Veganism

bompington · January 2018

Chris Bass wrote:

oh no he wasn't
https://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/show/myth_check_was_hitler_a_vegetarian

:?:
That rather vaguely researched piece seems to say he mostly was.

joenobody · January 2018

bompington wrote:

That rather vaguely researched piece seems to say he mostly was.

But not all the time, so actually not?

joenobody · January 2018

Rick Chasey wrote:

It’s quite extreme being vegan.

Is it? Why do you think that?

bompington · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

bompington wrote:

That rather vaguely researched piece seems to say he mostly was.

But not all the time, so actually not?

In that case most of the Vegans I know are not actually Vegan then: not pure enough for you. Or maybe they can be readmitted to the Elect when they've done some suitable penance?

fat daddy · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It’s quite extreme being vegan.

Is it? Why do you think that?

Because All medicines approved by the MHRA or FDA have to be tested on animals before they are tested on humans.

if you are a true vegan, surely you are rather hypocritical if you use any medicine ? ..... or extreme for not touching any medicine ?

timothyw · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It’s quite extreme being vegan.

Is it? Why do you think that?

Primarily because we appear to have evolved to be omnivorous, and in many areas where humans are native you would struggle to feed yourself year round from local produce without eating animal products, one way or another.

Similarly I'd say it's quite extreme to be one of those Jainist monks who sweeps the path as he walks to ensure that no insects are harmed.

I don't think there's anything wrong with either, but they aren't for me.

joenobody · January 2018

bompington wrote:

In that case most of the Vegans I know are not actually Vegan then: not pure enough for you. Or maybe they can be readmitted to the Elect when they've done some suitable penance?

fat daddy wrote:

Because All medicines approved by the MHRA or FDA have to be tested on animals before they are tested on humans.

if you are a true vegan, surely you are rather hypocritical if you use any medicine ? ..... or extreme for not touching any medicine ?

:roll:

The Vegan Society's definition of veganism is this:

The Vegan Society wrote:

Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

I'd say this actually allows more flexibility. Certainly more than vegetarianism, which is just not eating meat or fish (and maybe some other animal-based foods, but not always), and is rather binary - you either eat those things or you don't, so you're either vegetarian or you're not.

It definitely means I don't have to exclude approved approved medicines, and that doesn't make me a hypocrite. It also means that I can still own wool or leather products because I bought them before starting down this path. No-one who goes vegan is expected to ditch everything in their lives that's non-vegan from the moment they make the decision. The key is "as far as possible and practicable"

Food is easy to deal with. Clothing is generally not too difficult, but takes time although, in some circumstances, it's not possible to avoid, for example, glues with animal products in. Money is another good example given the presence of tallow in our new £5 and £10 notes, along with medicine, where it's just not practicable to avoid completely.

Sure, there are extreme vegans who think this flexibility is not good enough, but they're not representative of all vegans.

rick_chasey · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It’s quite extreme being vegan.

Is it? Why do you think that?

You're cutting out a huge amount of potential food stuffs.

Food stuffs that are regularly and conventionally eaten, and food stuffs we have evolved to eat.

Food stuffs that our societies have relied upon for millennia.

I can't think of a single day where I haven't eaten some kind of animal produce at some point.

Zero. Zilch.

And I have a pretty balanced diet, even if I eat too many pastries.

joenobody · January 2018

TimothyW wrote:

Primarily because we appear to have evolved to be omnivorous, and in many areas where humans are native you would struggle to feed yourself year round from local produce without eating animal products, one way or another.

Similarly I'd say it's quite extreme to be one of those Jainist monks who sweeps the path as he walks to ensure that no insects are harmed.

I don't think there's anything wrong with either, but they aren't for me.

See my previous post for the definition of veganism. Most, if not all, vegans will accept that it's not possible for everyone in the world to make the change, but they will hope that it becomes possible at some point in the future.

Is it not more extreme, for those of us where it's not actually necessary to consume animal products, to raise animals (or to support the raising of animals) to be killed for our food & clothes? Particularly if one of the main reasons people give for carrying on is "I like the taste"? It used to be necessary and now it's not in large parts of the world.

fat daddy · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

Sure, there are extreme vegans who think this flexibility is not good enough, but they're not representative of all vegans.

sound like religion to me

just miss the bits out you dont like and still claim you are religious

yeah I am a vegan, totally against animal cruelty and usage ... well unless I have a headache and need an ibruprofen then fcuk the little cute bunnies

Devils advocate !!!! .. I dont give a crap if you are vegan or not, but I do disagree with the vegan posters around town that guilt trip the vulnerable into wanting to be vegan because all the cruelty towards animals :roll:

its a pain in the arse protecting children against that sort of propaganda ... well, without spreading my own about vegans/vegetarians to balance the argument

joenobody · January 2018

Rick Chasey wrote:

You're cutting out a huge amount of potential food stuffs.

Why does that matter?

Food stuffs that are regularly and conventionally eaten, and food stuffs we have evolved to eat.

Food stuffs that our societies have relied upon for millennia.

So it's a case of following tradition? We may have evolved to eat meat, but evidence suggests that it's as a supplement to a primarily plant-based diet, rather than being the leading element.

I can't think of a single day where I haven't eaten some kind of animal produce at some point.

Zero. Zilch.

And I have a pretty balanced diet, even if I eat too many pastries.

I also have a balanced diet and I find it easy to avoid animal products. There is no physical need to consume animal products, so why continue?

joenobody · January 2018

fat daddy wrote:

sound like religion to me

just miss the bits out you dont like and still claim you are religious

yeah I am a vegan, totally against animal cruelty and usage ... well unless I have a headache and need an ibruprofen then fcuk the little cute bunnies

Is pragmatism a religion? It's almost impossible to cut out animal products from all aspects of your life, at least without risking your health in some cases, so focus on the areas where you can. Food is one of those areas where you can focus, same as clothing.

Devils advocate !!!! .. I dont give a crap if you are vegan or not, but I do disagree with the vegan posters around town that guilt trip the vulnerable into wanting to be vegan because all the cruelty towards animals :roll:

its a pain in the ars* protecting children against that sort of propaganda ... well, without spreading my own about vegans/vegetarians to balance the argument

I agree, at least is as far as the method of delivery of the message. I disagree that it's an attempt to guilt trip the vulnerable. It might be an attempt to guilt trip, but it's addressed to everyone. Are you suggesting that only strong people will be able to resist the desire to stop unnecessarily killing animals for our own gain?

rick_chasey · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

You're cutting out a huge amount of potential food stuffs.

Why does that matter?

Food stuffs that are regularly and conventionally eaten, and food stuffs we have evolved to eat.

Food stuffs that our societies have relied upon for millennia.

So it's a case of following tradition? We may have evolved to eat meat, but evidence suggests that it's as a supplement to a primarily plant-based diet, rather than being the leading element.

I can't think of a single day where I haven't eaten some kind of animal produce at some point.

Zero. Zilch.

And I have a pretty balanced diet, even if I eat too many pastries.

I also have a balanced diet and I find it easy to avoid animal products. There is no physical need to consume animal products, so why continue?

Can't be that balanced mate, you don't eat animal products!

And, diversity of food is a wonderful wonderful thing. One of the great pleasures of life. Why you'd ever want to straight jacket yourself into eating a narrower range is beyond me.

One of the great advantages to doing exercise, particularly endurance, is you can be particularly broad in what you eat and how much. It's wonderful. I mean, I can tell you, you're missing out on some really lovely stuff. Life enriching.

joenobody · January 2018

Rick Chasey wrote:

Can't be that balanced mate, you don't eat animal products!

What would I be missing out on? I'm talking about nutritional balance. There's nothing in animal products that I can't get from plant sources, except maybe B12, and that's only in meat because animal feed is supplemented with it.

And, diversity of food is a wonderful wonderful thing. One of the great pleasures of life. Why you'd ever want to straight jacket yourself into eating a narrower range is beyond me.

My diet is more diverse now than it ever has been.

One of the great advantages to doing exercise, particularly endurance, is you can be particularly broad in what you eat and how much. It's wonderful. I mean, I can tell you, you're missing out on some really lovely stuff. Life enriching.

And I'm eating at least as much as before, if not more.

If you believe a plant-based diet is truly limiting then you should give it a go. You might be surprised. I certainly was.

rick_chasey · January 2018

Has to be, by definition!

drlodge · January 2018

If animals are well looked after then they have a positive life experience...their death takes something away from that as they're killed earlier than they otherwise would be, but still, they have a net positive life experience.

If we all went Vegan then many many animals would be prevented from having this positive life experience, which is of detriment to the animals. So being a Vegan is actually worse for the animals!

pblakeney · January 2018

Popcorn. That's vegan right? The one without butter? Plenty to be used here.
Relish a challenge? I like relish. Does that count as one of my 5 a day?

trek_dan · January 2018

fat daddy wrote:

its a pain in the ars* protecting children against that sort of propaganda ... well, without spreading my own about vegans/vegetarians to balance the argument

Its not propaganda though is it? Animals do feel pain and normal children are no more inclined to kill a cow with a bolt gun then they would be to stab their beloved pet dog in the throat. Bearing in mind childhood is where we form most of our beliefs about what is right or wrong before we've been indoctrinated into certain ways of thinking by society I think its very much fair enough that children should be faced with the truth of where their food comes from.

joenobody · January 2018

Rick Chasey wrote:

Has to be, by definition!

So you don't know? Or don't want to say? What balance does meat, dairy or eggs add? What am I missing out on by not eating them? Nutritionally there isn't anything, besides B12 as I mentioned. A balanced diet is not about what foods I eat, but what nutrients those foods provide. There is a misheld belief that meat and dairy in particular provide nutrients that plants cannot. It's just not true.

fat daddy · January 2018

trek_dan wrote:

fat daddy wrote:

its a pain in the ars* protecting children against that sort of propaganda ... well, without spreading my own about vegans/vegetarians to balance the argument

Its not propaganda though is it?
.

Its 100% propaganda

"presenting facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis or perception, or using loaded language to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information that is presented."

Its not delivered as a balanced informercial, its designed to prey on the vulnerability of children and the weak "they trust us, we take them from there mothers and butcher them" My child knows where meat comes from, she knows we eat animals, I don't sell it to here though by showing her the cutest animal possible then telling her I will take it away from its mummy and its going to cry and then I am going to shoot a bolt through its head :roll: .. oh look she is traumatised

Its propaganda

rick_chasey · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Has to be, by definition!

So you don't know? Or don't want to say? What balance does meat, dairy or eggs add? What am I missing out on by not eating them? Nutritionally there isn't anything, besides B12 as I mentioned. A balanced diet is not about what foods I eat, but what nutrients those foods provide. There is a misheld belief that meat and dairy in particular provide nutrients that plants cannot. It's just not true.

By definition, veganism is limiting.

By definition, veganism isn't balanced, since there's a whole food group you don't eat.

rjsterry · January 2018

Rick Chasey wrote:

JoeNobody wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Has to be, by definition!

So you don't know? Or don't want to say? What balance does meat, dairy or eggs add? What am I missing out on by not eating them? Nutritionally there isn't anything, besides B12 as I mentioned. A balanced diet is not about what foods I eat, but what nutrients those foods provide. There is a misheld belief that meat and dairy in particular provide nutrients that plants cannot. It's just not true.

By definition, veganism is limiting.

By definition, veganism isn't balanced, since there's a whole food group you don't eat.

It's a whole food group, but it's a pretty small number of species compared with the number of plant based foods there are. Sure, on a technical point, vegetables only is a smaller list than vegetables + animals, but it's not really a practical restriction.

joenobody · January 2018

fat daddy wrote:

Its not delivered as a balanced informercial, its designed to prey on the vulnerability of children and the weak "they trust us, we take them from there mothers and butcher them" My child knows where meat comes from, she knows we eat animals, I don't sell it to here though by showing her the cutest animal possible then telling her I will take it away from its mummy and its going to cry and then I am going to shoot a bolt through its head :roll: .. oh look she is traumatised

Again I'll ask my question, are you suggesting that only strong people will be able to resist the desire to stop unnecessarily killing animals for our own gain? This wouldn't be my approach, but some people really don't understand route an animal takes between "where it comes from" and their plate, and the shock approach can open their eyes to that.

trek_dan · January 2018

fat daddy wrote:

trek_dan wrote:

fat daddy wrote:

its a pain in the ars* protecting children against that sort of propaganda ... well, without spreading my own about vegans/vegetarians to balance the argument

Its not propaganda though is it?
.

Its 100% propaganda

"presenting facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis or perception, or using loaded language to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information that is presented."

Its not delivered as a balanced informercial, its designed to prey on the vulnerability of children and the weak "they trust us, we take them from there mothers and butcher them" My child knows where meat comes from, she knows we eat animals, I don't sell it to here though by showing her the cutest animal possible then telling her I will take it away from its mummy and its going to cry and then I am going to shoot a bolt through its head :roll: .. oh look she is traumatised

Its propaganda

So you hide the actual facts (that cute animals die so she can have her beef burgers) from her to protect your own agenda that eating meat is ok? I think that is propaganda

TheBigBean · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Has to be, by definition!

So you don't know? Or don't want to say? What balance does meat, dairy or eggs add? What am I missing out on by not eating them? Nutritionally there isn't anything, besides B12 as I mentioned. A balanced diet is not about what foods I eat, but what nutrients those foods provide. There is a misheld belief that meat and dairy in particular provide nutrients that plants cannot. It's just not true.

You can have a balanced diet, but it is harder to achieve it. In the same way, you can have extremely tasty vegan food, but it is also harder to achieve it. I would never criticise your choice unless it had an impact on me.

joenobody · January 2018

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

By definition, veganism is limiting.

By definition, veganism isn't balanced, since there's a whole food group you don't eat.

It's a whole food group, but it's a pretty small number of species compared with the number of plant based foods there are. Sure, on a technical point, vegetables only is a smaller list than vegetables + animals, but it's not really a practical restriction.

Precisely. And eating a balance of all food groups is not the same as eating a balanced diet. I've just replaced the meat, etc with plant-based food sources that provide the same nutrients. Meat eaters are generally self-limiting too though, as not all animals are considered to be suitable sources of meat. I'm eating things now that I would never have eaten before going vegan. All I've really done is changed where my limits lie.

TheBigBean · January 2018

JoeNobody wrote:

Meat eaters are generally self-limiting too though, as not all animals are considered to be suitable sources of meat.

Any largish herbivore. Any exception to that?

joenobody · January 2018

TheBigBean wrote:

You can have a balanced diet, but it is harder to achieve it. In the same way, you can have extremely tasty vegan food, but it is also harder to achieve it. I would never criticise your choice unless it had an impact on me.

Have you actually tried it? It's not really all that much harder. Certainly I've found it easier than I thought I would. The hardest part is looking out for animal products in food you wouldn't expect to find them. Like milk in salt & vinegar crisps!! Why is that necessary?

fat daddy · January 2018

trek_dan wrote:

So you hide the actual facts (that cute animals die so she can have her beef burgers) from her to protect your own agenda that eating meat is ok? I think that is propaganda

I leave out the emotion, I dont hide the facts, she knows animals die so we can eat them, she knows we dont buy the cheap chicken and eggs because they abuse the animals

your propaganda though does leave out the facts and only uses emotion to try to get its point across .... makes you wonder why it cant just use the facts doesnt it ??

rick_chasey · January 2018

TheBigBean wrote:

JoeNobody wrote:

Meat eaters are generally self-limiting too though, as not all animals are considered to be suitable sources of meat.

Any largish herbivore. Any exception to that?

Fish?

Veganism

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