Veganism

rjsterry

I thought about putting this in the seemingly trivial thread but it's more than that. I passed through Clapham Common tube station today and it has been carpet bombed with pro-vegan advertising. 80-90% of the advertising space including the turnstiles has been bought out by Eden with various cutesy photos of cuddly farm animals and photogenic people gazing longingly at them.

Mostly I can't get too worked up about other people's eating habits but there was something more belligerent and downright dishonest about this. The tag line on every poster was "They trust us. We butcher them."

For starters, projecting the concept of trust onto animals is just rose tinted anthropomorphism. Their animals not four-legged furry people FFS.

Then there is the (inaccurate) implication that anyone who eats eat meat is a callous bastard who doesn't give a damn about the welfare of the animals they eat. This suggests at best a level of ignorance of how meat is produced in this country. The smug self-righteousness of it is just breath-taking. Yes, meat is butchered after the animal has been killed.

The best bit was that Eden have set up a "farmed animal sanctuary" (aka a farm) in Ireland where "rescued" animals endure a long journey so that they can live out their slightly longer lives before dying of old age or disease.

If people aren't comfortable eating meat that's absolutely fine, but the attempt to guilt-trip people into following suit with some cute photoshopped animals and misleading slogans and the fairytale that farm animals can be rescued is just nauseating.

Should I have just left this in the trivial thread?

chris_bass

are there any animals you wouldn't be ok with eating?

trivial_poursuivant

These selfish smug self righteous w@nkers obviously don’t care about trees when you look at all the paper they waste on leaflets and flyers.

cougie

You sound awfully wound up about them. If they're not your beliefs ignore them.

chris_bass

You need to make a distinction between vegans, veganism and vegan activists. Otherwise you run the risk of gong down the all muslims are terrorists, all cyclists are a menace to road users, all ..... are ..... route

i am not vegan, but pretty much, it is because i really like animals and don't want them to have to die or suffer wherever possible. But i would never tell anyone else to change their ways. There are plenty of level headed, mild mannered vegans but you only see/hear from the ones who want to force their views on others.

Much like extreme sections of any group of people.

aberdeen_lune

"They trust us we butcher them" that is true isn't it? Have you seen the film Ferdinand? You will just have to admit to yourself how callous you are. Karma will eventually catch up with you when you come back as a farm animal.

rjsterry

cougie wrote:

You sound awfully wound up about them. If they're not your beliefs ignore them.

Normally, I'd agree, but when an entire station is covered floor to ceiling in pretty aggressive advertising, it's a step beyond "have you considered the benefits of...?" and CB's second point is fair. It's the activists that I'm criticising here, and their romanticised ideas of animals.

To answer CB'S first point I don't actually think killing an animal humanely is cruel. The conditions in which it is reared are far more important. I do hope Eden's farm has the utmost welfare standards.

bartman100

This suggests at best a level of ignorance of how meat is produced in this country. The smug self-righteousness of it is just breath-taking. Yes, meat is butchered after the animal has been killed.

You're right - supreme ignorance on the part of most. Meat comes in chunks in clingfilm. The vast majority don't give a shit about the route to their plate - the husbandry, the environmental damage done by intensive farming, the miserable shitty conditions the animals are raised in, the shocking wastage: it takes 1m2 to produce a single gram of protein from beef cattle or sheep. Get all Jeremy Clarkson about it if it makes you feel better. These people may have used the wrong language and/or motives but I'm glad it pissed you off.

imposter2.0

https://www.asa.org.uk/make-a-complaint.html

pblakeney

I presume they were all wearing wooden clogs?
Couldn't have been wearing leather or nasty oil based plastic*.

I know oil based plastic has little directly to do with animal welfare but the protestors are usually one and the same.

sungod

herd (aka prey) animals don't "trust us" any more than they trust each other

this type of propaganda is a deliberate, cruel, and cynical attempt to manipulate the weak of mind

humans are animals too, it proves the hypocrisy of extremist vegans

Pross

Thing is, even if you believe the 'butchering' propaganda I struggle to see why anyone opts for being vegan over vegetarian. Besides, wouldn't certain breeds of animal just become extinct if they weren't farmed for meat or do they think people will keep them as pets? There are plenty of animals that are kept alive in far worse conditions than meat livestock endure for their short lives.

lesfirth

PBlakeney wrote:

I presume they were all wearing wooden clogs?
Couldn't have been wearing leather or nasty oil based plastic*.

I know oil based plastic has little directly to do with animal welfare but the protestors are usually one and the same.

Would the clogs have to be made of wood from trees that have been blown down by the wind or is it OK for a vegan to kill a tree with a chainsaw to get some wood?

veronese68

I agree with CB, it’s the extremists that are the problem. As in most things.
RJS, if you’d been riding your bike it wouldn’t have been an issue ;-)

trivial_poursuivant

Pross wrote:

Thing is, even if you believe the 'butchering' propaganda I struggle to see why anyone opts for being vegan over vegetarian. Besides, wouldn't certain breeds of animal just become extinct if they weren't farmed for meat or do they think people will keep them as pets? There are plenty of animals that are kept alive in far worse conditions than meat livestock endure for their short lives.

Agree to a certain extent. In the UK at least , animal welfare is pretty decent. The closest we ever come to questionable conditions is chickens. Most other farmed animals are well cared for and free to roam. The barbaric fur trade, on the other hand, is disgraceful and the sooner it is stopped worldwide the better.

What vegans fail to consider is, if we all became vegan, even with all the extra land available for crops that animals graze on we could never in a million years feed the population year in year out. Crops can fail, pest, disease, natural disaster can wipe out entire crops. Veg has a certain period of use. You need time to grow it, then harvest it then unless you freeze it, will begin to rot. Animals are always there until the time comes to slaughter them. You can do that at any time. Also, Animals are much more resilient to such things like disease or pest damage. We import the vast majority of all our fruit and veg. A large proportion of farmland growing cerials in the uk gets turned into bio fuels, vegetable oil, animal feed. A lot of the land needs time to recover through crop rotation. Even the amount of phosphorus required for fertiliser is starting to dry out. If every country decided to stop eating animals and eat nothing but fruit and veg we would all starve.

cooldad

Is bacon a vegetable?

trivial_poursuivant

cooldad wrote:

Is bacon a vegetable?

Yes, along with beer and fags, it’s one of your 5 a day

rjsterry

bartman100 wrote:

This suggests at best a level of ignorance of how meat is produced in this country. The smug self-righteousness of it is just breath-taking. Yes, meat is butchered after the animal has been killed.

You're right - supreme ignorance on the part of most. Meat comes in chunks in clingfilm. The vast majority don't give a shoot about the route to their plate - the husbandry, the environmental damage done by intensive farming, the miserable sh!tty conditions the animals are raised in, the shocking wastage: it takes 1m2 to produce a single gram of protein from beef cattle or sheep. Get all Jeremy Clarkson about it if it makes you feel better. These people may have used the wrong language and/or motives but I'm glad it pissed you off.

Do tell me more about intensive sheep farming. There are good arguments for eating less meat because of the resources needed to produce it. Animal welfare in some parts of the industry is not good enough. I know that as a family member has been pulling people up on their welfare standards for the last 30-40 years. I'm quite happy for someone to make a case for eating less/no meat if they want. What pisses me off is the sub-Beatrix Potter, pseudo-scientific bollocks that suggests that the only farm these people have ever visited is their hobby farm - sorry, sanctuary - in Ireland.

rjsterry

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Pross wrote:

Thing is, even if you believe the 'butchering' propaganda I struggle to see why anyone opts for being vegan over vegetarian. Besides, wouldn't certain breeds of animal just become extinct if they weren't farmed for meat or do they think people will keep them as pets? There are plenty of animals that are kept alive in far worse conditions than meat livestock endure for their short lives.

Agree to a certain extent. In the UK at least , animal welfare is pretty decent. The closest we ever come to questionable conditions is chickens. Most other farmed animals are well cared for and free to roam. The barbaric fur trade, on the other hand, is disgraceful and the sooner it is stopped worldwide the better.

What vegans fail to consider is, if we all became vegan, even with all the extra land available for crops that animals graze on we could never in a million years feed the population year in year out. Crops can fail, pest, disease, natural disaster can wipe out entire crops. Veg has a certain period of use. You need time to grow it, then harvest it then unless you freeze it, will begin to rot. Animals are always there until the time comes to slaughter them. You can do that at any time. Also, Animals are much more resilient to such things like disease or pest damage. We import the vast majority of all our fruit and veg. A large proportion of farmland growing cerials in the uk gets turned into bio fuels, vegetable oil, animal feed. A lot of the land needs time to recover through crop rotation. Even the amount of phosphorus required for fertiliser is starting to dry out. If every country decided to stop eating animals and eat nothing but fruit and veg we would all starve.

More to the point, who the **** is going to look after all the animals that they 'rescue'? And with what money? One hobby farm in Ireland is hardly going to cut it. Or do we just sterilise them all so they all go extinct after we've eaten the last generation?

rjsterry

Veronese68 wrote:

I agree with CB, it’s the extremists that are the problem. As in most things.
RJS, if you’d been riding your bike it wouldn’t have been an issue ;-)

Ouch! Not sure my clients are ready for a rain-soaked, slightly hypothermic man in lycra at 8.15am.

joenobody

rjsterry wrote:

I don't actually think killing an animal humanely is cruel.

How do you humanely kill an animal? Is tw*tting it in the head with a bolt gun humane? What about chucking male chicks in a grinder, alive, because they don't lay eggs? Probably the closest you'll get is with a clean headshot from a high-powered rifle.

joenobody

cooldad wrote:

Is bacon a vegetable?

15 posts before the first mention of bacon. Slow hand-clap...

Lookyhere

rjsterry wrote:

cougie wrote:

You sound awfully wound up about them. If they're not your beliefs ignore them.

Normally, I'd agree, but when an entire station is covered floor to ceiling in pretty aggressive advertising, it's a step beyond "have you considered the benefits of...?" and CB's second point is fair. It's the activists that I'm criticising here, and their romanticised ideas of animals.

To answer CB'S first point I don't actually think killing an animal humanely is cruel. The conditions in which it is reared are far more important. I do hope Eden's farm has the utmost welfare standards.

Ever taken animals you ve helped rear to a slaughter house?

I have, many moons ago, its distressing, they kinda know what happening to them, can smell death, i dont know but i refused to do it again.
It was small farm, animals cared for and looked after, plenty of space, the slaughter house, small and personal.

I still eat meat but your assertion is wrong, farm animals can became pets, when i was a kid, a local woman kept a pig in her front room, she had it for years, took it in as a new born, became fond of it and kept it as you would any other pet.

i doubt you d take your spaniel to be killed, packaged up, say its humane and it didnt know.

joenobody

Pross wrote:

Thing is, even if you believe the 'butchering' propaganda I struggle to see why anyone opts for being vegan over vegetarian. Besides, wouldn't certain breeds of animal just become extinct if they weren't farmed for meat or do they think people will keep them as pets? There are plenty of animals that are kept alive in far worse conditions than meat livestock endure for their short lives.

There's significant cruelty/exploitation in eggs and dairy so, if the person in question is taking an ethical stance, there's probably more reason to go vegan than just veggie.

The extinction argument is nonsensical. Given that most "food animals" exist now solely because they're bred for food then it's not really a bad thing if they do go extinct. It's almost as bad as asking if they'll take over the world if we stop killing them. Of course that won't happen, because we won't be breeding them in unnaturally large numbers.

bartman100

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Agree to a certain extent. In the UK at least , animal welfare is pretty decent. The closest we ever come to questionable conditions is chickens. Most other farmed animals are well cared for and free to roam.

Bold claim. Evidence?

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

What vegans fail to consider is, if we all became vegan, even with all the extra land available for crops that animals graze on we could never in a million years feed the population year in year out. Crops can fail, pest, disease, natural disaster can wipe out entire crops. Veg has a certain period of use. You need time to grow it, then harvest it then unless you freeze it, will begin to rot. Animals are always there until the time comes to slaughter them. You can do that at any time. Also, Animals are much more resilient to such things like disease or pest damage. We import the vast majority of all our fruit and veg. A large proportion of farmland growing cerials in the uk gets turned into bio fuels, vegetable oil, animal feed. A lot of the land needs time to recover through crop rotation. Even the amount of phosphorus required for fertiliser is starting to dry out. If every country decided to stop eating animals and eat nothing but fruit and veg we would all starve.

rjsterry

JoeNobody wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I don't actually think killing an animal humanely is cruel.

How do you humanely kill an animal? Is tw*tting it in the head with a bolt gun humane? What about chucking male chicks in a grinder, alive, because they don't lay eggs? Probably the closest you'll get is with a clean headshot from a high-powered rifle.

In the UK, poultry, sheep, goats, pigs and cattle are usually electrically stunned so they are unconscious and insensitive, and then killed by exsanguination (bled). That sounds pretty humane to me.

chris_bass

Veronese68 wrote:

I agree with CB

I've always liked you

trivial_poursuivant

the beef part completely distorts that statistic. Remove that and pork and other animals make the farm land quite balanced. Animals can graze in places you would never be able to grow crops. Cutting back on beef would help a lot but no animals at all is not sustainable to feed the world population adequately with a balanced diet

trivial_poursuivant

bartman100 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Agree to a certain extent. In the UK at least , animal welfare is pretty decent. The closest we ever come to questionable conditions is chickens. Most other farmed animals are well cared for and free to roam.

Bold claim. Evidence?

We have quite stringent laws for animal welfare in the uk. You will get cases of farms or processing businesses breaking the rules and they get quite rightly punished. But generally up and down the country the overwhelming majority of farms take as much care as possible in their livestock’s welfare. You an pick out horror stories but they not as common as you imagine.

rjsterry

Lookyhere wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

cougie wrote:

You sound awfully wound up about them. If they're not your beliefs ignore them.

Normally, I'd agree, but when an entire station is covered floor to ceiling in pretty aggressive advertising, it's a step beyond "have you considered the benefits of...?" and CB's second point is fair. It's the activists that I'm criticising here, and their romanticised ideas of animals.

To answer CB'S first point I don't actually think killing an animal humanely is cruel. The conditions in which it is reared are far more important. I do hope Eden's farm has the utmost welfare standards.

Ever taken animals you ve helped rear to a slaughter house?

I have, many moons ago, its distressing, they kinda know what happening to them, can smell death, i dont know but i refused to do it again.
It was small farm, animals cared for and looked after, plenty of space, the slaughter house, small and personal.

I still eat meat but your assertion is wrong, farm animals can became pets, when i was a kid, a local woman kept a pig in her front room, she had it for years, took it in as a new born, became fond of it and kept it as you would any other pet.

i doubt you d take your spaniel to be killed, packaged up, say its humane and it didnt know.

I grew up in a veterinary household. People used to bring half-dead animals to the back door, so I've seen quite a few animals euthanased, including most of our family pets when disease robbed them of a decent quality of life. Of course you get sentimental about animals that you develop an attachment to. I think I'd be worried if someone didn't.

bartman100

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

bartman100 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Agree to a certain extent. In the UK at least , animal welfare is pretty decent. The closest we ever come to questionable conditions is chickens. Most other farmed animals are well cared for and free to roam.

Bold claim. Evidence?

We have quite stringent laws for animal welfare in the uk. You will get cases of farms or processing businesses breaking the rules and they get quite rightly punished. But generally up and down the country the overwhelming majority of farms take as much care as possible in their livestock’s welfare. You an pick out horror stories but they not as common as you imagine.

What we actually have, seems to me to be a number of largely toothless 'Standards', aimed to placate the troublesome few who raise a peep against the all powerful Farming Lobby. The Red Tractor standard for example for Broiler Chickens scored *lower* than any other comparable standard in Compassion in World Farming: https://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2012/05/re ... al-welfare.

In any event, the majority don't even know about these legal minimum welfare standards in the Uk that are token efforts in any case. Your pork (unless sourced carefully) might likely come from Denmark or anywhere else in EU. Google 'sow stalls' and 'farrowing crates'. Enjoy your bacon sandwich.