Britain's response to Russia

cycleclinic

Oddly the French admiral in Marseille after the French surrender in wwII would have scuttled his fleet or turned it over to the royal navy. We got nervous and blew it up. Understandings our position was precarious to say the least

BelgianBeerGeek

thecycleclinic wrote:

Given Russia's economy is the size if Italy's and there defence budget one tenth of nato quite how we let Russia weld the power of displays I don't know.

5 EU countries including France (which given they are the other major military power in Europe is important) are going to expel diplomats is the start. Others may follow. Next all nato countries could pull out of the world cup and what be another snub. Russia only has the power it does because collectively the western nations let them. If there is a bully in the room you confront them. If you shy away hoping they reform they never do. It is the latter we have been doing for nearly 30 years. We learn slowly.

The odd thing is Putin seemed to have saved may. She gon'se from being hapless to competant.

You are going to have explain that one for me.

orraloon

thecycleclinic wrote:

Next all nato countries could pull out of the world cup and what be another snub.

Political interference in the kickball showpiece Finals will not go well with FIFA. Should Ingerlaand not go, highly unlikely though that may be, expect suspension from future competitions.

Da Gumment of the day tried to have British athletes boycott the Moscow Olympics 1980 at time of Afghanistan part n+1. Politicos trying to conflate military / espionage / state entity activity with popular culture, whodathunk it? Motor-mouthed but mini-brained de Pfeffel's comparison with 1936 Berlin is typical press-button opportunism. Trust us, there are bad scary monsters out there, give us more power, we have our, oops sorry your interests at heart.

tangled_metal

Actually I wonder about that. NATO countries withdrawing en masse from world Cup would likely not result in any fifa reprisals. Among the NATO countries are significant footballing nations and quite possibly enough of a majority in the UEFA setup to create conflict between them and fifa. I don't really know how badly fifa wants to do that? As much as fifa relies on the world Cup finals to fund their programs I doubt one without a large swathe of wealthy European sides and fans I doubt you'd get the revenue they need from it.

However it's a pretty weak response. I mean the west can't do anything politically, diplomatically and economically so they use sport to try and make the statement and effect Russia. Weak isn't the word.

pblakeney

orraloon wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

Next all nato countries could pull out of the world cup and what be another snub.

Political interference in the kickball showpiece Finals will not go well with FIFA. Should Ingerlaand not go, highly unlikely though that may be, expect suspension from future competitions.

Da Gumment of the day tried to have British athletes boycott the Moscow Olympics 1980 at time of Afghanistan part n+1. Politicos trying to conflate military / espionage / state entity activity with popular culture, whodathunk it? Motor-mouthed but mini-brained de Pfeffel's comparison with 1936 Berlin is typical press-button opportunism. Trust us, there are bad scary monsters out there, give us more power, we have our, oops sorry your interests at heart.

Could someone please explain to Boris that the Russians boycotted the 1936 olympics.
Not only that, but the F.O. ordered the England team to perform the Nazi salute.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3128202.stm

awavey

well Im sure the dutch in Amsterdam are loving the ingerland fans and would probably quite happily let the Russians take care of them.

but point of order on Boris and this Hitler/Nazi claim thing.

its was Labour MP Ian Austin in the foreign affairs committee meeting who called for England to pull out of the World Cup altogether and said “Putin is going to use it in the way Hitler used the 1936 Olympics.

and Boris replied: “I think that your characterisation of what is going to happen in Moscow, the World Cup, in all the venues – yes, I think the comparison with 1936 is certainly right. It is an emetic prospect of Putin glorying in this sporting event.”

how has Boris agreeing to a characterisation put forward to him, turned into "Boris labels Ruskies Nazis" ? should he have said no I totally disagree Putin is interested only in using big international sport occasions as a metaphor to bring the nations of the world together for world peace.

mrfpb

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

Given Russia's economy is the size if Italy's and there defence budget one tenth of nato quite how we let Russia weld the power of displays I don't know.

5 EU countries including France (which given they are the other major military power in Europe is important) are going to expel diplomats is the start. Others may follow. Next all nato countries could pull out of the world cup and what be another snub. Russia only has the power it does because collectively the western nations let them. If there is a bully in the room you confront them. If you shy away hoping they reform they never do. It is the latter we have been doing for nearly 30 years. We learn slowly.

The odd thing is Putin seemed to have saved may. She gon'se from being hapless to competant.

You are going to have explain that one for me.

For the first time as PM May has gone to an EU summit and very quickly got the other 27 to accept and copy the UK foreign policy agenda, which is hostile to Russia. It's a big deal and makes her look strong. Also reports say that Macron and Merkel enthusiastically quashed any dissent from pro Russia nations (Though I don't know who they are). May effectively was the grown up in the room for that session.

cycleclinic

Also ramping up to sporting sanctions is the next step after expelling diplomats. Then you do other things in concert with allies. It takes time and it should not happen all at once.

also who gives a damm about FIFA. politics and sport are bed fellows. Does anyone think Putin's Russia is hosting the world cup for the love of sport. It is poltics a show of state power like the romans putting on games at the coleseum.

TheBigBean

Lots of Russian diplomats being asked to leave.

imposter2.0

thecycleclinic wrote:

Does anyone think Putin's Russia is hosting the world cup for the love of sport. It is poltics a show of state power like the romans putting on games at the coleseum.

To be fair, just about every country that hosts the olympics or world cup does it for the same/similar reasons - not simply because they 'love sport'....

slowmart

Apparantly one of the conditions FIFA lays down to the host nation is that any income for FIFA is excluded from tax within the tax jurisdiction of the host nation.

Only despots and nut jobs want to host the World Cup. I hear Boris is already sending Gove as FIFA fluffer in chief

cycleclinic

Well lots of nations are expelling russian diplomats. Looks like Britain still has some influence and may might actually good at this diplomacy lark. Even Italy is expelling. Canada and Ukraine too along with alot if EU nations. Even the Germans are kicking 4 out.

Stevo_666

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well lots of nations are expelling russian diplomats. Looks like Britain still has some influence and may might actually good at this diplomacy lark. Even Italy is expelling. Canada and Ukraine too along with slot if EU nations. Even the Germans are kicking 4 out.

I think we do.

Also relevant is the point that it's pretty obvious that the Russians were behind it. It's a bit like finding a dead bird in the house and the cat saying 'Wasn't me - you can't prove it'.

rick_chasey

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well lots of nations are expelling russian diplomats. Looks like Britain still has some influence and may might actually good at this diplomacy lark. Even Italy is expelling. Canada and Ukraine too along with slot if EU nations. Even the Germans are kicking 4 out.

Russia is a more immediate problem for a lot nations on the continent than it is for the UK.

Russia also blew up a plane of dutch citizens not so long ago and denied it.

There's a lot of animosity there. Enough that the UK doesn't really need to spend much political capital to look for friends regarding Russia.

Did you not hear Dalia Grybauskaitė on the topic?

cycleclinic

After the shooting down if a Dutch plane what did we all actually do. Not alot. That was an act of war we should have been alot tougher over that and the invasion of Ukraine.

Our cat does not even try denying it him. He does not care.

Who's Dalia?

Matthewfalle

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well lots of nations are expelling russian diplomats. Looks like Britain still has some influence and may might actually good at this diplomacy lark. Even Italy is expelling. Canada and Ukraine too along with alot if EU nations. Even the Germans are kicking 4 out.

No, they do not have any influence. Zero, zip, nada, rien.

And mostly britains diplomats are running around sorting out the random messes your bojo is making.

bompington

Matthewfalle wrote:

No, they do not have any influence. Zero, zip, nada, rien.

You know: the hyperbole, the constant doing-down of everything British, the argumentativeness, the trolling - does that remind us of anything, товарищи?

Matthewfalle

bompington wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

No, they do not have any influence. Zero, zip, nada, rien.

You know: the hyperbole, the constant doing-down of everything British, the argumentativeness, the trolling - does that remind us of anything, товарищи?

- Das ist gut, ja?

Matthewfalle

Matthewfalle wrote:

bompington wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

No, they do not have any influence. Zero, zip, nada, rien.

You know: the hyperbole, the constant doing-down of everything British, the argumentativeness, the trolling - does that remind us of anything, товарищи?

- Das ist gut, ja?

Or is it just reality biting?

laurentian

Something is puzzling me about this episode.

If two British people were killed on Russian soil, regardless of method or who was accused, wouldn't Britian want to send representatives of our police over to investigate? Has Russia asked to do this? If not, why not?

Stevo_666

laurentian wrote:

Something is puzzling me about this episode.

If two British people were killed on Russian soil, regardless of method or who was accused, wouldn't Britian want to send representatives of our police over to investigate? Has Russia asked to do this? If not, why not?

Fair point. Probably no point in them investigating what they already know the answer to?

BelgianBeerGeek

laurentian wrote:

Something is puzzling me about this episode.

If two British people were killed on Russian soil, regardless of method or who was accused, wouldn't Britian want to send representatives of our police over to investigate? Has Russia asked to do this? If not, why not?

Plenty of Brits get killed all around the world every year. The police don't hop on a plane and investigate those.

veronese68

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

laurentian wrote:

Something is puzzling me about this episode.

If two British people were killed on Russian soil, regardless of method or who was accused, wouldn't Britian want to send representatives of our police over to investigate? Has Russia asked to do this? If not, why not?

Plenty of Brits get killed all around the world every year. The police don't hop on a plane and investigate those.

Unless they don't know for certain if she's dead yet and the negligent* parents get the Daily Mail on side. Then the police will still be working on it 10 years later.

*Negligent at best that is.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

laurentian wrote:

Something is puzzling me about this episode.

If two British people were killed on Russian soil, regardless of method or who was accused, wouldn't Britian want to send representatives of our police over to investigate? Has Russia asked to do this? If not, why not?

Fair point. Probably no point in them investigating what they already know the answer to?

No this doesn't happen.

And when the state in question is the suspect, you wouldn't want them to be poking around the evidence anyway.

rjsterry

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

laurentian wrote:

Something is puzzling me about this episode.

If two British people were killed on Russian soil, regardless of method or who was accused, wouldn't Britian want to send representatives of our police over to investigate? Has Russia asked to do this? If not, why not?

Plenty of Brits get killed all around the world every year. The police don't hop on a plane and investigate those.

They do in some circumstances.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

laurentian wrote:

Something is puzzling me about this episode.

If two British people were killed on Russian soil, regardless of method or who was accused, wouldn't Britian want to send representatives of our police over to investigate? Has Russia asked to do this? If not, why not?

Plenty of Brits get killed all around the world every year. The police don't hop on a plane and investigate those.

They do in some circumstances.

Not in any proper capacity; they don't have jurisdiction.

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

laurentian wrote:

Something is puzzling me about this episode.

If two British people were killed on Russian soil, regardless of method or who was accused, wouldn't Britian want to send representatives of our police over to investigate? Has Russia asked to do this? If not, why not?

Plenty of Brits get killed all around the world every year. The police don't hop on a plane and investigate those.

They do in some circumstances.

Not in any proper capacity; they don't have jurisdiction.

I was thinking of examples where they have cooperated with local police. Not a likely scenario in this case.

TheBigBean

Many years ago I remember a couple of police officers coming out to a ski resort to investigate some death or other of a Brit, so it does happen. Can't remember the circumstances, I just remember thinking that they had done well to get on the trip. I think it might have related to a coroner's report.

kingstongraham

Don't think it happened when the guy got robbed in Moscow and froze to death.

rick_chasey

Pointless discussion. Why would you invite represnetatives of the organisation suspected of ordering and carrying out the murder?

Are we gonna start inviting rival gang members to investigate gangland murders now?

This is classic Russian deflection. They did the same when the blew up a full plane load of innocent people. Don't be a mug.