Giro 2018, Stage 19: Turin - Monte Jafferau - 184 kilometres. *Spoilers*

ShutupJens

Mouth wrote:

Sends a message to anyone in the TdF though - his head's certainly in the right place to be winning bike races.

That it does. We knew he was a scrapper from the spanish ambushes in the Vuelta, but this shows a different style of mental fortitude, so even if he's tired at the tour and consistently losing small chunks of time, his rivals are going to be wary of his presence

milton50

Sorry if this has been posted before somewhere else on the forum. Quite an interesting article about the planning of that stage from Sky and what was going on during the stage.

Interesting that the idea to really give it everything on the descent came from Tosatto.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44372328

larkim

Good to see the Beeb doing something of a less cynical article on Froome / Team Sky. Was just about to post the same link!

shirley_basso

Loved reading that.

salsiccia1

When you read that article, the more you realise just how perfect it was. I watched it live and I knew I was watching something very special, but on reflection it gets better and better. Simply magnificent.

graeme_s-2

I think the reason it looked so spectacular (and to some "unbelievable") is it panned out absolutely perfectly for them. So many aspects of it could have gone wrong, which would have seen Froome improve his position but not take pink.

ShutupJens

Graeme_S wrote:

I think the reason it looked so spectacular (and to some "unbelievable") is it panned out absolutely perfectly for them. So many aspects of it could have gone wrong, which would have seen Froome improve his position but not take pink.

It just goes to show the difference that full preparation can make doesn't it? Sky have never been about making decisions on the road, whereas Dumoulin knew what was going to happen and still seemed to be indecisive

graeme_s-2

ShutupJens wrote:

It just goes to show the difference that full preparation can make doesn't it? Sky have never been about making decisions on the road, whereas Dumoulin knew what was going to happen and still seemed to be indecisive

If they'd had that plan, executed it exactly as they did, but as they came over the summit of the Finestre Dumoulin had committed to chase Froome solo then I strongly suspect Dumoulin would have been in pink at the end of the day. Froome's effort would have been seen as a bold attack that didn't quite pay off. That was completely out of Sky's control. They rolled the dice, but they got incredibly lucky with the choices the riders behind them made and the riders who ended up in the "chase" group.

TheBigBean

Froome may have been able to take more time out of Dumoulin on stage 20 if he wanted to.

larkim

Graeme_S wrote:

ShutupJens wrote:

It just goes to show the difference that full preparation can make doesn't it? Sky have never been about making decisions on the road, whereas Dumoulin knew what was going to happen and still seemed to be indecisive

If they'd had that plan, executed it exactly as they did, but as they came over the summit of the Finestre Dumoulin had committed to chase Froome solo then I strongly suspect Dumoulin would have been in pink at the end of the day. Froome's effort would have been seen as a bold attack that didn't quite pay off. That was completely out of Sky's control. They rolled the dice, but they got incredibly lucky with the choices the riders behind them made and the riders who ended up in the "chase" group.

I can only think that the logic going through TD's brain at that point was that he didn't expect Froome to be able to ride away beyond the top of the first climb, certainly not enough to take pink. That was a huge miscalculation on his part.

Either that, or he simply didn't have the legs to try to go with Froome at that point, even if he'd tried to tap into his full on sprint to the line reserves and treated the top of the climb as the finish line for the day.

You can credit Sky with two things - 1) being reasonably certain that Yates was on the ropes and could be dropped without too much difficulty, and 2) planning in sufficient detail the rest of the route "just in case" the miracle happened and TD let Froome go.

Beyond that they weren't in control, and as the posts during the ride noted anyone with any tactical nous could see that TD was hurting no-one but himself by his approach to the rest of the stage, even accounting for the fact that he clearly misled himself about how capable Froome was once he was out soloing.

Of course, there'll be plenty of posts wanting to see documentary proof that the descriptions of the planning for the day etc are kosher, but that article felt to me like an honest account of a team not quite believing how well their plan went.

shirley_basso

If Yates had hung on, then 'phase 1' would have failed - would he had ridden on?
Going from 4th to 3nd would still have been nice even with Yates and TD on his wheel.

That said, who was to say that Dumoulin would have stuck with them making a trio of breakaway leaders, so he could have leapfrogged to 2nd.

People keep saying Froome is boring, but Dumoulin is boring, much more like Wiggins' style of riding. Which other GC contender has the mindset to consider such a move, rather than nipping off with a few K to go.

That stage where Nibali caught up to Scarponi (I think?, RIP) is one I can think of. Awesome day.

larkim

From TD's point of view. boring is probably his best tactic to get the most out of himself across a GT. Some people are better at constant measured effort, others can surge and be more dynamic. And different approaches may win on different days.

graeme_s-2

Shirley Basso wrote:

If Yates had hung on, then 'phase 1' would have failed - would he had ridden on?
Going from 4th to 3nd would still have been nice even with Yates and TD on his wheel.

I suspect he would have done. If he hadn't got a gap on the Finestre there was still plenty of hard riding to go and it would have made sense to keep testing Dumoulin and Yates.

kingstongraham

Graeme_S wrote:

ShutupJens wrote:

It just goes to show the difference that full preparation can make doesn't it? Sky have never been about making decisions on the road, whereas Dumoulin knew what was going to happen and still seemed to be indecisive

If they'd had that plan, executed it exactly as they did, but as they came over the summit of the Finestre Dumoulin had committed to chase Froome solo then I strongly suspect Dumoulin would have been in pink at the end of the day. Froome's effort would have been seen as a bold attack that didn't quite pay off. That was completely out of Sky's control. They rolled the dice, but they got incredibly lucky with the choices the riders behind them made and the riders who ended up in the "chase" group.

Conversely, I think that if Pinot and Reichenbach had left all the chasing on the flatter section to Dumoulin, Pinot might have moved a lot closer to second overall.

bobmcstuff

Hasn't TD already said he couldn't go with Froome on the Finestre?

As bigbean says, I think if Froome hadn't quite managed pink on stage 19 he would have been able to take a bit more time on 20. Would have been touch and go though.

larkim

I can't believe that TD really couldn't go with Froome in the sense that if he'd been being chased by a bear he wouldn't have been able to keep up. I read TD's comments as being that he didn't feel he could go with Froome in the context of where that effort was on the stage. But that may well be my over-interpretation.

rick_chasey

larkim wrote:

I can't believe that TD really couldn't go with Froome in the sense that if he'd been being chased by a bear he wouldn't have been able to keep up. I read TD's comments as being that he didn't feel he could go with Froome in the context of where that effort was on the stage. But that may well be my over-interpretation.

I'd say that's over interpretation.

He was gassing hard to keep the gap to Froome under 40 seconds by the top and failed. Hence looking around and asking for help.

If he was feeling strong and had gas to spare he'd have just pushed on. People tend to hesitate and ask for help when they are feeling weak, not strong.

m.r.m.

Outside of waiting for Reichenbach, Tom did the prudent thing at the time. Problem was Lopez and Carapaz fighting for the white jersey and just hanging on. The perfect choice would have been to try to bridge, but I doubt anyone would have given that advice 70-80 km from the line. Had Pinot not been on the verge of pneumonia, it may have been enough to catch Froome anyway.

This is what makes the Sky/Froome tactic such a masterpiece. All these things happened as a result of them applying that amount of pressure. And that is what great champions do. Dictate terms and give the others impossible choices.

RichN95.

Milton50 wrote:

Sorry if this has been posted before somewhere else on the forum. Quite an interesting article about the planning of that stage from Sky and what was going on during the stage.

Interesting that the idea to really give it everything on the descent came from Tosatto.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44372328

The article is just part of a long interview (40-50 minutes) with Brailsrod and Kerrison on the Bespoke podcast

davidof

larkim wrote:

Either that, or he simply didn't have the legs to try to go with Froome at that point, even if he'd tried to tap into his full on sprint to the line reserves and treated the top of the climb as the finish line for the day.

Watch the stage again and as Dumoulin comes over the Finistre he looks spent. I'm sure if a Nibabli or Bidet had been up there they would have chased Froome down (or at least limited the losses) but Dumoulin was dead and there was no-one else.

m.r.m.

That Bidet would have certainly helped Dumoulin last year!

No_Ta_Doctor

Dumoulin thought he'd be ok with losing a minute (I think, or was it half a minute?) to Froome on the ascent, that's what he said in the video from the evening before. But he maybe hadn't calculated on quite how hard Sky had made the race early and how much he'd put in to holding the wheels before Froome attacked. It was absolutely brutal.

above_the_cows

As I had to explain in excruciating detail in my Dutch class today, Tom lost the Giro on this stage. I did get thanks for teaching the rest of the class certain cycling terms though: wieltjeszuiger, in de boter trappen.

I better pass this bloody citizenship exam now.

Mad_Malx

Trapped in the butter?

No_Ta_Doctor

Above The Cows wrote:

As I had to explain in excruciating detail in my Dutch class today, Tom lost the Giro on this stage. I did get thanks for teaching the rest of the class certain cycling terms though: wieltjeszuiger, in de boter trappen.

I better pass this bloody citizenship exam now.

Tom didn't want to get stuck on a potato hunt (I can't remember the Dutch term, but it's originally Dutch)

above_the_cows

Mad_Malx wrote:

Trapped in the butter?

Ha you'd think, but Dutch is tricksy like that, it literally translates as 'in the butter kick/kick in the butter', it actually means smooth pedal strokes, a nice idiom I think.

above_the_cows

No tA Doctor wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

As I had to explain in excruciating detail in my Dutch class today, Tom lost the Giro on this stage. I did get thanks for teaching the rest of the class certain cycling terms though: wieltjeszuiger, in de boter trappen.

I better pass this bloody citizenship exam now.

Tom didn't want to get stuck on a potato hunt (I can't remember the Dutch term, but it's originally Dutch)

Chasse patate.

inseine

I makes me wonder if the meticulous planning of this stage was a one off or have Sky done it before and it just didn't pay off so we never hear about it. Conversely is it something we'll now do more of. I appreciate that Froome was in an unusual position.

Bo Duke

Bet it was a wild card one-off. Even the coach driver was out on course.....

carbonclem

You can imagine this was more that just CF winning a GT. The whole annual Giro nightmare for Sky needed putting to bed once and for all, there must be a fair amount of relief/achievement in finally winning it.

PR/Flanders next?