TDF 2018, Stage 19: Lourdes > Laruns 27/07/2018 - 200,5 km *Spoilers*
Comments
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I concede that the circumstances are different although if a moped in Thailand is going slow enough to draft it is probably because its carrying more than just a single rider.Rick Chasey wrote:Aye.
So when Roglic is doing the superman tuck behind the moped is he doing that because he can still pedal?
Presumably not because there going faster then 50kph!
Superman tuck Roglic vs motobike with big cameraman on the back?
If you don’t think that’s a huge advtanage for Roglic you’re a lost cause.
I'm more interested in why Jumbo chose to have Gesink do his monster turn and TD chose to chase down Roglic on the climbs though. I think those decisions probably had a bigger impact on the result than Roglic's tow.0 -
Drafting television bikes has gone on for years and nothing has been done about it, although, in fairness, the riders did not used to complain about it as often or as vigorously. Maybe they didn’t really know in the past. Most people don’t know that a motorbike gives a significant tow even at 15 m distance. The likes of Lappartient at the UCI probably has no clue, so I wouldn’t hold my breath for change on this. Far sexier to go after imaginary motors.0
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Salsiccia1 wrote:dish_dash wrote:Look, I'd buy the criticism if Roglic had just sat in and not done any work all day until the end and was then towed to the line by a moto.
But he put in a bunch of punchy attacks. Led over the top. Held his lead the whole way down and pushed hard to the line. If he did get a tow off the front, nothing to stop Dumoulin or Froome just holding his wheel...
No-one's criticising Roglic, it's a damn good ride and good win, and he'd be mad not to take advantage. But if the moto is pulling Roglic away then that's affecting the time gaps, and might mean the difference between 2nd, 3rd or 4th in this instance. And that's not right.
Did you see Milan-Sanremo this year?
Yep. No issues with the MSR result this year. My man won 8)0 -
The thread suddenly went from 10 pages to 27, you had me worried!0
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Yep. But might they have been in an even better position if they'd left it to Sky to chase?Rick Chasey wrote:Lotto wanted to protect Roglic and have a go at the stage win?
We'll never know for sure but could this dream scenario have played out for the Dutch if they'd been prepared to lose a little to gain a lot?
Landa group is approaching a four minute lead. Sky start to worry, not too much but enough. They burn Kwia out bringing it back to 2 and a half minutes. They use Bernal at the bottom of the climb. He's still there, but not fresh, when Kruijswick goes. Kruisjwick is no threat so they let him have a small gap. Roglic attacks. Froome tries to mark him but doesn't have the legs. Dumoulin refuses to chase. Sky don't panic but Roglic joins Kruisjwick and they build a minute lead. Now it is getting a bit worrisome. Geraint is forced to chase and brings them to within 20 seconds. Now Tommy attacks...
No question a fantasy and maybe Sky are simply too strong but, when they had to make each crucial decision they settled for what they had rather than rolling the dice and hoping for the big prize. It has happened pretty much every year since I've been watching the Tour, so I'm no longer surprised but I still don't get the thinking.0 -
dish_dash wrote:Salsiccia1 wrote:dish_dash wrote:Look, I'd buy the criticism if Roglic had just sat in and not done any work all day until the end and was then towed to the line by a moto.
But he put in a bunch of punchy attacks. Led over the top. Held his lead the whole way down and pushed hard to the line. If he did get a tow off the front, nothing to stop Dumoulin or Froome just holding his wheel...
No-one's criticising Roglic, it's a damn good ride and good win, and he'd be mad not to take advantage. But if the moto is pulling Roglic away then that's affecting the time gaps, and might mean the difference between 2nd, 3rd or 4th in this instance. And that's not right.
Did you see Milan-Sanremo this year?
Yep. No issues with the MSR result this year. My man won 8)
It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
I didn't see any camera bike on the TV footage.0
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Richard T. Biscuit wrote:I didn't see any camera bike on the TV footage.
[sarcasm] where do you think the TV footage came from? [/sarcasm]
Seriously, it did look like he was close at some points, and both Dumoulin and Martin commented on it. I don't know how much it affected the time gap but they certainly felt it did.It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
DeadCalm wrote:
Yep. But might they have been in an even better position if they'd left it to Sky to chase?Rick Chasey wrote:Lotto wanted to protect Roglic and have a go at the stage win?
We'll never know for sure but could this dream scenario have played out for the Dutch if they'd been prepared to lose a little to gain a lot?
Landa group is approaching a four minute lead. Sky start to worry, not too much but enough. They burn Kwia out bringing it back to 2 and a half minutes. They use Bernal at the bottom of the climb. He's still there, but not fresh, when Kruijswick goes. Kruisjwick is no threat so they let him have a small gap. Roglic attacks. Froome tries to mark him but doesn't have the legs. Dumoulin refuses to chase. Sky don't panic but Roglic joins Kruisjwick and they build a minute lead. Now it is getting a bit worrisome. Geraint is forced to chase and brings them to within 20 seconds. Now Tommy attacks...
No question a fantasy and maybe Sky are simply too strong but, when they had to make each crucial decision they settled for what they had rather than rolling the dice and hoping for the big prize. It has happened pretty much every year since I've been watching the Tour, so I'm no longer surprised but I still don't get the thinking.
From a team that’s not had anyone on a GT podium since the halcyon days of Menchov and Rasmussen, it seems quite high stakes for a plan that likely won’t work anyway.
Surely getting on the podium and another stage win in a top stage (and the bonus seconds) is a pretty good return? And this sway risked a lot less.
Easy for the armchair DS to offer up a potential podium.0 -
I kind of understand Jumbo. For me,they are one of the teams of the Tour. I'm probably more confused by Tommy, to be honest. He's got a GT win. He was probably protecting second at the expense of a (long-shot) chance of the ultimate prize when the downside would probably have been coming third. Me, I think I'd have thrown the dice.Rick Chasey wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
Yep. But might they have been in an even better position if they'd left it to Sky to chase?Rick Chasey wrote:Lotto wanted to protect Roglic and have a go at the stage win?
We'll never know for sure but could this dream scenario have played out for the Dutch if they'd been prepared to lose a little to gain a lot?
Landa group is approaching a four minute lead. Sky start to worry, not too much but enough. They burn Kwia out bringing it back to 2 and a half minutes. They use Bernal at the bottom of the climb. He's still there, but not fresh, when Kruijswick goes. Kruisjwick is no threat so they let him have a small gap. Roglic attacks. Froome tries to mark him but doesn't have the legs. Dumoulin refuses to chase. Sky don't panic but Roglic joins Kruisjwick and they build a minute lead. Now it is getting a bit worrisome. Geraint is forced to chase and brings them to within 20 seconds. Now Tommy attacks...
No question a fantasy and maybe Sky are simply too strong but, when they had to make each crucial decision they settled for what they had rather than rolling the dice and hoping for the big prize. It has happened pretty much every year since I've been watching the Tour, so I'm no longer surprised but I still don't get the thinking.
From a team that’s not had anyone on a GT podium since the halcyon days of Menchov and Rasmussen, it seems quite high stakes for a plan that likely won’t work anyway.
Surely getting on the podium and another stage win in a top stage (and the bonus seconds) is a pretty good return?0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
Yep. But might they have been in an even better position if they'd left it to Sky to chase?Rick Chasey wrote:Lotto wanted to protect Roglic and have a go at the stage win?
We'll never know for sure but could this dream scenario have played out for the Dutch if they'd been prepared to lose a little to gain a lot?
Landa group is approaching a four minute lead. Sky start to worry, not too much but enough. They burn Kwia out bringing it back to 2 and a half minutes. They use Bernal at the bottom of the climb. He's still there, but not fresh, when Kruijswick goes. Kruisjwick is no threat so they let him have a small gap. Roglic attacks. Froome tries to mark him but doesn't have the legs. Dumoulin refuses to chase. Sky don't panic but Roglic joins Kruisjwick and they build a minute lead. Now it is getting a bit worrisome. Geraint is forced to chase and brings them to within 20 seconds. Now Tommy attacks...
No question a fantasy and maybe Sky are simply too strong but, when they had to make each crucial decision they settled for what they had rather than rolling the dice and hoping for the big prize. It has happened pretty much every year since I've been watching the Tour, so I'm no longer surprised but I still don't get the thinking.
From a team that’s not had anyone on a GT podium since the halcyon days of Menchov and Rasmussen, it seems quite high stakes for a plan that likely won’t work anyway.
Surely getting on the podium and another stage win in a top stage (and the bonus seconds) is a pretty good return? And this sway risked a lot less.
Easy for the armchair DS to offer up a potential podium.
What Rick says.
This scenario is basically assuming Dumoulin and Kruijswijk/Roglic are riding as if they were the same team - Dumoulin's own podium position was threatened by Roglic so he was never going to refuse to chase.
Podium in the TdF is worth a lot of money so expecting them to roll the dice on a bluff which probably wouldn't work anyway is illogical - G has looked rock solid all race so for all we know he would have followed Dumoulin no problem.0 -
DeadCalm wrote:I'm probably more confused by Tommy, to be honest. He's got a GT win. He was probably protecting second at the expense of a (long-shot) chance of the ultimate prize when the downside would probably have been coming third. Me, I think I'd have thrown the dice.
Every time he has attacked, Thomas has been right on his wheel. there has never been a moment where it looked like Dumoulin had a shot at dropping Thomas.
That must be pretty disheartening.0 -
Think you added this after I replied. Of course. I don't have a job on the line. It's easy for me to say. And there must be a reason for it because, year after year, when push comes to shove, different DSs make the same kind of decisions. It's kind of fun to try and second guess it all though. And I wish I better understood the reasons for them doing so.Rick Chasey wrote:Easy for the armchair DS to offer up a potential podium.0 -
DeadCalm wrote:
Think you added this after I replied. Of course. I don't have a job on the line. It's easy for me to say. And there must be a reason for it because, year after year, when push comes to shove, different DSs make the same kind of decisions. It's kind of fun to try and second guess it all though. And I wish I better understood the reasons for them doing so.Rick Chasey wrote:Easy for the armchair DS to offer up a potential podium.
Guaranteed podium > long odds of winning
Simple as that, I don't see what's so hard to understand0 -
I'm not disagreeing with that. But every time someone attacked that might have been a threat, Dumoulin chased them down and allowed Geraint to sit in his wheel. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he'd forced Geraint to chase and then attacked. Possibly it would have made no difference because Geraint was the strongest rider in this Tour but we'll never know.bobmcstuff wrote:DeadCalm wrote:I'm probably more confused by Tommy, to be honest. He's got a GT win. He was probably protecting second at the expense of a (long-shot) chance of the ultimate prize when the downside would probably have been coming third. Me, I think I'd have thrown the dice.
Every time he has attacked, Thomas has been right on his wheel. there has never been a moment where it looked like Dumoulin had a shot at dropping Thomas.
That must be pretty disheartening.0 -
I kind of understand that but there were times today when TD would probably have only been gambling second against third, rather than a podium spot.bobmcstuff wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
Think you added this after I replied. Of course. I don't have a job on the line. It's easy for me to say. And there must be a reason for it because, year after year, when push comes to shove, different DSs make the same kind of decisions. It's kind of fun to try and second guess it all though. And I wish I better understood the reasons for them doing so.Rick Chasey wrote:Easy for the armchair DS to offer up a potential podium.
Guaranteed podium > long odds of winning
Simple as that, I don't see what's so hard to understand0 -
In reality TD has only won one GT and it wasn’t the Tour, I’m not sure at what point a stage racer’s palmares is strong enough that they can get all Johnny Big Bollocks and say it’s victory or nothing but I’m pretty sure a single Giro victory isn’t it.
I could see Froome rolling the dice because in all honesty what’s a Tour podium to him but there’s nobody else in the race likely to be thinking like that.0 -
Yeah. Probably this.jam1e wrote:In reality TD has only won one GT and it wasn’t the Tour, I’m not sure at what point a stage racer’s palmares is strong enough that they can get all Johnny Big **** and say it’s victory or nothing but I’m pretty sure a single Giro victory isn’t it.
I could see Froome rolling the dice because in all honesty what’s a Tour podium to him but there’s nobody else in the race likely to be thinking like that.0 -
DeadCalm wrote:
I kind of understand that but there were times today when TD would probably have only been gambling second against third, rather than a podium spot.bobmcstuff wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
Think you added this after I replied. Of course. I don't have a job on the line. It's easy for me to say. And there must be a reason for it because, year after year, when push comes to shove, different DSs make the same kind of decisions. It's kind of fun to try and second guess it all though. And I wish I better understood the reasons for them doing so.Rick Chasey wrote:Easy for the armchair DS to offer up a potential podium.
Guaranteed podium > long odds of winning
Simple as that, I don't see what's so hard to understand
Was mentioned in one of the days commentaries - I think it means a lot for him personally (TD) to finish ahead of Froome after what happened in the Giro earlier in the year.0 -
And of course, I'm looking at it from the point of view of a fan who wants excitement, rather than the point of view of a DS who maybe has a performance related bonus to think about. Would love to see how Quickstep would approach a Grand Tour if they had a rider with the potential of Dumoulin or Roglic in their ranks though.DeadCalm wrote:
Yeah. Probably this.jam1e wrote:In reality TD has only won one GT and it wasn’t the Tour, I’m not sure at what point a stage racer’s palmares is strong enough that they can get all Johnny Big **** and say it’s victory or nothing but I’m pretty sure a single Giro victory isn’t it.
I could see Froome rolling the dice because in all honesty what’s a Tour podium to him but there’s nobody else in the race likely to be thinking like that.0 -
tonyf34 wrote:
No it isn't, you get a far bigger tow from a motorcycle than you do a person tucked on a bike, do you not understand basic aerodynamics? :roll:DeadCalm wrote:
100% this.KingstonGraham wrote:mididoctors wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:THE MOTO DECIDED THE WIN AND NO-ONE CARES, BUT WE HAVE 60 PAGES ON A F*CKING ASMTHA INHALER.
You lot are rubbish.
If they could have held his wheel on the descent, they'd all have got the tow. He just rode away from them (and got a tow on his own).
If TD is sprinting hard on a false flat and he stil can't make up on a rider just tucked/coasting it's pretty damn obvious how much of a difference it's making.
For safety and fairness motos need to be pulled out on descents and use other methods for footage
The moto isn't as close as they ride to each other though, and where it is close in the corners speed is limited by your bike handling / risk you take so it's not a constant benefit. Sure it's a factor but towards the finish on the flat where it makes most difference Roglic had no moto and the chasers did have one.
If anyone thinks Roglic got that gap because he had a moto I'd disagree, he got a gap because Dumoulin didn't go round corners as fast - yes once he had the gap Dumoulin was into the wind a bit more but it didn't decide the stage - Majka had a moto in front of him but he was still caught and passed by Roglic. He's just a great descender, I picked it a couple of days ago on here he was always likely to win in that scenario.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Re Roglic moto-tow or not …
A couple of times the pace of the chasers momentarily dropped off, as first Dumoulin then later Froome pulled to the side to let someone else take over. At those moments, Roglic markedly opened the gap. This seems to have been ignored by some in their anger or disappointment.
I didn't feel that Roglic was ever in a moto slipstream, but what might have helped him was seeing how the moto took the bend ahead of him. At first the chasers were similarly able to see how Roglic took the bend, but when they let the gap open, and lost sight of him, they lost that themselves.
Dumoulin should be more pissed that no one else but Froome went to the front. He is probably also pissed that four of his 'tow' overtook him at the line, one in particular taking bonus seconds despite wheelsucking the whole descent. (Or maybe Du didn't feel it diplomatic to criticise the yellow jersey?)0 -
He's a nice guy, but I suspect Dumoulin doesn't think that far. On the other hand, I like the Merckx quality he exhibits.DeadCalm wrote:every time someone attacked that might have been a threat, Dumoulin chased them down and allowed Geraint to sit in his wheel. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he'd forced Geraint to chase and then attacked.
I thought Thomas looked to be struggling early on up the Soulor – but if Dumoulin doesn't notice ….bobmcstuff wrote:Every time he has attacked, Thomas has been right on his wheel. there has never been a moment where it looked like Dumoulin had a shot at dropping Thomas0 -
One in particular? When did Bardet take a turn in those closing kms?0
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It's part of racing anyway - they all know motos lead the race to get pictures.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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knedlicky wrote:
He's a nice guy, but I suspect Dumoulin doesn't think that far. On the other hand, I like the Merckx quality he exhibits.DeadCalm wrote:every time someone attacked that might have been a threat, Dumoulin chased them down and allowed Geraint to sit in his wheel. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he'd forced Geraint to chase and then attacked.
I thought Thomas looked to be struggling early on up the Soulor – but if Dumoulin doesn't notice ….bobmcstuff wrote:Every time he has attacked, Thomas has been right on his wheel. there has never been a moment where it looked like Dumoulin had a shot at dropping Thomas
Not according to Thomas.
He said it was hard, but never felt like he couldn't follow the moves."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:knedlicky wrote:
He's a nice guy, but I suspect Dumoulin doesn't think that far. On the other hand, I like the Merckx quality he exhibits.DeadCalm wrote:every time someone attacked that might have been a threat, Dumoulin chased them down and allowed Geraint to sit in his wheel. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he'd forced Geraint to chase and then attacked.
I thought Thomas looked to be struggling early on up the Soulor – but if Dumoulin doesn't notice ….bobmcstuff wrote:Every time he has attacked, Thomas has been right on his wheel. there has never been a moment where it looked like Dumoulin had a shot at dropping Thomas
Not according to Thomas.
He said it was hard, but never felt like he couldn't follow the moves.
Agreed. At no point did he look to be struggling. He looked completely in control.0 -
This is a joke, isn't it?knedlicky wrote:Dumoulin should be more pissed that no one else but Froome went to the front. He is probably also pissed that four of his 'tow' overtook him at the line, one in particular taking bonus seconds despite wheelsucking the whole descent. (Or maybe Du didn't feel it diplomatic to criticise the yellow jersey?)0 -
knedlicky wrote:
Dumoulin should be more pissed that no one else but Froome went to the front. He is probably also pissed that four of his 'tow' overtook him at the line, one in particular taking bonus seconds despite wheelsucking the whole descent. (Or maybe Du didn't feel it diplomatic to criticise the yellow jersey?)
It's.. it's well, it's a bike race. If he criticised Thomas for that well, he'd be better off giving up I thinkFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
