Veganism

joenobody

bompington wrote:

You actual post neatly illustrates the anthropomorphism behind most animal rights stuff. You literally cannot put yourself in an animal's hooves and imagine how they must feel.

Nice bit of selective editing there - you've left out the artificial insemination, milk sucking machines and early death bits. You know, the unpleasant bits. If it was really just "standing in a field eating grass" it wouldn't be a problem. As Lookyhere said on page 2, and other accounts, by meat eaters and vegans alike, I've seen have talked about, when the time comes the animals know what's coming. If we can see how they react to it then we can certainly put ourselves in their hooves and imagine how that might feel.

Lookyhere wrote:

Ever taken animals you ve helped rear to a slaughter house?

I have, many moons ago, its distressing, they kinda know what happening to them, can smell death, i dont know but i refused to do it again.
It was small farm, animals cared for and looked after, plenty of space, the slaughter house, small and personal.

laurentian

JoeNobody wrote:

bompington wrote:

As Lookyhere said on page 2, and other accounts, by meat eaters and vegans alike, I've seen have talked about, when the time comes the animals know what's coming. If we can see how they react to it then we can certainly put ourselves in their hooves and imagine how that might feel.

Lookyhere wrote:

Ever taken animals you ve helped rear to a slaughter house?

I have, many moons ago, its distressing, they kinda know what happening to them, can smell death, i dont know . . .

. . . As someone who has seen this many more times than most, I would contest this.

john80

I am not even sure that cows and sheep could survive without farmers. Sheep would suffer at the hands of winter, predators, birthing complications. Cows would likely die of hypothermia if left in the countryside amongst other issues. Therefore if making the cow do work is bad even if you give it the best welfare we possibly can then why are we doing all sorts of other stuff by this same logic.

Your drugs and explosives dog gets made to run around hunting for stuff we can't smell and might even get blown up. A sheep dog goes out in the rain herding sheep for our purposes. Police dogs and horses do riot policing. We even keep dogs as pets.

If we all went vegan I wonder how long it would take for a campaign to save cows, chickens, sheep from facing extinction.

joenobody

john80 wrote:

Your drugs and explosives dog gets made to run around hunting for stuff we can't smell and might even get blown up. A sheep dog goes out in the rain herding sheep for our purposes. Police dogs and horses do riot policing. We even keep dogs as pets.

The sheep dog point is easy - if we weren't keeping sheep then we wouldn't need sheep dogs. Riding horses is also not vegan. It gets trickier, for me at least, when considering drugs/bomb/police dogs. On one hand working dogs have generally been bred to develop their characteristic strengths which isn't particularly vegan. On the other hand, they are generally very well looked after, as are pets, and not subject to summary execution , but are also providing a valuable service. Pets are also not strictly vegan. However, given the fairly wide availability of rescue animals it's considered to be vegan if you take a rescue animal instead of, say, a pedigree.

If we all went vegan I wonder how long it would take for a campaign to save cows, chickens, sheep from facing extinction.

I'd be surprised to see that from vegans, but you never know. People can be fickle...

bompington

JoeNobody wrote:

bompington wrote:

You kg post neatly illustrates the anthropomorphism behind most animal rights stuff. You literally cannot put yourself in an animal's hooves and imagine how they must feel.

Nice bit of selective editing there - you've left out the artificial insemination, milk sucking machines and early death bits. You know, the unpleasant bits. If it was really just "standing in a field eating grass" it wouldn't be a problem. As Lookyhere said on page 2, and other accounts, by meat eaters and vegans alike, I've seen have talked about, when the time comes the animals know what's coming. If we can see how they react to it then we can certainly put ourselves in their hooves and imagine how that might feel.

Lookyhere wrote:

Ever taken animals you ve helped rear to a slaughter house?

I have, many moons ago, its distressing, they kinda know what happening to them, can smell death, i dont know but i refused to do it again.
It was small farm, animals cared for and looked after, plenty of space, the slaughter house, small and personal.

Firstly, you completely missed my point: it's not the pleasantness or otherwise of the experience that matters, it's that you and I cannot know what it is like for an animal to experience it.
Secondly, I would contest that animals "know what's coming". They may be fearful (though even that is overstated, as mentioned above) but they cannot "know" in any sense they annihilation awaits them, not have the existential dread that humans do. Anthropomorphism.

Stevo_666

JoeNobody wrote:

Vegetarians still, mostly, eat eggs and dairy, so some animals still die to feed them. Often they'll also still wear leather/wool. It's a step in the right direction, although it seems strange to me that someone would go veggie for ethical reasons, instead of vegan.

This is the bit I don't get - in order to produce milk, eggs etc the relevant animal has to be alive. So how are they dying in order to feed us?

slowbike

Stevo 666 wrote:

JoeNobody wrote:

Vegetarians still, mostly, eat eggs and dairy, so some animals still die to feed them. Often they'll also still wear leather/wool. It's a step in the right direction, although it seems strange to me that someone would go veggie for ethical reasons, instead of vegan.

This is the bit I don't get - in order to produce milk, eggs etc the relevant animal has to be alive. So how are they dying in order to feed us?

Duh - when they've past their usefulness in producing the desired produce ...

Chickens that don't lay eggs = find another use or dispose of them ....

drlodge

Animals will die at some point anyway, its just a matter of when (and how).

joenobody

bompington wrote:

Firstly, you completely missed my point: it's not the pleasantness or otherwise of the experience that matters, it's that you and I cannot know what it is like for an animal to experience it.
Secondly, I would contest that animals "know what's coming". They may be fearful (though even that is overstated, as mentioned above) but they cannot "know" in any sense they annihilation awaits them, not have the existential dread that humans do. Anthropomorphism.

Hoist by your own petard? If we cannot know what it's like for an animal to experience the things it experiences then we cannot know that they are completely unaware of their impending death. What's wrong with taking the humane view that, assuming we can't know for sure, that they are aware? We already anthropomorphise pets, why not other animals?

joenobody

Slowbike wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

JoeNobody wrote:

Vegetarians still, mostly, eat eggs and dairy, so some animals still die to feed them. Often they'll also still wear leather/wool. It's a step in the right direction, although it seems strange to me that someone would go veggie for ethical reasons, instead of vegan.

This is the bit I don't get - in order to produce milk, eggs etc the relevant animal has to be alive. So how are they dying in order to feed us?

Duh - when they've past their usefulness in producing the desired produce ...

Chickens that don't lay eggs = find another use or dispose of them ....

Not just chickens. Largely it's the females that are useful so the males are killed off quicker - e.g. male chicks straight in to a grinder at birth...

Stevo_666

Slowbike wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

JoeNobody wrote:

Vegetarians still, mostly, eat eggs and dairy, so some animals still die to feed them. Often they'll also still wear leather/wool. It's a step in the right direction, although it seems strange to me that someone would go veggie for ethical reasons, instead of vegan.

This is the bit I don't get - in order to produce milk, eggs etc the relevant animal has to be alive. So how are they dying in order to feed us?

Duh - when they've past their usefulness in producing the desired produce ...

Chickens that don't lay eggs = find another use or dispose of them ....

Very different from 'dying to feed us'.

bompington

JoeNobody wrote:

bompington wrote:

Firstly, you completely missed my point: it's not the pleasantness or otherwise of the experience that matters, it's that you and I cannot know what it is like for an animal to experience it.
Secondly, I would contest that animals "know what's coming". They may be fearful (though even that is overstated, as mentioned above) but they cannot "know" in any sense they annihilation awaits them, not have the existential dread that humans do. Anthropomorphism.

Hoist by your own petard? If we cannot know what it's like for an animal to experience the things it experiences then we cannot know that they are completely unaware of their impending death. What's wrong with taking the humane view that, assuming we can't know for sure, that they are aware? We already anthropomorphise pets, why not other animals?

In that case, surely we can't be sure that plants don't know too?

Or to be less facetious, would it mean that, if a way could be found to kill animals so suddenly that they had no clue of what was happening and remained happy right up till they died - then you'd be happy to eat them? Because if animal suffering is what you don't want, surely that will do the job?

aberdeen_lune

bompington wrote:

JoeNobody wrote:

bompington wrote:

Firstly, you completely missed my point: it's not the pleasantness or otherwise of the experience that matters, it's that you and I cannot know what it is like for an animal to experience it.
Secondly, I would contest that animals "know what's coming". They may be fearful (though even that is overstated, as mentioned above) but they cannot "know" in any sense they annihilation awaits them, not have the existential dread that humans do. Anthropomorphism.

Hoist by your own petard? If we cannot know what it's like for an animal to experience the things it experiences then we cannot know that they are completely unaware of their impending death. What's wrong with taking the humane view that, assuming we can't know for sure, that they are aware? We already anthropomorphise pets, why not other animals?

In that case, surely we can't be sure that plants don't know too?

Or to be less facetious, would it mean that, if a way could be found to kill animals so suddenly that they had no clue of what was happening and remained happy right up till they died - then you'd be happy to eat them? Because if animal suffering is what you don't want, surely that will do the job?

Think you've missed the point completely.

bompington

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

bompington wrote:

JoeNobody wrote:

bompington wrote:

Firstly, you completely missed my point: it's not the pleasantness or otherwise of the experience that matters, it's that you and I cannot know what it is like for an animal to experience it.
Secondly, I would contest that animals "know what's coming". They may be fearful (though even that is overstated, as mentioned above) but they cannot "know" in any sense they annihilation awaits them, not have the existential dread that humans do. Anthropomorphism.

Hoist by your own petard? If we cannot know what it's like for an animal to experience the things it experiences then we cannot know that they are completely unaware of their impending death. What's wrong with taking the humane view that, assuming we can't know for sure, that they are aware? We already anthropomorphise pets, why not other animals?

In that case, surely we can't be sure that plants don't know too?

Or to be less facetious, would it mean that, if a way could be found to kill animals so suddenly that they had no clue of what was happening and remained happy right up till they died - then you'd be happy to eat them? Because if animal suffering is what you don't want, surely that will do the job?

Think you've missed the point completely.

Then animal suffering isn't the issue? Good, I'm glad we've got that one out of the way. Now perhaps someone could explain to me what [is[/i] the issue.

Ben6899

Using our supreme intelligence to exploit another species for our own gain?

joenobody

Ben6899 wrote:

Using our supreme intelligence to exploit another species for our own gain?

Pretty much this. The vegan view is that's it's not ethical to kill (or, as Ben says, exploit) an animal for our gain, regardless of how "humane" it's treated. At the moment there is a question about how painless the slaughter is, despite the various regulations in place to mitigate that. There's evidence that, in some cases (the proportion is debatable), these regulations are not being adhered to. So, while there's a belief that these regulations mean that the animals don't suffer, they actually do.

I'd say that there is (quite) some focus on the suffering part by a lot of vegans. I suspect the reason for this is similar to these ads that prompted this thread - to try to tug at the heart strings of people who still eat meat. Of course this doesn't necessarily help "the cause". The same can be said about some of the films and videos that are out there - they over egg the pudding so far as to, in some cases, discredit themselves. For example, google "Dairy is scary" and invest 5 minutes in watching the video by Erin Janus. There's so much misinformation and exaggeration in there that, in my opinion, it should be considered to be completely worthless. However, there are people who swallow the whole lot and then go on to put it about as a great source of truth. Not good...

FishFish

After far to casual a reflection I responded to someone that the only tinned food I liked was corned beef and Fois Gras. She went nuts at the latter. Did not give a tosss.

drlodge

If we didn't humanely kill animals for food, they'd be left to die of natural causes, which could be really quite unpleasant for some of the animals and cause them far more suffering than a bolt in the head.

bompington

Ben6899 wrote:

Using our supreme intelligence to exploit another species for our own gain?

Fine. Why is this a problem then?

joenobody

bompington wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Using our supreme intelligence to exploit another species for our own gain?

Fine. Why is this a problem then?

I just wrote a lengthy answer to just this question for a different reply in this thread. It comes down to "why do we continue to exploit animals, often at the cost of their lives, when we no longer need to?"

You could argue that using our supreme intelligence to feed and clothe ourselves is perfectly natural. In which case, refer to the question above.

FishFish

bompington wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Using our supreme intelligence to exploit another species for our own gain?

Fine. Why is this a problem then?

It is not. Hopefully we do it to the working class.

drlodge

There are plenty of animals (and some plants) that kill animals in order to feed themselves. Why should us humans be any different?

veronese68

straas wrote:

I always hear about vegans or vegetarians constantly telling everyone about their dietary choices - but in my experience this simply hasn't been true.

It's generally quite the opposite, when someone determines that someone else is a vegetarian or vegan they seem to want to challenge them: "what, not even bacon?"

How does the person know to ask not even bacon if they haven't already been told about dietary choices? Do vegans and vegetarians all wear badges or is there some sort of special greeting? It may be a standard response that gets rather tiresome, but surely it's a response to being told.

Ben6899

bompington wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Using our supreme intelligence to exploit another species for our own gain?

Fine. Why is this a problem then?

Seriously? Why is exploiting another living being a problem?

Horse racing. Testing on animals. Using donkeys to carry all your sh1t up mountains. The list goes on and it can all get in the cold icy depths of the sea as far as I'm concerned.

drlodge

All carnivores "exploit" other animals, its called survival and its the way mother nature intended.

bompington

Ben6899 wrote:

bompington wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Using our supreme intelligence to exploit another species for our own gain?

Fine. Why is this a problem then?

Seriously? Why is exploiting another living being a problem?

Horse racing. Testing on animals. Using donkeys to carry all your sh1t up mountains. The list goes on and it can all get in the cold icy depths of the sea as far as I'm concerned.

So you've told me that you feel bad about exploiting another living being. Without even going into what you define as a living being (flies? bacteria? plants?) you still haven't told me what is objectively wrong with this.

drlodge

bompington wrote:

So you've told me that you feel bad about exploiting another living being. Without even going into what you define as a living being (flies? bacteria? plants?) you still haven't told me what is objectively wrong with this.

And why does your right to eat meat trump his right not to be offended? :roll:

Ben6899

drlodge wrote:

All carnivores "exploit" other animals, its called survival and its the way mother nature intended.

We take it to the next level though. Don't we?

We take it way beyond what I consider reasonable and we've done this by using our supreme intelligence.

Ben6899

drlodge wrote:

bompington wrote:

So you've told me that you feel bad about exploiting another living being. Without even going into what you define as a living being (flies? bacteria? plants?) you still haven't told me what is objectively wrong with this.

And why does your right to eat meat trump his right not to be offended? :roll:

One thing straight here, lads. I am not offended.

Ben6899

bompington wrote:

you still haven't told me what is objectively wrong with this.

I really shouldn't need to explain what is objectively wrong with exploiting another living being - at its loss - for your gain. You're clearly intelligent as demonstrated in other discussions on here - don't hide that to your advantage.

I'm far too Devil may care, to be honest. People do what they like - I won't challenge anyone, that's ludicrous.