2019 Transfers - Rumours and Confirmations

RichN95.

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on" - Samuel Goldwyn

Vino'sGhost

A contract is a contract. This deal is at best murky.

Honour and doing the right thing is something alien to rich we need only witness his attitude to Wiggins cheating to see him for what he is.

andyp

Vino'sGhost wrote:

A contract is a contract. This deal is at best murky.

Honour and doing the right thing is something alien to rich we need only witness his attitude to Wiggins cheating to see him for what he is.

Rich can speak for himself, although if he has any sense he won't engage with a common or garden troll, but the fact that Wiggins hasn't been charged, never mind convicted, with any doping infraction would suggest that Rich is fully aware of the using facts to back up his arguments.

bobmcstuff

So what was the Dumoulin thing? Come on guys I'm relying on you.

RichN95.

bobmcstuff wrote:

So what was the Dumoulin thing? Come on guys I'm relying on you.

Nothing special, He's setting up some sort of event for youngsters in Maastricht - Tour de Dumoulin.

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/5431/tour ... ymous-race

bobmcstuff

RichN95 wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

So what was the Dumoulin thing? Come on guys I'm relying on you.

Nothing special, He's setting up some sort of event for youngsters in Maastricht - Tour de Dumoulin.

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/5431/tour ... ymous-race

Oh I thought that was some sort of joke I didn't understand...

Meh.

blazing_saddles

More mud for these troubled waters.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/raci ... eal-396826

WorldTour team Trek-Segafredo announced in August that they had signed Sosa for 2019.

Sosa said at the time: “I am really, very happy to join Trek-Segafredo as of next year.”

Over the last two months however, Sosa changed agents and the source close to the deal said “apparently he didn’t have a contract.”
Steps were made between Trek-Segafredo to pay out Sosa’s contract with team Androni, where Sosa had a deal through to 2020.

But “the fact that he didn’t have a Trek contract was only clarified afterwards, even Guercilena said so,” according to Cycling Weekly’s source.

Vino'sGhost

andyp wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

A contract is a contract. This deal is at best murky.

Honour and doing the right thing is something alien to rich we need only witness his attitude to Wiggins cheating to see him for what he is.

Rich can speak for himself, although if he has any sense he won't engage with a common or garden troll, but the fact that Wiggins hasn't been charged, never mind convicted, with any doping infraction would suggest that Rich is fully aware of the using facts to back up his arguments.

awww are you making my point for me common or garden PED apologist.

inseine

As I said before, It's easy to be high handed but he's a young kid and whether he had a contract or not with Trek, Sky come along and offer more money, a three year contract and the chance to ride with his mate. You've got to see the appeal in all that.

bobmcstuff

inseine wrote:

As I said before, It's easy to be high handed but he's a young kid and whether he had a contract or not with Trek, Sky come along and offer more money, a three year contract and the chance to ride with his mate. You've got to see the appeal in all that.

All of this "debate" is purely speculation shaped by posters opinions of Sky (or what they think will get the best rise out of other posters).

Nobody on here actually knows what happened.

ddraver

bobmcstuff wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

So what was the Dumoulin thing? Come on guys I'm relying on you.

Nothing special, He's setting up some sort of event for youngsters in Maastricht - Tour de Dumoulin.

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/5431/tour ... ymous-race

Oh I thought that was some sort of joke I didn't understand...

Meh.

Q - Tom, you invited us all here for a press conference and gave us no specific details on what it would be about making us think it was a really big deal. Is it fair to say you played us like violins?

A - Ja, Precis...

inseine

bobmcstuff wrote:

inseine wrote:

As I said before, It's easy to be high handed but he's a young kid and whether he had a contract or not with Trek, Sky come along and offer more money, a three year contract and the chance to ride with his mate. You've got to see the appeal in all that.

All of this "debate" is purely speculation shaped by posters opinions of Sky (or what they think will get the best rise out of other posters).

Nobody on here actually knows what happened.

That kinda sums up most posts on here

FocusZing

Rich's quote. It's a lesson to get a written signed contract, everything else is subjective waffle.

Vino'sGhost

well the good news for lawyers the word over is that contracts can written, they can be verbal they can be tight and they can be disputed they can be specific and also implied.

What i do know though is that where services are to be delivered personally and where the performance of that delivery can be affected by the individuals motivation then moves of this kind frequently undermine the relationship and sour it from the start.

That is just one reason why better to hire someone for the right reasons and motivation rather than just the money.

FocusZing

Vino'sGhost wrote:

well the good news for lawyers the word over is that contracts can written, they can be verbal they can be tight and they can be disputed they can be specific and also implied.

What i do know though is that where services are to be delivered personally and where the performance of that delivery can be affected by the individuals motivation then moves of this kind frequently undermine the relationship and sour it from the start.

That is just one reason why better to hire someone for the right reasons and motivation rather than just the money.

That went in one ear and out the other.

ContrelaMontre

I was offered and accepted a job and before I took it up I was approached by a more established company offering me a different and more interesting role which I took the day before I was supposed to start at the original offer. Should I have jeopardised my entire career prospects by being 'honourable' and stuck with the original offer? If you think I should have then you are foolish. As a professional cyclist's career is very short they have to maximise their opportunities available to them.

orraloon

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I was offered and accepted a job and before I took it up I was approached by a more established company offering me a different and more interesting role which I took the day before I was supposed to start at the original offer. Should I have jeopardised my entire career prospects by being 'honourable' and stuck with the original offer? If you think I should have then you are foolish. As a professional cyclist's career is very short they have to maximise their opportunities available to them.

You (non gender specific) Sir are a dishonourable Skybot of dubious character.

Hang on, what's that sound...oh it's the real world calling...

DeadCalm

Pross wrote:

OK - completely hypothetical - a 20 year old gets advised to take a deal that pays him $200k per year by an agent that takes a bung of $50k to give him that advice when there is another deal on the table that is paying him $300k per year but no bung for the agent. The agent doesn't tell the rider of the other deal and he takes the advice at face value and announces his intention to sign. The agent is dismissed for whatever reason and a new agent comes in who makes the alternative offer known. Are you honestly saying that, in that situation, the rider would be in the wrong to change his mind? I'm not suggesting anything like that happened rather just pointing out that without knowing all the facts you can't really make an informed judgement on the rights and wrongs of the situation.

Wishful thinking. Sosa agreed to join Trek before the Vuelta a Burgos. Androni have confirmed that the buyout of 120,000 euros was a percentage of the contract Trek offered Sosa. Any percentage above 20 percent on two years salary would almost certainly be unenforceable. Androni wouldn't accept less than 10 percent so we can tell that his contract was worth between 1.2 million and 560,000 euros over two years. That would have been a decent wedge for an unproven talent. What changed was that Sosa won the Vuelta a Burgos and made Sky's best guys in that race look second rate. Then, Sky saw Sosa's potential and were prepared to pay significantly more and the new agent (who Sky have a close working relationship with) got involved and turned his head. Whether the agent came first or Sky came first is irrelevant. It was still shabby.

DeadCalm

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I was offered and accepted a job and before I took it up I was approached by a more established company offering me a different and more interesting role which I took the day before I was supposed to start at the original offer. Should I have jeopardised my entire career prospects by being 'honourable' and stuck with the original offer? If you think I should have then you are foolish. As a professional cyclist's career is very short they have to maximise their opportunities available to them.

Which you were perfectly entitled to do. And I am entitled to think that you are a dishonourable scumbag for doing so. As I said before, I suspect that it is a generational thing. I was brought up to honour promises I made and to suffer with dignity the consequences of doing so. You may think I am foolish but that is how I was brought up.

And just to clarify that this is not an anti-Sky thing as the BS merchant would have you believe, I no longer consider myself to be a fan of Van Aert who I'd previously cheered on, albeit not so enthusiastically as I was starting to cheer for Sosa.

Incidentally, I have no personal experience of such situations in sport. However, I have had a moderate amount of experience from my time working as a lawyer in the music industry of bands reneging on deals with indie labels to sign with major labels. In almost every circumstance (one notable band excepted) it didn't work out as well for the band as they had hoped or expected.

Pross

Must be a nice view up there on the moral high ground.

ddraver

I'm not that interested in this but it would not surprise me much that Sosa has had naff all to do with any of it and has just done what his agents have told him to. I'd go further and say that as a 20yr old with likely zero knowledge of how it all works he would have been well advised to do so.

DC may not like agents...few do...but it is literally their job to get the best deal for their clients, a lot of which involves playing people off against each other.

cruff

DeadCalm wrote:

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I was offered and accepted a job and before I took it up I was approached by a more established company offering me a different and more interesting role which I took the day before I was supposed to start at the original offer. Should I have jeopardised my entire career prospects by being 'honourable' and stuck with the original offer? If you think I should have then you are foolish. As a professional cyclist's career is very short they have to maximise their opportunities available to them.

Which you were perfectly entitled to do. And I am entitled to think that you are a dishonourable scumbag for doing so. As I said before, I suspect that it is a generational thing. I was brought up to honour promises I made and to suffer with dignity the consequences of doing so. You may think I am foolish but that is how I was brought up.

And just to clarify that this is not an anti-Sky thing as the BS merchant would have you believe, I no longer consider myself to be a fan of Van Aert who I'd previously cheered on, albeit not so enthusiastically as I was starting to cheer for Sosa.

Incidentally, I have no personal experience of such situations in sport. However, I have had a moderate amount of experience from my time working as a lawyer in the music industry of bands reneging on deals with indie labels to sign with major labels. In almost every circumstance (one notable band excepted) it didn't work out as well for the band as they had hoped or expected.

Don't know how old you are, but considering I'm an old git, I'm guessing it's not much older than me. I think you have a very old fashioned view if the world of work. I'm an honourable man in everything else I do in life - but the days where companies showed ANY loyalty to you whatsoever are so far in the past they're sepia-toned. In this instance, he was perfectly within his rights to accept a better offer after verbally accepting a contract. Calling him a scumbag is naive in the extreme

gsk82

Cruff wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I was offered and accepted a job and before I took it up I was approached by a more established company offering me a different and more interesting role which I took the day before I was supposed to start at the original offer. Should I have jeopardised my entire career prospects by being 'honourable' and stuck with the original offer? If you think I should have then you are foolish. As a professional cyclist's career is very short they have to maximise their opportunities available to them.

Which you were perfectly entitled to do. And I am entitled to think that you are a dishonourable scumbag for doing so. As I said before, I suspect that it is a generational thing. I was brought up to honour promises I made and to suffer with dignity the consequences of doing so. You may think I am foolish but that is how I was brought up.

And just to clarify that this is not an anti-Sky thing as the BS merchant would have you believe, I no longer consider myself to be a fan of Van Aert who I'd previously cheered on, albeit not so enthusiastically as I was starting to cheer for Sosa.

Incidentally, I have no personal experience of such situations in sport. However, I have had a moderate amount of experience from my time working as a lawyer in the music industry of bands reneging on deals with indie labels to sign with major labels. In almost every circumstance (one notable band excepted) it didn't work out as well for the band as they had hoped or expected.

Don't know how old you are, but considering I'm an old git, I'm guessing it's not much older than me. I think you have a very old fashioned view if the world of work. I'm an honourable man in everything else I do in life - but the days where companies showed ANY loyalty to you whatsoever are so far in the past they're sepia-toned. In this instance, he was perfectly within his rights to accept a better offer after verbally accepting a contract. Calling him a scumbag is naive in the extreme

Out of interest where are you from Cruff and DeadCalm? I have a suspicion based solely on the quoted posts that one of you is from the south east and the other isn't.

DeadCalm

gsk82 wrote:

Cruff wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I was offered and accepted a job and before I took it up I was approached by a more established company offering me a different and more interesting role which I took the day before I was supposed to start at the original offer. Should I have jeopardised my entire career prospects by being 'honourable' and stuck with the original offer? If you think I should have then you are foolish. As a professional cyclist's career is very short they have to maximise their opportunities available to them.

Which you were perfectly entitled to do. And I am entitled to think that you are a dishonourable scumbag for doing so. As I said before, I suspect that it is a generational thing. I was brought up to honour promises I made and to suffer with dignity the consequences of doing so. You may think I am foolish but that is how I was brought up.

And just to clarify that this is not an anti-Sky thing as the BS merchant would have you believe, I no longer consider myself to be a fan of Van Aert who I'd previously cheered on, albeit not so enthusiastically as I was starting to cheer for Sosa.

Incidentally, I have no personal experience of such situations in sport. However, I have had a moderate amount of experience from my time working as a lawyer in the music industry of bands reneging on deals with indie labels to sign with major labels. In almost every circumstance (one notable band excepted) it didn't work out as well for the band as they had hoped or expected.

Don't know how old you are, but considering I'm an old git, I'm guessing it's not much older than me. I think you have a very old fashioned view if the world of work. I'm an honourable man in everything else I do in life - but the days where companies showed ANY loyalty to you whatsoever are so far in the past they're sepia-toned. In this instance, he was perfectly within his rights to accept a better offer after verbally accepting a contract. Calling him a scumbag is naive in the extreme

Out of interest where are you from Cruff and DeadCalm? I have a suspicion based solely on the quoted posts that one of you is from the south east and the other isn't.

Firstly, apologies to ContreLaMontre for the scumbag comment. It was over the top and uncalled for.

I am not from the south east.

cruff

gsk82 wrote:

Cruff wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I was offered and accepted a job and before I took it up I was approached by a more established company offering me a different and more interesting role which I took the day before I was supposed to start at the original offer. Should I have jeopardised my entire career prospects by being 'honourable' and stuck with the original offer? If you think I should have then you are foolish. As a professional cyclist's career is very short they have to maximise their opportunities available to them.

Which you were perfectly entitled to do. And I am entitled to think that you are a dishonourable scumbag for doing so. As I said before, I suspect that it is a generational thing. I was brought up to honour promises I made and to suffer with dignity the consequences of doing so. You may think I am foolish but that is how I was brought up.

And just to clarify that this is not an anti-Sky thing as the BS merchant would have you believe, I no longer consider myself to be a fan of Van Aert who I'd previously cheered on, albeit not so enthusiastically as I was starting to cheer for Sosa.

Incidentally, I have no personal experience of such situations in sport. However, I have had a moderate amount of experience from my time working as a lawyer in the music industry of bands reneging on deals with indie labels to sign with major labels. In almost every circumstance (one notable band excepted) it didn't work out as well for the band as they had hoped or expected.

Don't know how old you are, but considering I'm an old git, I'm guessing it's not much older than me. I think you have a very old fashioned view if the world of work. I'm an honourable man in everything else I do in life - but the days where companies showed ANY loyalty to you whatsoever are so far in the past they're sepia-toned. In this instance, he was perfectly within his rights to accept a better offer after verbally accepting a contract. Calling him a scumbag is naive in the extreme

Out of interest where are you from Cruff and DeadCalm? I have a suspicion based solely on the quoted posts that one of you is from the south east and the other isn't.

Lancashire via London

DeadCalm

DeadCalm wrote:

gsk82 wrote:

Out of interest where are you from Cruff and DeadCalm? I have a suspicion based solely on the quoted posts that one of you is from the south east and the other isn't.

Firstly, apologies to ContreLaMontre for the scumbag comment. It was over the top and uncalled for.

I am not from the south east.

And to restore some perspective, whilst Sosa has gone down in my estimation as a result of this, the only 'punishment' I have called for is his removal from my list of 'my men'. Whilst riders no doubt feel honoured to be included, I expect Sosa may well survive the disappointment at his removal.

timoid.

After the Aqua Blue fiasco, riders would be well advised to get what they can get, when they can get it. I don't blame Sosa one bit.

Sky may have trampled on some unwrittern rules though.

cruff

Timoid. wrote:

After the Aqua Blue fiasco, riders would be well advised to get what they can get, when they can get it. I don't blame Sosa one bit.

Sky may have trampled on some unwrittern rules though.

This

shirley_basso

Another page of the unwritten rules, torn up by team Sky.

RichN95.

Shirley Basso wrote:

Another page of the unwritten rules, torn up by team Sky.

How can they be on a page if they are unwritten?