Giro 2018, Stage 19: Turin - Monte Jafferau - 184 kilometres. *Spoilers*

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Comments

  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,332
    OnYourRight wrote:
    Shock and awe tactics by Sky going into the Tour. “This is what you’re up against.”

    Whilst also appearing to be delivering on the promise to be more open...

    ETA - after reading the article and some of the links, I think the most interesting thing is to discover quite how much input Froome appears to have had over the tactics. It's not the top-down robotic racing that it's often decried as being - Froome wants to race, and the calculations are in place to allow him to do so.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • kleinstroker
    kleinstroker Posts: 2,133
    Above The Cows wrote:
    But seriously how can you get 400g of rice, 3 egg (whites), 1 egg yolk and 4 pancakes down your cake hole in the morning?

    I'd be sick.

    In a smoothie??
  • andyrac
    andyrac Posts: 1,197
    Above The Cows wrote:
    Jeremy Whittle, an expert... Lol.

    I had to laugh at some of his comments; he's most definitely 'old school'/ luddite.....
    All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    kleinstroker wrote:
    Above The Cows wrote:
    But seriously how can you get 400g of rice, 3 egg (whites), 1 egg yolk and 4 pancakes down your cake hole in the morning?

    I'd be sick.

    In a smoothie??

    Then I'd definitely be sick. :?
    Correlation is not causation.
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,317
    A fascinating break down of the Giro stages from Sky. Whilst on the one hand it reveals the mechanics of glorious victory; on the other, it doesn’t do anything to counter the criticism of them taking all the romance out of things...

    The single piece of info that I’m amazed isn’t being made more of a fuss about (and it was the thing revealed when Froome got tested at GSK lab in London a few years ago) is his heart beat and therefore stroke volume at max HR. In the attack on Finestre to drop his rivals, it only went to 155! I don’t know the average max HR of a GT GC contender, but would guess around the 185-190 area. On that basis, at peak demand (for the sake of argument- and if my shaky maths is correct) Froome’s heart is able to pump 19.5%. more blood per beat (with his max on that stage at 159) than his rivals.
    Nothing marginal there.
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    A fascinating break down of the Giro stages from Sky. Whilst on the one hand it reveals the mechanics of glorious victory; on the other, it doesn’t do anything to counter the criticism of them taking all the romance out of things...

    The single piece of info that I’m amazed isn’t being made more of a fuss about (and it was the thing revealed when Froome got tested at GSK lab in London a few years ago) is his heart beat and therefore stroke volume at max HR. In the attack on Finestre to drop his rivals, it only went to 155! I don’t know the average max HR of a GT GC contender, but would guess around the 185-190 area. On that basis, at peak demand (for the sake of argument- and if my shaky maths is correct) Froome’s heart is able to pump 19.5%. more blood per beat (with his max on that stage at 159) than his rivals.
    Nothing marginal there.
    So it's been organ doping all along. Sky have opened up his chest and put a massive heart in there. What do we reckon, cow, camel or horse? I'm off to the clinic with this new theory.
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    Surely he (and the chasers) wouldn't approach max to acheive a breakaway. No GC contenderr would want to go into the red 80km from the finish. There's no other GC rider data to compare is there?
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    Yeah but his max on the final climb was only 159, average 151.

    http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/england/pdf/froome_stage19.pdf
    Correlation is not causation.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    Above The Cows wrote:
    But seriously how can you get 400g of rice, 3 egg (whites), 1 egg yolk and 4 pancakes down your cake hole in the morning?

    I'd be sick.

    Maybe it's fake news and they'll be chuckling when all his rivals try to copy and end up throwing up all over the Alps as he spins off into the distance having had his bowl of Weetabix.
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,249
    Pross wrote:
    Above The Cows wrote:
    But seriously how can you get 400g of rice, 3 egg (whites), 1 egg yolk and 4 pancakes down your cake hole in the morning?

    I'd be sick.

    Maybe it's fake news and they'll be chuckling when all his rivals try to copy and end up throwing up all over the Alps as he spins off into the distance having had his bowl of Weetabix.
    Three shredded wheat I think you'll find.
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    No no...

    81DecYr9n5L._SL1500_.jpg

    Or perhaps...

    CLEN2118.jpg

    Ah man I could murder a bowl of cereal right now. All we have is some poncey granola.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,249
    Count yourself lucky. Cereal is not a concept that the Thai's understand. I think it's been two years now without even a sniff of a rice crispie.
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    Lots of rice though, could you not try and make your own? :wink:
    Correlation is not causation.
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,249
    Above The Cows wrote:
    Lots of rice though, could you not try and make your own? :wink:
    Ooh. I like your thinking.

    This time next year I'm going to be the rice crispie king of south east Asia.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Above The Cows wrote:
    But seriously how can you get 400g of rice, 3 egg (whites), 1 egg yolk and 4 pancakes down your cake hole in the morning?

    I'd be sick.

    I used eat a bowl of pasta with sugar sprinkled on it.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • onyourright
    onyourright Posts: 509
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    I don’t know the average max HR of a GT GC contender, but would guess around the 185-190 area. On that basis, at peak demand (for the sake of argument- and if my shaky maths is correct) Froome’s heart is able to pump 19.5%. more blood per beat (with his max on that stage at 159) than his rivals.
    Nothing marginal there.
    But his heart beats more slowly, so where’s the net gain? Everything I’ve read* says people have naturally different heart rates and that difference matters little to performance.



    * Practically nothing. I wish I could be bothered to learn a bit about exercise physiology, but I haven’t mustered the energy to do so in years so it seems unlikely to happen in this lifetime.
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,317
    Above The Cows wrote:
    No no...

    81DecYr9n5L._SL1500_.jpg

    Or perhaps...

    CLEN2118.jpg

    Ah man I could murder a bowl of cereal right now. All we have is some poncey granola.

    Whilst I understand your sentiment (especially whilst hungover), sugar doused processed grain product from the world’s biggest b@stard food b@stards is hardly the way forward now, is it?

    Having said that, did I ever tell you about my first time on Crunchy Nut? What a rush! You tell the kids these days and they don’t know what you’re on about - they cut the cereals with all kinds of stuff now, but back in 1987, etc etc...Cont. p94...
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,317
    OnYourRight wrote:
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    I don’t know the average max HR of a GT GC contender, but would guess around the 185-190 area. On that basis, at peak demand (for the sake of argument- and if my shaky maths is correct) Froome’s heart is able to pump 19.5%. more blood per beat (with his max on that stage at 159) than his rivals.
    Nothing marginal there.
    But his heart beats more slowly, so where’s the net gain? Everything I’ve read* says people have naturally different heart rates and that difference matters little to performance.



    * Practically nothing. I wish I could be bothered to learn a bit about exercise physiology, but I haven’t mustered the energy to do so in years so it seems unlikely to happen in this lifetime.

    Well, one could argue that the net gain is that he’s won a sh!t load of GTs? And maybe there is something about having the heart of a Yukon sled dog in the body of a guinea pig over having the heart of a guinea pig in the body of a sled dog...? Sorry, that’s gone a bit Eric Cantona...

    I would say that 155-159 bpm (or 163 was his previously highest recorded HR, I think) is still uncommonly low. For an athlete to be considered amongst the elite of the elite is quite something. And despite all the noise around how much money Sky have, their meticulous planning and how awful he looks on a bike etc, etc, this info is really starting to identify what enables him to operate at enough of a athletic superiority to win the world’s most demanding races with enough regularity that he can start to be considered amongst the greats of the sport. And I just think the heart data thing has been a bit overlooked...
  • mamil314
    mamil314 Posts: 1,103
    Brodude, look up heartrates of top tier endurance athletes and marvel at low numbers, their hearts are very strong. My PT instructor was an old geezer into running, with HR in 40s. Due to training, HR range seems to shift, so, since Froome's is 34bpm and normal person's like 65, his attacking HR might be equivalent of 185ish.
  • onyourright
    onyourright Posts: 509
    Contador was a decent endurance athlete and he talked about his heart rate hitting 200 BPM.
  • apriliarider
    apriliarider Posts: 222
    OnYourRight wrote:
    Contador was a decent endurance athlete and he talked about his heart rate hitting 200 BPM.

    The ultimate max rate is unimportant as it varies between person to person - the main difference being the volume of blood it displaces per beat - small heart = lots of beats for a similar flow.

    I would imagine the range of min to max is most important but am not medical so over to you guys :D
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    mamil314 wrote:
    Brodude, look up heartrates of top tier endurance athletes and marvel at low numbers, their hearts are very strong. My PT instructor was an old geezer into running, with HR in 40s. Due to training, HR range seems to shift, so, since Froome's is 34bpm and normal person's like 65, his attacking HR might be equivalent of 185ish.

    I'm not convinced a low resting HR is indicative of fitness. In my mid 40s and borderline overweight mine is in the low 40s and sometimes high 30s. My main exercise these days is running, I average around 20 miles per week, but I'm slow and get my backside kicked by people far older / heavier. Maybe I have brachicardia!
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    mamil314 wrote:
    Brodude, look up heartrates of top tier endurance athletes and marvel at low numbers, their hearts are very strong. My PT instructor was an old geezer into running, with HR in 40s. Due to training, HR range seems to shift, so, since Froome's is 34bpm and normal person's like 65, his attacking HR might be equivalent of 185ish.

    Isn't it usually RHR which goes down when you are fit... I didn't believe there was much impact on MHR.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    apriliarider wrote:
    OnYourRight wrote:
    Contador was a decent endurance athlete and he talked about his heart rate hitting 200 BPM.

    The ultimate max rate is unimportant as it varies between person to person - the main difference being the volume of blood it displaces per beat - small heart = lots of beats for a similar flow.

    I would imagine the range of min to max is most important but am not medical so over to you guys :D

    Range and how quickly it comes back down is what I've been told in the past. At the top end I always think of it like a car, you can have a small high revving engine or a big engine that puts out the same power at lower RPM.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    mamil314 wrote:
    Brodude, look up heartrates of top tier endurance athletes and marvel at low numbers, their hearts are very strong. My PT instructor was an old geezer into running, with HR in 40s. Due to training, HR range seems to shift, so, since Froome's is 34bpm and normal person's like 65, his attacking HR might be equivalent of 185ish.

    Isn't it usually RHR which goes down when you are fit... I didn't believe there was much impact on MHR.

    You can have a different MHR depending on the type of exercise but I also understand it is fairly fixed and reduces with age with training just making the body use the oxygen more efficiently.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,182
    In a population of healthy males between about 20-50 , (HRmax/HRresting)*15.3 correlates closely with VO2 max.
    That suggests that a low denominator (resting HR) will have a bigger impact.

    Means diddly squat in any one individual though, and as AtC's signature says.......
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    Above The Cows wrote:
    No no...

    81DecYr9n5L._SL1500_.jpg

    Or perhaps...

    CLEN2118.jpg

    Ah man I could murder a bowl of cereal right now. All we have is some poncey granola.

    Whilst I understand your sentiment (especially whilst hungover), sugar doused processed grain product from the world’s biggest b@stard food b@stards is hardly the way forward now, is it?

    Having said that, did I ever tell you about my first time on Crunchy Nut? What a rush! You tell the kids these days and they don’t know what you’re on about - they cut the cereals with all kinds of stuff now, but back in 1987, etc etc...Cont. p94...

    But the first food listed in the BBC article is Haribo. I just need to know if it's Starmix or Tangfastics.
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    Pross wrote:
    I'm not convinced a low resting HR is indicative of fitness. In my mid 40s and borderline overweight mine is in the low 40s and sometimes high 30s. My main exercise these days is running, I average around 20 miles per week, but I'm slow and get my backside kicked by people far older / heavier. Maybe I have brachicardia!
    Yep. I was quite pleased when I realised my resting heart rate was high 40s, which was low enough to regularly cause healthcare professionals to raise an eyebrow and ask if that was normal for me and how much exercise I do.

    I then discovered that a close relative's resting heart rate is very low 50s. He's in his 60s, not massively active, drinks and eats too much and is obese. Makes me suspect I just have a genetically low resting heart rate.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    In a population of healthy males between about 20-50 , (HRmax/HRresting)*15.3 correlates closely with VO2 max.
    That suggests that a low denominator (resting HR) will have a bigger impact.

    Means diddly squat in any one individual though, and as AtC's signature says.......

    Wish that would work for me, I'd have a VO2 max of around 60 (my Garmin currently calculates it at 42)!
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,182
    mrfpb wrote:

    But the first food listed in the BBC article is Haribo. I just need to know if it's Starmix or Tangfastics.

    Should we be blaming Wiggle for all this then?

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