WW20 -
Remembrance Sunday is a national opportunity to remember the service and sacrifice of all those that have defended our freedoms and protected our way of life.https://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-involved/remembrance/about-remembrance#:~:text=Remembrance Sunday is a national,protected our way of life.0
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I am really struggling to see why this is contentious.
All over the country small groups of people will gather around a war memorial and pay their respects to those who never came back - they have not been forgotten.
If people don't like it then stay at home or go shopping.0 -
I think most people can read the word 'all' in a non-literal, absolutist sense.surrey_commuter said:
That is because I am discussing it with Rick.rjsterry said:
Bad German? Are we doing goodies and baddies now? I'm unclear what issue you think has to be got around.surrey_commuter said:
Why won’t you answer my genuine question?rick_chasey said:
Not really. It’s school, not uni.surrey_commuter said:
why not leave it at remembering the British dead from all wars?rick_chasey said:
It's more you're sending all the kids to go out and do some "remembering", make wreathes, stand by whatever.surrey_commuter said:
I think that we need a whole new thread on whether schools should teach facts or bend the truth so nobody gets offended.rick_chasey said:
Is an easier sell if your school class is very cosmopolitansurrey_commuter said:
Early signs of wokeism, each country has it's own and ours are those from UK and Commonwealth who died in service.rick_chasey said:
We were told in school it was everyone who died in all wars.... over and over and over.surrey_commuter said:
I feel that neither of you appreciate that the purpose of Armistice/Remembrance/Veterans Day is to honour/remember those servicemen/women who gave their lives for their country in a war.pangolin said:
Bizarre isn't it.rick_chasey said:OK.
Who knew an anti-war much on Armistice Day would be so badly received.
That better?
Can you really not see why many people would be upset and angry about any chance that another organisation would use it to promote their own cause?
I suspect this is a generational change in understanding.
Would be more than a little weird to throw it so wide that it included Hitler and his murdering cronies
Imagine the madness of ending up teaching kids that we fought a war against a political ideology rather than a country.
And you get some old duffer in who is talking about "us" all the time, when, certainly in my class, we had Poles, Bengalis, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Romanians etc.
What ya gonna do, incite some migrant beef?
If you lived in USA what would you do on July 4th to make it more inclusive?
Though I am intrigued at how inclusive you got with German war dead. Was their an attempt made to differentiate between good and bad Germans?
All wars are bad mmmkay etc
Teachers have more pressing needs than the ins and outs of an increasingly irrelevant collective memory event.
How did they get around the “bad German” issue when commemorating all war dead?
I am questioning how you get round the massive Hitler shaped elephant in the room if you commemorate all those who died in WW2
If we can cope with adapting Armistice Day to encompass WW2, the Falklands and other modern conflicts, I think we can cope with other deviations from the earliest commemorations.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I don’t think there is an issue outside of some who have a huge issue if people decide not to wear a poppy.surrey_commuter said:I am really struggling to see why this is contentious.
All over the country small groups of people will gather around a war memorial and pay their respects to those who never came back - they have not been forgotten.
If people don't like it then stay at home or go shopping.0 -
There are those who claim wearing a poppy glorifies war and don't hesitate to tell you.skyblueamateur said:
I don’t think there is an issue outside of some who have a huge issue if people decide not to wear a poppy.surrey_commuter said:I am really struggling to see why this is contentious.
All over the country small groups of people will gather around a war memorial and pay their respects to those who never came back - they have not been forgotten.
If people don't like it then stay at home or go shopping.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
That bit isn't contentious. It's the other arguments that different groups try to attach to that, that are contentious.surrey_commuter said:I am really struggling to see why this is contentious.
All over the country small groups of people will gather around a war memorial and pay their respects to those who never came back - they have not been forgotten.
If people don't like it then stay at home or go shopping.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
How are first world war conscientious objectors now considered?surrey_commuter said:
I come from a long line of cowards but other than that (and Erskine) you have described myselforraloon said:I don't get this poppy waving.
Me, ok here's a quick summary. Donate via charity DD to the Erskine veterans' hospital; visited the grave on the Somme of an ancestor, plus the nearby Thiepval monument for the name of another whose remains were not identified; been at the Last Post at Menen Gate several times; been in Tyne Cot; been in WWI cemeteries multiple inc for the 'other side'; been on Normandy beaches... and more...
But no way will I wear a poppy in these culture-war times.
Right, bring it on. If you think you're hard enough 😉0 -
There's some interesting points here about "The Germans" in the context of WW2. I'd like to think I'd have been a "Good German" in the circumstances, but the nature of the regime was that if you didn't throw your neighbours under the bus on the slightest suspicion then someone would likely throw you under it as a result of this. And when it comes down to it, the vast majority of people just do what they have to do to survive.
So I just give thanks (on a daily basis) that I live in a society where we can pretty much do and say what we like and not have to decide whether or not to "inform" on my neighbours.
I don't wear a poppy on practical grounds - they only really work on suits and formal jackets which I rarely wear these days - but I do make a donation to the poppy sellers. And I'll likely be out running with the dog during the official Remembrance events on Sunday morning.1 -
So, will she last the day? Sunak says he has confidence in her, usually means a sacking is imminent.
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I have no idea if that is even a rhetorical question and therefore I am not being rude when suggesting that if you are genuinely interested in the answer then Google will be your friendTheBigBean said:
How are first world war conscientious objectors now considered?surrey_commuter said:
I come from a long line of cowards but other than that (and Erskine) you have described myselforraloon said:I don't get this poppy waving.
Me, ok here's a quick summary. Donate via charity DD to the Erskine veterans' hospital; visited the grave on the Somme of an ancestor, plus the nearby Thiepval monument for the name of another whose remains were not identified; been at the Last Post at Menen Gate several times; been in Tyne Cot; been in WWI cemeteries multiple inc for the 'other side'; been on Normandy beaches... and more...
But no way will I wear a poppy in these culture-war times.
Right, bring it on. If you think you're hard enough 😉0
