Veganism

joenobody · January 2018

TheBigBean wrote:

Any largish herbivore. Any exception to that?

Elephant? Gorilla? Or are they too large? Orangutan? Or are they out because they also eat small insects?

joenobody · January 2018

fat daddy wrote:

I leave out the emotion, I dont hide the facts, she knows animals die so we can eat them, she knows we dont buy the cheap chicken and eggs because they abuse the animals

So she knows how they die? Or just that they do die? Abuse happens in abattoirs regardless of how the animals have been raised, and despite laws to prevent it. And that's leaving aside the view that it's abuse to breed and raise animal for the sole purpose of feeding and clothing us, particularly when it's no longer necessary.

your propaganda though does leave out the facts and only uses emotion to try to get its point across .... makes you wonder why it cant just use the facts doesnt it ??

Which facts does it leave out?

fat daddy · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

Again I'll ask my question, are you suggesting that only strong people will be able to resist the desire to stop unnecessarily killing animals

not only strong people .. fat people can resist it as well

seriously though ... mostly yes ... the whole point of Propaganda is to emotionally sell your idea, really ? ... baby animals "trust" us ???

rick_chasey · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Any largish herbivore. Any exception to that?

Elephant? Gorilla? Or are they too large? Orangutan? Or are they out because they also eat small insects?

If it tastes nice & it’s done sustainably sure.

I reckon neither criterion are met in that instance.

That’s basically the test.

I can’t say I sit here and always eat ethically because of ethics, but I usually do out of improved quality of the produce.

I mean, I eat foie gras in France for example, and plenty here have, I bet.

TheBigBean · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Any largish herbivore. Any exception to that?

Elephant? Gorilla? Or are they too large? Orangutan? Or are they out because they also eat small insects?

Happy to eat them except they are protected and in short supply, so that is a slightly different matter. I have eaten zebra. The only real exception that I can think of in some countries is horse, but then I have also eaten horse, and so too have a lot of ready meal fans.

I don't really see much inconsistency in meat eating. I'm not a fan of small animals because there are too many bones and I'm lazy.

TheBigBean · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

You can have a balanced diet, but it is harder to achieve it. In the same way, you can have extremely tasty vegan food, but it is also harder to achieve it. I would never criticise your choice unless it had an impact on me.

Have you actually tried it? It's not really all that much harder. Certainly I've found it easier than I thought I would. The hardest part is looking out for animal products in food you wouldn't expect to find them. Like milk in salt & vinegar crisps!! Why is that necessary?

To my mind you have contradicted yourself - it is not that hard, but you check the ingredients of everything you eat.

Also, I have had some amazing vegan meals and some thoroughly disappointing ones. It seems far harder, even for professionals, to cook the former than the latter for vegan food.

surrey_commuter · January 2018

Chris Bass wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

bompington wrote:

It's absolutely not fair to compare meat-eaters to Hitler. After all, he was a vegetarian, therefore morally superior to carnivores.

No he wasn't

Oh yes he was...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler_and_vegetarianism

oh no he wasn't
https://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/show/myth_check_was_hitler_a_vegetarian

I know it is unlike the Nazis to use false propaganda to fit their agenda but it seems like they may have don that in this case!

that article says "maybe"

Anyway throw in Stalin and Pol Pot and there is definitely a theme with vegetarians and mass murder

joenobody · January 2018

Rick Chasey wrote:

If it tastes nice & it’s done sustainably sure.

I reckon neither criterion are met in that instance.

TheBigBean wrote:

Happy to eat them except they are protected and in short supply, so that is a slightly different matter.

But there's more to it than that, surely. If the market was there then there'd be breeding programs to support the market.

timothyw · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

By definition, veganism is limiting.

By definition, veganism isn't balanced, since there's a whole food group you don't eat.

It's a whole food group, but it's a pretty small number of species compared with the number of plant based foods there are. Sure, on a technical point, vegetables only is a smaller list than vegetables + animals, but it's not really a practical restriction.

Precisely. And eating a balance of all food groups is not the same as eating a balanced diet. I've just replaced the meat, etc with plant-based food sources that provide the same nutrients. Meat eaters are generally self-limiting too though, as not all animals are considered to be suitable sources of meat. I'm eating things now that I would never have eaten before going vegan. All I've really done is changed where my limits lie.

Sounds like our crazy friend here has never heard of the food chain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy76xmMfi8E

Seriously though, denying yourself salt and vinegar crisps because they have some tiny amount of milk in? Studying every ingredients list?

Sounds pretty extreme to me. I'm far to much of a nihilist for that.

joenobody · January 2018

TheBigBean wrote:

To my mind you have contradicted yourself - it is not that hard, but you check the ingredients of everything you eat.

It's not hard to do that, it takes a moment to do. We cook from scratch at home, so we know what's in our food there. Eating out can be harder, but that's usually only because waiting staff don't always know and have to check with the kitchen. More and more things these days are clearly labelled as suitable, so the overhead is small. I just can't say it's as easy as not checking at all. Of course knowing what's in your food is important regardless of your particular outlook.

Also, I have had some amazing vegan meals and some thoroughly disappointing ones. It seems far harder, even for professionals, to cook the former than the latter for vegan food.

I've experienced the same, although I suspect the disappointing meals are down to an "I believe it's difficult so I won't even try" or "not a bloody vegan?! I'm not going to try for them" attitude.

TheBigBean · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

Also, I have had some amazing vegan meals and some thoroughly disappointing ones. It seems far harder, even for professionals, to cook the former than the latter for vegan food.

I've experienced the same, although I suspect the disappointing meals are down to an "I believe it's difficult so I won't even try" or "not a bloody vegan?! I'm not going to try for them" attitude.

My disappointing meals have been at the hands of professional chefs specialising in vegan/vegetarian and vegetarian amateurs. It's just harder which is why people eat meat. As I said, I am more than happy for you to put in the effort, but it is not something I wish to do.

The only vegetarian exception I can think of is pizza, and vegan exception is south Indian food.

TheBigBean · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

If it tastes nice & it’s done sustainably sure.

I reckon neither criterion are met in that instance.

TheBigBean wrote:

Happy to eat them except they are protected and in short supply, so that is a slightly different matter.

But there's more to it than that, surely. If the market was there then there'd be breeding programs to support the market.

There's a well known market for ivory, but breeding, feeding and keeping elephants just isn't that easy

keef66 · January 2018

I must say I'm so impressed by the stamina shown by young Joe and his plant-based friends in sticking to the thread, I think there may be something in this vegan malarkey!

If you don't mind me asking, what was the hardest thing when you started it?

Do you find you're constantly thinking about the amount of carbs, protein, fats, etc, or do you just eat what you feel like once you know what you're doing?

Do you have to eat inordinately large amounts of green leafy stuff to get enough iron, or take any supplements?

Do you think you spend more or less on food than the average indiscriminate omnivore? I know some of the trendier berries, grains, odd vegetables and oils / fats become stupidly expensive once the blogosphere gets hold of them.

And finally, when you're not eating out, do you have to prepare most of your meals from fresh ingredients, or are there now sufficiently good ready meals?

pblakeney · January 2018

keef66 wrote:

And finally, when you're not eating out, do you have to prepare most of your meals from fresh ingredients, or are there now sufficiently good ready meals?

Ready meals?
Not the strongest point to make for any side in any debate.

trek_dan · January 2018

fat daddy wrote:

trek_dan wrote:

So you hide the actual facts (that cute animals die so she can have her beef burgers) from her to protect your own agenda that eating meat is ok? I think that is propaganda

I leave out the emotion, I dont hide the facts, she knows animals die so we can eat them, she knows we dont buy the cheap chicken and eggs because they abuse the animals

your propaganda though does leave out the facts and only uses emotion to try to get its point across .... makes you wonder why it cant just use the facts doesnt it ??

Facts about what exactly?

joenobody · January 2018

keef66 wrote:

I must say I'm so impressed by the stamina shown by young Joe and his plant-based friends in sticking to the thread, I think there may be something in this vegan malarkey!

If you don't mind me asking, what was the hardest thing when you started it?

For me it was giving up fish/seafood. I thought it would be giving up steaks and/or eating enough to support the physical demands of running/cycling/triathlon.

Do you find you're constantly thinking about the amount of carbs, protein, fats, etc, or do you just eat what you feel like once you know what you're doing?

I don't think about it all that much. Maybe a bit about protein, but only because I work out fairly regularly.

Do you have to eat inordinately large amounts of green leafy stuff to get enough iron, or take any supplements?

Not sure about inordinately large amounts, but yes, more than previously. I do supplement with multi-vits, mainly for B12, and now and again with for omega 3/6.

Do you think you spend more or less on food than the average indiscriminate omnivore? I know some of the trendier berries, grains, odd vegetables and oils / fats become stupidly expensive once the blogosphere gets hold of them.

About the same, but before switching my wife was in to organic everything, including meat. She's still in to that, so the money we save on the meat we spend on the trendier stuff. Plant milk is expensive (upwards of £1 a litre depending on what you buy) so we make our own now.

And finally, when you're not eating out, do you have to prepare most of your meals from fresh ingredients, or are there now sufficiently good ready meals?

There are good ready meals now, and the situation is getting better every day. Tesco just released a range backed/developed by some celeb vegan chefs. We were mostly cooking from scratch at home anyway, so that's still the same. It's possible to live solely on vegan junk food - you don't have to be plant-based to be vegan, although I believe you should, even if just to counter the "it can't be healthy" argument.

fat daddy · January 2018

trek_dan wrote:

Facts about what exactly?

I didnt mean that the adverts were missing out facts ... yes we kill animals and yes they leave there mothers to do so ... welcome to life and death.

It was more the making up of Facts, the emotional attachment of baby pigs trusting us ... they dont, that is total fabrication to sell a story that this animal is emotionally attached to us and we are breaking this trust in the same way that we would break the trust between a mother and her child if the mum ate the child.

I disagree with this fabrication of reality and emotional blackmail

out of interest why dont you see anti vegetable adverts claiming "Raped, beaten, exploited: the 21st-century slavery propping up Sicilian farming Thousands of female Romanian farm workers are suffering horrendous abuse" ???

to be honest I would rather a cow suffer for 5 minutes than a young girl tortured for years ... eat the beef burger .. put down the lettuce !

joenobody · January 2018

fat daddy wrote:

your propaganda though does leave out the facts

fat daddy wrote:

I didnt mean that the adverts were missing out facts

You might want to think about how what you wrote sounds, because on the face of it these two statements are contradictory.

rjsterry · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

fat daddy wrote:

Its not delivered as a balanced informercial, its designed to prey on the vulnerability of children and the weak "they trust us, we take them from there mothers and butcher them" My child knows where meat comes from, she knows we eat animals, I don't sell it to here though by showing her the cutest animal possible then telling her I will take it away from its mummy and its going to cry and then I am going to shoot a bolt through its head :roll: .. oh look she is traumatised

Again I'll ask my question, are you suggesting that only strong people will be able to resist the desire to stop unnecessarily killing animals for our own gain? This wouldn't be my approach, but some people really don't understand route an animal takes between "where it comes from" and their plate, and the shock approach can open their eyes to that.

You're still taking the view that it's demonstrably wrong to kill animals for food. It's not a question of necessity, at least for your average Briton. The bits I was objecting to particularly (aside from the sanctimony) was the inaccuracy of ascribing an abstract human concept - trust - to farm animals. They do not trust us; it's just bullshit.

Also what's the cuteness of the animal got to do with it? Is it only aesthetically pleasing animals that deserve not to be eaten. We all know why petals doesn't picket outside pest control companies.

haydenm · January 2018

On the anthropomorphism point, fungi are neither plants nor animals, they form some of the most complex lifeforms on Earth and allow trees to 'speak' to each other through mycorrhizal symbiosis. We don't really understand their 'language' and we might not understand their 'emotions' even if we could. Trees react when other trees are being cut down but because they aren't very human like it's not an issue for us. It begs the question why we think some life forms are more valuable than others because they display more human like emotions? I've made this point really badly but I don't really agree with not eating some living things because they think a bit like we do. I really have no problem with veganism though, I might be convinced from a health/environmental viewpoint to cut down on meat

rick_chasey · January 2018

rjsterry wrote:

JoeNobody wrote:

fat daddy wrote:

Its not delivered as a balanced informercial, its designed to prey on the vulnerability of children and the weak "they trust us, we take them from there mothers and butcher them" My child knows where meat comes from, she knows we eat animals, I don't sell it to here though by showing her the cutest animal possible then telling her I will take it away from its mummy and its going to cry and then I am going to shoot a bolt through its head :roll: .. oh look she is traumatised

Again I'll ask my question, are you suggesting that only strong people will be able to resist the desire to stop unnecessarily killing animals for our own gain? This wouldn't be my approach, but some people really don't understand route an animal takes between "where it comes from" and their plate, and the shock approach can open their eyes to that.

You're still taking the view that it's demonstrably wrong to kill animals for food. It's not a question of necessity, at least for your average Briton. The bits I was objecting to particularly (aside from the sanctimony) was the inaccuracy of ascribing an abstract human concept - trust - to farm animals. They do not trust us; it's just bullshit.

Also what's the cuteness of the animal got to do with it? Is it only aesthetically pleasing animals that deserve not to be eaten. We all know why petals doesn't picket outside pest control companies.

I foolishly entered a debate with my mother in law where she said she could never eat a horse 'because they are too beautiful'.

I asked about lamb and she said 'I don't like to be cornered Rick. Don't do that.'

joenobody · January 2018

rjsterry wrote:

You're still taking the view that it's demonstrably wrong to kill animals for food.

Of course. If I didn't believe that I wouldn't be vegan.

It's not a question of necessity, at least for your average Briton.

Exactly, so why do it?

The bits I was objecting to particularly (aside from the sanctimony) was the inaccuracy of ascribing an abstract human concept - trust - to farm animals. They do not trust us; it's just bullshit.

Also what's the cuteness of the animal got to do with it? Is it only aesthetically pleasing animals that deserve not to be eaten.

True, it's a (huge) stretch to say they trust us. Based on my own experience, and what I see with my kids, baby pigs, cows and sheep are cute. Even the adults to a degree. But, yes, it's an emotional appeal because some believe that logic (why do we continue to do something we don't need to do?) doesn't work. It doesn't work for everyone, but I suspect that to whoever paid for the ads, if only one person is convinced then it was money well spent.

We all know why petals doesn't picket outside pest control companies.

I don't know, but maybe it's also about scale? How many animals does the pest control industry kill in a year? It's over a billion for the food industry in the UK.

fat daddy · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

You might want to think about how what you wrote sounds, because on the face of it these two statements are contradictory.

I dont have to think about it, it was a friggin typo, omnivores makes mistakes when they type :roll: ..... either way the advert is wrong and misleading

and at this point I think someone needs to discredit me my pointing out a spelling mistake or incorrect grammar ? .. anyone ?

Ben6899 · January 2018

Militant adverts aside, some people seem to have a real issue with veganism (and vegetarianism).

Wow.

rick_chasey · January 2018

Ben6899 wrote:

Militant adverts aside, some people seem to have a real issue with veganism (and vegetarianism).

Wow.

Ah eat what you like. Fine by me.

I wouldn’t expect an invite for dinner from me, but then you weren’t anyway.

rjsterry · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

You're still taking the view that it's demonstrably wrong to kill animals for food.

Of course. If I didn't believe that I wouldn't be vegan.

It's not a question of necessity, at least for your average Briton.

Exactly, so why do it?

If you don't hold that belief, why not?

The bits I was objecting to particularly (aside from the sanctimony) was the inaccuracy of ascribing an abstract human concept - trust - to farm animals. They do not trust us; it's just bullshit.

Also what's the cuteness of the animal got to do with it? Is it only aesthetically pleasing animals that deserve not to be eaten.

True, it's a (huge) stretch to say they trust us. Based on my own experience, and what I see with my kids, baby pigs, cows and sheep are cute. Even the adults to a degree. But, yes, it's an emotional appeal because some believe that logic (why do we continue to do something we don't need to do?) doesn't work. It doesn't work for everyone, but I suspect that to whoever paid for the ads, if only one person is convinced then it was money well spent.

Buying out an entire station, I think they'd be disappointed with just one convert.

We all know why petals doesn't picket outside pest control companies.

I don't know, but maybe it's also about scale? How many animals does the pest control industry kill in a year? It's over a billion for the food industry in the UK.

Ha. People rather than petals. If you're counting individual insects then it would be quite a big number.

bompington · January 2018

Ben6899 wrote:

Militant adverts aside, some people seem to have a real issue with veganism (and vegetarianism).

Wow.

I'm not sure anyone who has posted on this thread has a problem with people choosing not to eat certain things.
What I - and I think a lot of others - do have a problem with, is Veganism with the capital V - the ideology that insists on telling us, often quite vehemently, that we're planet-destroying murderers. Frequently with a side helping of self-righteousness and smug self-satisfaction at their own purity that would be instantly recognisable to anyone who had meet a 1st century Pharisee.

haydenm · January 2018

Ben6899 wrote:

Militant adverts aside, some people seem to have a real issue with veganism (and vegetarianism).

Wow.

I think for the public in general it is easy to be polarised by the more extreme end, as with most things. Similar to why people really hate cyclists or environmentalists. A sensible conversation with you guys or some of my vegan friends tends to make more of an impact on me than some of the PETA stuff you see

trek_dan · January 2018

fat daddy wrote:

trek_dan wrote:

Facts about what exactly?

I didnt mean that the adverts were missing out facts ... yes we kill animals and yes they leave there mothers to do so ... welcome to life and death.

It was more the making up of Facts, the emotional attachment of baby pigs trusting us ... they dont, that is total fabrication to sell a story that this animal is emotionally attached to us and we are breaking this trust in the same way that we would break the trust between a mother and her child if the mum ate the child.

I disagree with this fabrication of reality and emotional blackmail

out of interest why dont you see anti vegetable adverts claiming "Raped, beaten, exploited: the 21st-century slavery propping up Sicilian farming Thousands of female Romanian farm workers are suffering horrendous abuse" ???

to be honest I would rather a cow suffer for 5 minutes than a young girl tortured for years ... eat the beef burger .. put down the lettuce !

The farm workers who deal with your cow are probably slave labour too. Pigs do become attached to humans the same way dogs do.

haydenm · January 2018

trek_dan wrote:

Pigs do become attached to humans the same way dogs do.

I agree that shows how arbitrary our dietary preferences really are. I would eat a farmed dog if it's welfare was properly considered, I probably wouldn't want to eat my pet dog/pig unless I really had to but I am aware that that is an evolutionary trick of the mind. Finding things 'cute' and having protective urges is in the eye of the beholder

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