Veganism

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  • Thick Mike
    Thick Mike Posts: 337
    This keeps coming to mind...

    http://youtu.be/SFCAcQxmYDI

    Long and short, I am vegetarian and I have been for over 30 years. Not a perfect one, I ate a scotch egg in 1990 (through ignorance), and soup containing sausage in 2015 (through poor linguistic skills in Italy). I don’t eat fish, but do wear leather shoes. There are certain hypocrisies involved in my choices if you want to get all philosophical about it, but meh...they are my decisions, so I make the rules.

    People seem to be getting all riled up as though there is some sort of vegan gestapo about to subject everyone to Sharia Law (hope I mixed enough metaphors there).People are free to eat, or not eat whatever they want. It’s not a threat to anyone’s way of life.

    I mentioned it earlier, but the thing that caused the offence was the advertising industry, not vegans.

    It’s like drivers versus cyclists in here! :roll:
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,996
    .they are my decisions, so I make the rules.

    This! Very much this and then, this again.
  • angry_bird
    angry_bird Posts: 3,787
    I've never been veggie. Went vegan for a while about 3-4 months when I was living with a pair of vegans as it was easy and they helped me do it and made sure I was eating right, and then reverted back to my old ways because I missed creme eggs. This was a couple of years ago, now I've eaten a lifetime quota of creme eggs I'm over them.

    Obviously I don't mind what people eat, vegans I totally get but I do struggle to understand some veggies a bit, particularly those who do it for ethical or welfare grounds. I'd much rather be a lamb than a dairy cow any day of the week.

    Unlike the majority of people here I'd imagine, I've spent a hell of a lot of time out on all sorts of farms as well as in slaughterhouses. I've seen the videos PETA post up of abuse in slaughter houses but can honestly say I've never experienced it or seen anything that comes near to it myself. Obviously it happens, there's evidence, but it does appear to be incredibly rare thankfully.

    From everything I've seen and done I'm comfortable with myself eating some meat, mainly lamb and beef. I've eaten animals that I've seen slaughtered, even done it myself in the past. Don't eat chicken or pork as a general rule unless I know where it's come from, which is very rare, mostly as I'm not a fan of the farming methods. Lamb and a certain proportion of beef farming though (mostly suckler) on balance I'm ok, maybe even happy with. I've contemplated going back to being a vegan, but I'd struggle to stick to it devoutly without it causing issues with my work, and on balance I think I can do more good than harm with the work I do so I've just greatly reduced my consumption of animal products.

    I don't have much dairy though, mostly limited to milk in tea if someone makes me a cup or if it's in food that someone makes for me or milk chocolate sometimes, that's about it.I don't like the diary industry really, although it's about maximising profits, a lot of effort is made to maintain high welfare standards by more and more farmers it seems, but even so being a dairy cow is not a life I'd like to live. Neither would I like to be a hen laying eggs.

    At the moment the bigger concerns I have with animal welfare are mostly about pets, the farming sector is regulated and things are changing for the better. With pets it's going the other way, I'm sick to death of seeing cats and dogs living drawn out lives just to satisfy the emotional needs of their owner when they'd be better off dead. Death isn't a welfare issue, but an animal suffering chronically where adequate management of its condition isn't possible is. I'm equally fed up with the number of brachycephalic puppies I've seen pop up in the run up to Christmas.

    Anyway, I digress, reading yesterday I noticed an article about a recent farming conference, and following a presentation and discussion, when polled about 100 our of the 300 or so there thought a we'd have a plant-based society by the end of the century. It's a nice thought, but I think some areas of the livestock will still prevail, possibly egg production but hopefully in a different way to what we're seeing, and likely sheep farming too.
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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    Angry Bird wrote:

    At the moment the bigger concerns I have with animal welfare are mostly about pets, the farming sector is regulated and things are changing for the better. With pets it's going the other way, I'm sick to death of seeing cats and dogs living drawn out lives just to satisfy the emotional needs of their owner when they'd be better off dead. Death isn't a welfare issue, but an animal suffering chronically where adequate management of its condition isn't possible is. I'm equally fed up with the number of brachycephalic puppies I've seen pop up in the run up to Christmas.

    I wholeheartedly concur. And would add to your list Labradors so obese they can barely walk. It's not because "he loves his treats", he can't open the f***ing packet himself.
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  • mouth
    mouth Posts: 1,195
    Angry Bird wrote:
    I'm equally fed up with the number of brachycephalic puppies I've seen pop up in the run up to Christmas.

    About this time last year we seriously started looking for a dog - wanted one for years and years but the time was never right - and I had my heart set on a little Frenchie, until I looked into them and their breed. I decided I could never have one because of the suffering it'd do. Ended up with a labradoodle instead, and she's brilliant.

    Yes, I'd love to see the pet industry regulated, but where do you draw the line before forcing certain aspects of the industry even more underground? At the moment we rely on breeders/sellers being scrupulous enough to not sell to an idiot. My breeder went to great lengths to ensure we were suitable for one of his pups, and I know several other people who went through the same experience with him, as well as him turning people away. On the other hand the last dog my mother in law bought, the guy wanted a Paypal deposit over the and she was to collect and pay balance at 8 weeks. Why she went through with it I'll never know.
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  • fat daddy
    fat daddy Posts: 2,605
    trek_dan wrote:
    Pigs do become attached to humans the same way dogs do.

    not on farms they dont .... do you honestly think farmers have to go outside everyday and pet 300 pigs and say "coochi coochi coo" to the piggies :roll:

    yes a pig, a baby lamb, a chicken will love you and nuzzle you if you bring it up as a pet .... we are not eating pets though.

    Its mixed messages, on one hand its cruel to trat the animals the way we do ... yet for some reason they trust and love us ???

    which one is it ?

    Or is Propagana telling us we love and pet them until they trust us .. then we torture and kill them ?

    Ever been on a farm .. its rather clinical
  • trek_dan
    trek_dan Posts: 1,366
    fat daddy wrote:
    trek_dan wrote:
    Pigs do become attached to humans the same way dogs do.

    not on farms they dont .... do you honestly think farmers have to go outside everyday and pet 300 pigs and say "coochi coochi coo" to the piggies :roll:

    yes a pig, a baby lamb, a chicken will love you and nuzzle you if you bring it up as a pet .... we are not eating pets though.

    Its mixed messages, on one hand its cruel to trat the animals the way we do ... yet for some reason they trust and love us ???

    which one is it ?

    Or is Propagana telling us we love and pet them until they trust us .. then we torture and kill them ?

    Ever been on a farm .. its rather clinical

    Going back to your argument about people you could say exactly the same thing. If you raise people in a certain way the don't become attached to other people, is killing and eating them ok? How about killing and eating your Romanian lettuce farming slave labourers?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    I think we've done anthropomorphism already: animals aren't people.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
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    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • fat daddy
    fat daddy Posts: 2,605
    trek_dan wrote:
    If you raise people in a certain way the don't become attached to other people, is killing and eating them ok? How about killing and eating your Romanian lettuce farming slave labourers?

    I would eat life sentence criminals ... probably would rath better regulation on the quality of meat as I am sure some drugs stay in tissue longer than I would be happy eating

    again, it comes down to what several people have said there is no right and wrong no hard rules, its opinions and my decisions to make.

    And I firmly believe that the advertising is propaganda sensationalist bolox that I will happily steer my family away from

    you are more than welcome to buy in to it though
  • joenobody
    joenobody Posts: 563
    rjsterry wrote:
    JoeNobody wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    You're still taking the view that it's demonstrably wrong to kill animals for food.
    Of course. If I didn't believe that I wouldn't be vegan.
    It's not a question of necessity, at least for your average Briton.
    Exactly, so why do it?
    If you don't hold that belief, why not?
    I don't understand your question. Or rather, I understand the question, but not why you're asking it. I do hold that belief, as I posted...
    Buying out an entire station, I think they'd be disappointed with just one convert.
    And I think you'd be genuinely surprised. I see it all the time in vegan groups on FB - "If we can only change one person's mind it's worth it". Of course, not specifically to advertising, but to activism in general.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    I mean, it's not like humans are the only species who kill animals for food.
    _
  • joenobody
    joenobody Posts: 563
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    I mean, it's not like humans are the only species who kill animals for food.
    No, but we are the only species to invest (time, money, resources) in breeding billions of animals a year to be killed for food when we largely no longer need to.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    I mean, it's not like humans are the only species who kill animals for food.
    This is how it works:
    - animals are just the same as humans so we shouldn't kill them
    - humans are not the same as animals so we shouldn't kill them
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    JoeNobody wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    I mean, it's not like humans are the only species who kill animals for food.
    No, but we are the only species to invest (time, money, resources) in breeding billions of animals a year to be killed for food when we largely no longer need to.

    Haha, what money do animals use?
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    9659128f5c383288dc50cfa5fb921f01.jpg

    Is there an otter bank?
    _
  • joenobody
    joenobody Posts: 563
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Haha, what money do animals use?
    Yes, very good. I'm sure you appreciate the point I'm making though.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    JoeNobody wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Haha, what money do animals use?
    Yes, very good. I'm sure you appreciate the point I'm making though.

    It's a function of capability rather than anything else.

    If lions could, I'm sure they would.

    My parent's cat doesn't need to kill. It has all the food it could want. If anything, the cat needs to eat less.

    Yet he still brings in dead birds and eats mice (but not their kidneys).
    _
  • joenobody
    joenobody Posts: 563
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    It's a function of capability rather than anything else.

    If lions could, I'm sure they would.

    My parent's cat doesn't need to kill. It has all the food it could want. If anything, the cat needs to eat less.

    Yet he still brings in dead birds and eats mice (but not their kidneys).
    Of course it's difficult to say what animals would do, given the chance. You do hear of wild animals dragging carcases up trees to save for later, but it is a necessity for them to hunt in order to eat, and that behaviour suggests they'd appreciate more readily available sources of food. I'd suggest that your parents' cat's behaviour is because it's part of their nature, still, to hunt. That it doesn't only do that is perhaps an indication of the evolution of the domesticated cat. One day we might see that they stop hunting completely. In some ways you can see human evolution in that - we used to have to hunt/gather food, now we farm it. But that leaves the question if we're intelligent enough to stop doing things we no longer need to do, why are we still breeding and killing animals for food? I'm not in anyway suggesting that vegans are more more intelligent or evolved than non-vegans, in case it comes across like that.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    JoeNobody wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    It's a function of capability rather than anything else.

    If lions could, I'm sure they would.

    My parent's cat doesn't need to kill. It has all the food it could want. If anything, the cat needs to eat less.

    Yet he still brings in dead birds and eats mice (but not their kidneys).
    Of course it's difficult to say what animals would do, given the chance. You do hear of wild animals dragging carcases up trees to save for later, but it is a necessity for them to hunt in order to eat, and that behaviour suggests they'd appreciate more readily available sources of foodI'd suggest that your parents' cat's behaviour is because it's part of their nature, still, to hunt. That it doesn't only do that is perhaps an indication of the evolution of the domesticated cat. One day we might see that they stop hunting completely. In some ways you can see human evolution in that - we used to have to hunt/gather food, now we farm it. But that leaves the question if we're intelligent enough to stop doing things we no longer need to do, why are we still breeding and killing animals for food? I'm not in anyway suggesting that vegans are more more intelligent or evolved than non-vegans, in case it comes across like that.

    Because it's in our nature to want to eat meat.
    _
  • drlodge
    drlodge Posts: 4,826
    I think its much better to rear animals for food (on the condition they have a good quality of life and are humanely killed) than not to raise them at all.
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  • joenobody
    joenobody Posts: 563
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Because it's in our nature to want to eat meat.
    Without a doubt, but the vegan view is that we should rise above our base desires in the name of compassion for animals. As I keep asking, why do it when we no longer need to? Because we want to seems like a lame answer.
  • joenobody
    joenobody Posts: 563
    drlodge wrote:
    I think its much better to rear animals for food (on the condition they have a good quality of life and are humanely killed) than not to raise them at all.
    Why? What problem does not raising them cause?
  • haydenm
    haydenm Posts: 2,997
    JoeNobody wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Because it's in our nature to want to eat meat.
    Without a doubt, but the vegan view is that we should rise above our base desires in the name of compassion for animals. As I keep asking, why do it when we no longer need to? Because we want to seems like a lame answer.

    Well, because we want to mainly. It doesn't seem like a lame answer to people who aren't vegans or they would be vegans surely?

    My main issue is animal welfare, and that is the government's job to police. I want to keep eating responsibly produced meat
  • trek_dan
    trek_dan Posts: 1,366
    Thick Mike wrote:
    It’s like drivers versus cyclists in here! :roll:
    Yep. Already said this. And people should see the connection between the two..
  • joenobody
    joenobody Posts: 563
    HaydenM wrote:
    Well, because we want to mainly. It doesn't seem like a lame answer to people who aren't vegans or they would be vegans surely?
    I'm not sure. Anecdotally I've of heard of people saying pretty much "I know it's lame, but I don't really care. I like meat too much".

    One of the pro-vegan arguments is that we already have laws that make it illegal to kills animals, no matter how it's done, so why is it ok in certain contexts. If I killed my dog, or a random cow in a field, I'd be in big trouble. Even if I stunned it first. And it wouldn't matter whether it was my intention to eat the animal afterwards. Yet, put the right type of animal in an abattoir and it's a different story.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    JoeNobody wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Because it's in our nature to want to eat meat.
    Without a doubt, but the vegan view is that we should rise above our base desires in the name of compassion for animals. As I keep asking, why do it when we no longer need to? Because we want to seems like a lame answer.
    Being blunt, "eating animals is wrong because I believe it is" is a bit thin, too. You and other vegans think it's incompatible with compassion for animals; I and others think that the two are not incompatible.

    If we are going to start talking about necessity, eating animals is just one of many many things we could survive without. This is no different from other animals. Animals that have evolved to run fast as a defence strategy, also appear to enjoy running for the sake of it. For example, wild hamsters in their natural environment will still use a hamster wheel left for them. Cats appear to enjoy hunting for the sake of it.
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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    JoeNobody wrote:
    HaydenM wrote:
    Well, because we want to mainly. It doesn't seem like a lame answer to people who aren't vegans or they would be vegans surely?
    I'm not sure. Anecdotally I've of heard of people saying pretty much "I know it's lame, but I don't really care. I like meat too much".

    One of the pro-vegan arguments is that we already have laws that make it illegal to kills animals, no matter how it's done, so why is it ok in certain contexts. If I killed my dog, or a random cow in a field, I'd be in big trouble. Even if I stunned it first. And it wouldn't matter whether it was my intention to eat the animal afterwards. Yet, put the right type of animal in an abattoir and it's a different story.

    You sure about that? Excluding damage to property -if it's not your animal - it seems like these are the regulations you need to follow.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/collectio ... of-killing
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
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  • haydenm
    haydenm Posts: 2,997
    JoeNobody wrote:
    HaydenM wrote:
    Well, because we want to mainly. It doesn't seem like a lame answer to people who aren't vegans or they would be vegans surely?
    I'm not sure. Anecdotally I've of heard of people saying pretty much "I know it's lame, but I don't really care. I like meat too much".

    One of the pro-vegan arguments is that we already have laws that make it illegal to kills animals, no matter how it's done, so why is it ok in certain contexts. If I killed my dog, or a random cow in a field, I'd be in big trouble. Even if I stunned it first. And it wouldn't matter whether it was my intention to eat the animal afterwards. Yet, put the right type of animal in an abattoir and it's a different story.

    I'd like to think everyone who eats meat understands the process and tries to buy responsibly but that definitely isn't the case. Again, I'd say the government have a responsibility to police animal welfare in the event of people not caring.

    I was of the understanding the laws to stop you killing animals are to do with food chain protection and animal welfare rather than an inherent 'animal rights' type law like we have for humans. You can kill most things provided you have permission from the landowner, it's not an EU protected species and it is done humanely. Farm animal legislation has evolved separately to make people use the system for human consumption rather than inhumanely slaughtering them
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    rjsterry wrote:
    JoeNobody wrote:
    HaydenM wrote:
    Well, because we want to mainly. It doesn't seem like a lame answer to people who aren't vegans or they would be vegans surely?
    I'm not sure. Anecdotally I've of heard of people saying pretty much "I know it's lame, but I don't really care. I like meat too much".

    One of the pro-vegan arguments is that we already have laws that make it illegal to kills animals, no matter how it's done, so why is it ok in certain contexts. If I killed my dog, or a random cow in a field, I'd be in big trouble. Even if I stunned it first. And it wouldn't matter whether it was my intention to eat the animal afterwards. Yet, put the right type of animal in an abattoir and it's a different story.

    You sure about that? Excluding damage to property -if it's not your animal - it seems like these are the regulations you need to follow.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/collectio ... of-killing

    More general coverage here.

    http://www.animal-law.co.uk/the-law.html
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    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • joenobody
    joenobody Posts: 563
    rjsterry wrote:
    More general coverage here.

    http://www.animal-law.co.uk/the-law.html
    Ok, so this is what I was getting at:
    The Animal Welfare Act 2006: Prevention of harm, section 4 - Unecessary suffering wrote:
      (2) A person commits an offence if—
      (a) he is responsible for an animal, (b) an act, or failure to act, of another person causes the animal to suffer, (c) he permitted that to happen or failed to take such steps (whether by way of supervising the other person or otherwise) as were reasonable in all the circumstances to prevent that happening, and (d) the suffering is unnecessary.
    Let's take my dog as the example. I'd probably get away with it if no-one found out about it, but if I killed (stunned and slit the throat of) my otherwise healthy dog and someone reported me for it, this looks like a relevant piece of legislation. I might still get away with it, but I'd probably have to prove that there was no suffering, or that the suffering was necessary. The vegan view is that killing an animal is causing it to suffer, and doing so for food is unnecessary suffering. It follows logically from that belief that it ought to apply to all animals. Of course, it doesn't follow logically if you don't hold that view.

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