Britain's response to Russia
Comments
-
Rolf F wrote:Fenix wrote:Do we really think the two men are still around to appear ?
It would be neat for Putin if they could never be found.
What do you think happened to them? Jettisoned into a Shark tank? Dumped in the back of a Zil limousine and crushed? This isn't a James Bond film!
No that'd be crazy. A bit like using poisoned perfume to kill traitors, or a poisoned umbrella to kill an annoying journalist or put Polonium in someone's cuppa. As if...0 -
Oh this is entirely credible.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45509697
Travelled thousands of miles to see a cathedral. Then somehow put off by the wintery conditions and went home. Obviously not used to snow in Russia.
I'm sure most of us here have gone on away with pals on similar trips...0 -
The spire of Salisbury Cathedral is quite interesting because it was an add-on that could well bring the whole lot crashing down. The foundations are inadequate and are dependent on the soil moisture content remaining constant. Some say they were built on elm logs which only rot if they start to dry out. I can imagine the FSB or Putin being concerned about this.0
-
The worrying part is that someone in the FSB either (A) thinks that's a really good excuse or (B) that the British are gullible enough to swallow that. I was coming up with more plausible excuses for being in places I shouldn't have been when i was eight years of age.All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0
-
bianchimoon wrote:The worrying part is that someone in the FSB either (A) thinks that's a really good excuse or (B) that the British are gullible enough to swallow that. I was coming up with more plausible excuses for being in places I shouldn't have been when i was eight years of age.
I think it is entirely plausible that two people would spend thousands of pounds travelling several thousand miles to spend a couple of hours admiring Salisbury.
But who in their right mind would believe that these intrepid explorers would risk using South Western Railways on a Sunday?? :shock:0 -
Surely the point is that they're just taking the proverbial just to emphasise how little we can do about it? Of course they could just say "yes, it was us, now what are you going to do about it?" but this way it fits in better with their overall strategy of creating division and confusion.bianchimoon wrote:The worrying part is that someone in the FSB either (A) thinks that's a really good excuse or (B) that the British are gullible enough to swallow that. I was coming up with more plausible excuses for being in places I shouldn't have been when i was eight years of age.0 -
bompington wrote:
Surely the point is that they're just taking the proverbial just to emphasise how little we can do about it? Of course they could just say "yes, it was us, now what are you going to do about it?" but this way it fits in better with their overall strategy of creating division and confusion.bianchimoon wrote:The worrying part is that someone in the FSB either (A) thinks that's a really good excuse or (B) that the British are gullible enough to swallow that. I was coming up with more plausible excuses for being in places I shouldn't have been when i was eight years of age.
exactly - they are going to great lengths to extract the maximum levels of urine0 -
0 -
Excuse me - I live in Salisbury and I don't want tangarine turd anywhere near my hometown - I'd have to evacuate in advance!!!!bianchimoon wrote:Pross wrote:My guess is the Russians now either claim a) these were the people who carried out the previous attack and somehow contaminated themselves or b) there's a leak from Porton Down. Unless these two have somehow crossed the Russians maybe they have just be poisoned to throw doubt on the original case (I like conspiracy theories!).
i think Trump needs to show solidarity with the UK and visit Salisbury when he's over here! or perhaps he'll just meet with Pukin and hand him Crimea.0 -
Where's Kenny Everett when you need him?
(Note for young people- 1980's joke). You-Tube clip probably out there.0 -
But Russian security operatives spraying lethal nerve agent round the town isn't a big problem for you?InconveniencedBadger wrote:
Excuse me - I live in Salisbury and I don't want tangarine turd anywhere near my hometown - I'd have to evacuate in advance!!!!bianchimoon wrote:Pross wrote:My guess is the Russians now either claim a) these were the people who carried out the previous attack and somehow contaminated themselves or b) there's a leak from Porton Down. Unless these two have somehow crossed the Russians maybe they have just be poisoned to throw doubt on the original case (I like conspiracy theories!).
i think Trump needs to show solidarity with the UK and visit Salisbury when he's over here! or perhaps he'll just meet with Pukin and hand him Crimea."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Fenix wrote:Rolf F wrote:Fenix wrote:Do we really think the two men are still around to appear ?
It would be neat for Putin if they could never be found.
What do you think happened to them? Jettisoned into a Shark tank? Dumped in the back of a Zil limousine and crushed? This isn't a James Bond film!
No that'd be crazy. A bit like using poisoned perfume to kill traitors, or a poisoned umbrella to kill an annoying journalist or put Polonium in someone's cuppa. As if...
I know it the whole thing is ridiculous but knocking off your own agents is not really that likely is it? It kind of makes them difficult to recruit (which is clearly already a problem given how incompetent the latest pair were). And of course we know that Putin likes showing off his murderers (eg Litvinenkos killers) to the media.Faster than a tent.......0 -
I read an article that it is possible that one of Putin's cronies may have arranged to have the 2 defectors killed as a sign of his loyalty to Putin, and that Putin may have known nothing about it until it went wrong.
Downside being is that now the perpetrators have been caught and Putin is taking all the flak and the crony is probably discussing is own defection to the UK.0 -
I don't believe for one second that anyone would take it on themselves to sanction an operation like this without authority from very top, they have a precedent in possible reaction and sanctions re Litvenyenko and Magnitsky attacks, so for some cronies to decide to do this to fawn to Putin seems highly unlikely.Shirley Basso wrote:I read an article that it is possible that one of Putin's cronies may have arranged to have the 2 defectors killed as a sign of his loyalty to Putin, and that Putin may have known nothing about it until it went wrong.
Downside being is that now the perpetrators have been caught and Putin is taking all the flak and the crony is probably discussing is own defection to the UK.
I suppose it's a possibility that some faction could be trying to do the opposite of what you suggest and to try and get the Putin regime into more trouble on the world stage in the hope of deposing him. But given Putin's smirking at the press conference the other day I doubt it.All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0 -
Or it's the GU is apparently an organization that believes in getting the results no matter what the cost. They're independent of other parts of the military / intelligence organizations in Russia according to an expert I heard interviewed on R4 recently. It's a mix of military special forces and traditional intelligence but most certainly more militaristic. The legendary spetnats (not right spelling) special forces unit is apparently part of the GU. muscle and intelligence. They even have their own, independent electronic intelligence unit in house. Think GCHQ unit. A very integrated unit with the skillset to run their own actions independently. Being like this with their armed forces element they are about chain of command. By this you can be confident that this mission would go through the kremlin senior figures. Putin or the tier below in power.
That is how I interpret what this expert was saying. True or not I don't know. But personally I do think it's a Russian op.
This RT interview is classic Putin regime and classic soviet propaganda and two fingered salute to UK but also a test the Americans out. Will they proceed with level two of the sanction regime passed after the original skripal situation?
I believe in sometime like October the second stage of the sanctions kick in if the Russians don't help the investigation. This is very severe and doesn't just target key military officials / officers. I heard on a radio current affairs that the Russians are concerned by that. But trump might not let it go off.0 -
It's a common tactic for dictators to foster a culture where their courtiers have to try to pick up hints from the boss and act on them. It keeps the courtiers on their toes and, of course, means that the capo can keep his hands clean if it backfires.Shirley Basso wrote:I read an article that it is possible that one of Putin's cronies may have arranged to have the 2 defectors killed as a sign of his loyalty to Putin, and that Putin may have known nothing about it until it went wrong.
Downside being is that now the perpetrators have been caught and Putin is taking all the flak and the crony is probably discussing is own defection to the UK.
So even if Putin didn't directly say "go to Salisbury, make sure and have a look at the famous and beautiful 123m high cathedral spire, then kill those traitors for me", it's still quite likely that it was his intention for it to happen, and it was implemented through and because of the culture he developed.0 -
RT editor hangs up on Newsnight.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-455173 ... -newsnight
have to say I'm with the RT editor on this one, the interviewer's face as she was talking to the 2 agents, she did appear to raise her eyebrows a few times during the interview. I think it went as far as you can in pushing 'the state' from a state sponsored station if you don't want have to wear an NBC suit from now on.All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0 -
An American analyst was giving the Russian/Chinese war games a serious slating on R4 the other day saying that this type of behavior is typical of a nation which is unable to meet developed countries on modern negotiating terms.
In spite of the huge cost to Russia and attempted display of strength, not only is it in fact a display of weakness, but also allows all the developed nations massive amounts of intelligence on how agile the Russian army is.0 -
I bet China only put a token strength force together for their part. More a diplomatic support than a serious show for them. China worries me more than Russia tbh because they're more strategic about things. For example it is partly cultural to think into the next generation. A rather basic example is how grandparents will give all their wealth to pay for extra tutoring for grandkids (then live with them as a dependent). This is so n their grandkids get a better life. Can you imagine the west or even Russia giving up their generation's nice retirement so the younger generation gets a better life when they're probably dead?
Short termism is the way of most of the world but China is about long term goals. Always has been. That's why IMHO they're the big players to watch out for.0 -
China is basically colonizing most of the developing world and is heavily colonizing the eastern Russian border.
I want to call Putin stupid, but he's simply out of date, hanging on through a indoctrinated population and heavily censored/baised media. A bit like the USA in some ways.0 -
Another thought about outdated countries, does anyone think India could become a power like China? It's got resources and population not far behind China I think so why is India not making steps towards becoming the economy their resources suggest their capable of?0
-
Tangled Metal wrote:Another thought about outdated countries, does anyone think India could become a power like China? It's got resources and population not far behind China I think so why is India not making steps towards becoming the economy their resources suggest their capable of?
Internal issues, mostly.
Without sounding too much like a colonialist windbag, the British and their investment in infrastructure and bureaucracy did a huge amount for India's position on the world scene and they have somewhat screwed themselves over since gaining independence. Corruption, cronyism, class war and conservative policies are a massive issue for the country.
But yes, it definitely should become global powerhouse like China. A lot of emerging market equities funds are invested there as far as I understand for exactly that reason.0 -
bompington wrote:
It's a common tactic for dictators to foster a culture where their courtiers have to try to pick up hints from the boss and act on them. It keeps the courtiers on their toes and, of course, means that the capo can keep his hands clean if it backfires.Shirley Basso wrote:I read an article that it is possible that one of Putin's cronies may have arranged to have the 2 defectors killed as a sign of his loyalty to Putin, and that Putin may have known nothing about it until it went wrong.
Downside being is that now the perpetrators have been caught and Putin is taking all the flak and the crony is probably discussing is own defection to the UK.
So even if Putin didn't directly say "go to Salisbury, make sure and have a look at the famous and beautiful 123m high cathedral spire, then kill those traitors for me", it's still quite likely that it was his intention for it to happen, and it was implemented through and because of the culture he developed.
It was probably hinted to them to carry out their Murder In The Cathedral.0 -
How long will they carry on having police incidents in Salisbury every time someone falls ill in a restaurant there?0
-
I don't know, let's wait and see.Pross wrote:How long will they carry on having police incidents in Salisbury every time someone falls ill in a restaurant there?
Seriously though, if there's a case of people getting suddenly ill without warning in any location, don't you think it warrants looking into? I'm certain there's public health incidents in other parts of the country too. It's just Salisbury gets special media attention I guess.0 -
I get the distinct impression that the major news outlets were told from on high to drop the headlines about yesterday's story.
It disappeared down the news items very quickly - (quite rightly in terms of substance but, if I am correct about news manipulation, worries me)0 -
could it be because there was no story!Mad_Malx wrote:I get the distinct impression that the major news outlets were told from on high to drop the headlines about yesterday's story.
It disappeared down the news items very quickly - (quite rightly in terms of substance but, if I am correct about news manipulation, worries me)All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0 -
^yeh, maybe I need a new tinfoil hat.0
-
Tangled Metal wrote:
I don't know, let's wait and see.Pross wrote:How long will they carry on having police incidents in Salisbury every time someone falls ill in a restaurant there?
Seriously though, if there's a case of people getting suddenly ill without warning in any location, don't you think it warrants looking into? I'm certain there's public health incidents in other parts of the country too. It's just Salisbury gets special media attention I guess.
I doubt they cordon off the area and send people in wearing hazmat suits every time someone eats a dodgy oyster or kebab, there's some back street takeaway areas they would be permanently sealed off if they did.0 -
Pross wrote:How long will they carry on having police incidents in Salisbury every time someone falls ill in a restaurant there?
At the moment, it looks to be for the forseeable future.
However, living in the town, I can say that it is perfectly safe to come here and that most of the time when walking around, you'd be unaware that this had even happened (just don't pick any unknown objects off the streets as this is how somebody else became affected). At the moment, I think that only the Zizzi restaurant is still out of bounds - the area where the Skripals became unconscious has been decontaminated.
Also, police incidents like the one yesterday have happened maybe twice over 6 months.0
