Get Moscon out

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Comments

  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    Vino'sGhost wrote:

    I think you’re so behind the times, racism is now a long way behind sexual predation real or imagined so if you need to get on your high horse about something that’s the bandwagon to get on.

    But sexual predation isn't the issue here, racism is.

    It's laughable that in another thread there is a discussion on how to increase the interest and reach in the sport yet it seems people on here are happy for racial prejudice to exist or at least be pretty much tolerated in pro cycling.

    It might not cause physical injury but it causes irreparable emotional damage and incites hatred. And that cannot and must not be tolerated.
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    redvision wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Now I'm not black, but if I was given the choice of being punched in the face or called a
    , I think I'd choose the racial slur every time.

    I'm sorry but racial abuse is far worse than being punched. There is no excuse for it and it should not be tolerated.

    Oh and deliberately pushing another rider off their bike mid race is arguably the worst offence a pro cyclist could commit and imo deserves a very lengthy ban.


    So one form of assault is worse than racial abuse but the other isn't? That's, of course, taking into account that being punched can cause light to serious damage but so can being pushed off your bike.

    Physical assault is definitely worse than insult. If you've been subject to both being punched and racial abuse then perhaps you can explain why the abuse was worse?

    And what if a rider punched another and he fell off his bike? :D
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,535
    redvision wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:

    I think you’re so behind the times, racism is now a long way behind sexual predation real or imagined so if you need to get on your high horse about something that’s the bandwagon to get on.

    But sexual predation isn't the issue here, racism is.

    It's laughable that in another thread there is a discussion on how to increase the interest and reach in the sport yet it seems people on here are happy for racial prejudice to exist or at least be pretty much tolerated in pro cycling.

    It might not cause physical injury but it causes irreparable emotional damage and incites hatred. And that cannot and must not be tolerated.
    +1
    It's a form of psychological violence
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    nickice wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Now I'm not black, but if I was given the choice of being punched in the face or called a
    , I think I'd choose the racial slur every time.

    I'm sorry but racial abuse is far worse than being punched. There is no excuse for it and it should not be tolerated.

    Oh and deliberately pushing another rider off their bike mid race is arguably the worst offence a pro cyclist could commit and imo deserves a very lengthy ban.


    So one form of assault is worse than racial abuse but the other isn't? That's, of course, taking into account that being punched can cause light to serious damage but so can being pushed off your bike.

    Physical assault is definitely worse than insult. If you've been subject to both being punched and racial abuse then perhaps you can explain why the abuse was worse?

    And what if a rider punched another and he fell off his bike? :D

    People fight and punches will always be thrown at some point in life. But pushing a rider off a bike is not only a serious assault and likely to cause significant injury, it could also destroy the victims career.

    I stand by my view that racism must not be tolerated.
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    redvision wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:

    I think you’re so behind the times, racism is now a long way behind sexual predation real or imagined so if you need to get on your high horse about something that’s the bandwagon to get on.

    But sexual predation isn't the issue here, racism is.

    It's laughable that in another thread there is a discussion on how to increase the interest and reach in the sport yet it seems people on here are happy for racial prejudice to exist or at least be pretty much tolerated in pro cycling.

    It might not cause physical injury but it causes irreparable emotional damage and incites hatred. And that cannot and must not be tolerated.


    I don't think anyone's happy with racist abuse, I'm personally just not convinced that Moscon deserves any further punishment. As for 'irreparable emotional damage', that's just too vague I'm afraid (especially considering that such damage could be caused by a wide variety of things such as non-racist abuse)

    And, seriously, if you racially abuse someone, you're not inciting hatred. To do that, you would have to encourage others to do so. If Moscon started doing that, then I'd be happy for the UCI to throw the book at him (though I strongly disagree with national, criminal hate-speech laws) as I think it's a reasonable rule for an organisation to have.
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    redvision wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Now I'm not black, but if I was given the choice of being punched in the face or called a
    , I think I'd choose the racial slur every time.

    I'm sorry but racial abuse is far worse than being punched. There is no excuse for it and it should not be tolerated.

    Oh and deliberately pushing another rider off their bike mid race is arguably the worst offence a pro cyclist could commit and imo deserves a very lengthy ban.


    So one form of assault is worse than racial abuse but the other isn't? That's, of course, taking into account that being punched can cause light to serious damage but so can being pushed off your bike.

    Physical assault is definitely worse than insult. If you've been subject to both being punched and racial abuse then perhaps you can explain why the abuse was worse?

    And what if a rider punched another and he fell off his bike? :D

    People fight and punches will always be thrown at some point in life. But pushing a rider off a bike is not only a serious assault and likely to cause significant injury, it could also destroy the victims career.

    I stand by my view that racism must not be tolerated.

    You can't just dismiss punches as a 'that's life' kind of thing but be really severe on pushing someone off a bike. And, is it really always likely to cause significant injury? I doubt that. 9/10 we see riders riding aways from crashes at significant speeds. In any event, punches can also cause significant injury: death as the result of one punch (especially as a result falling back onto concrete) is more common than people think.

    That's not forgetting that Grivko punched Kittel while he was on the bike. There was a fair chance it would have taken him down. Grivko was so reckless that it doesn't matter whether it was a punch or a push.


    And if you want heavy bans for racist abuse, what would be your stance on other forms of abuse?
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,398
    redvision wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:

    I think you’re so behind the times, racism is now a long way behind sexual predation real or imagined so if you need to get on your high horse about something that’s the bandwagon to get on.

    But sexual predation isn't the issue here, racism is.

    It's laughable that in another thread there is a discussion on how to increase the interest and reach in the sport yet it seems people on here are happy for racial prejudice to exist or at least be pretty much tolerated in pro cycling.

    It might not cause physical injury but it causes irreparable emotional damage and incites hatred. And that cannot and must not be tolerated.

    Some people maybe...
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    nickice wrote:
    And, seriously, if you racially abuse someone, you're not inciting hatred.

    Any type of racial abuse incites racial hatred.
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    redvision wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    And, seriously, if you racially abuse someone, you're not inciting hatred.

    Any type of racial abuse incites racial hatred.


    Not if you understand the meaning of the word 'incitement'. Imagine that, you racially abuse a black person but nobody else is around. You can't be inciting anyone. Even if someone is around it's not incitement.
  • Richmond Racer 2
    Richmond Racer 2 Posts: 4,698
    RichN95 wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    Didn't he apologise for the racist taunt and the apology was accepted? Very ignorant, but no need to take that any further. Pushing someone off is a far worse offence.

    There was every need to take that further, sadly the UCI bottled it and just confirmed the Sky imposed suspension that conveniently covered a period when he was unlikely to be racing anyway.

    A longer ban should've been imposed, racism should not be tolerated in the sport and I think a minimum of a six month suspension was needed.
    Sky suspended him for about the same amount of time the UCI had just suspended Grivko for punching Kittel in face. Now I'm not black, but if I was given the choice of being punched in the face or called a
    , I think I'd choose the racial slur every time.



    And there’s your white privilege speaking. Right there.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Richmond Racer 2 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    Didn't he apologise for the racist taunt and the apology was accepted? Very ignorant, but no need to take that any further. Pushing someone off is a far worse offence.

    There was every need to take that further, sadly the UCI bottled it and just confirmed the Sky imposed suspension that conveniently covered a period when he was unlikely to be racing anyway.

    A longer ban should've been imposed, racism should not be tolerated in the sport and I think a minimum of a six month suspension was needed.
    Sky suspended him for about the same amount of time the UCI had just suspended Grivko for punching Kittel in face. Now I'm not black, but if I was given the choice of being punched in the face or called a
    , I think I'd choose the racial slur every time.



    And there’s your white privilege speaking. Right there.
    No it’s the experience of having been punched in the face speaking.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,701
    RichN95 wrote:
    Richmond Racer 2 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    Didn't he apologise for the racist taunt and the apology was accepted? Very ignorant, but no need to take that any further. Pushing someone off is a far worse offence.

    There was every need to take that further, sadly the UCI bottled it and just confirmed the Sky imposed suspension that conveniently covered a period when he was unlikely to be racing anyway.

    A longer ban should've been imposed, racism should not be tolerated in the sport and I think a minimum of a six month suspension was needed.
    Sky suspended him for about the same amount of time the UCI had just suspended Grivko for punching Kittel in face. Now I'm not black, but if I was given the choice of being punched in the face or called a
    , I think I'd choose the racial slur every time.



    And there’s your white privilege speaking. Right there.
    No it’s the experience of having been punched in the face speaking.

    Dead right.
    I've found myself in a situation where I experienced a heap of the former, but was damned relieved it didn't escalate to the latter, as I'd feared.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Richmond Racer 2
    Richmond Racer 2 Posts: 4,698
    RichN95 wrote:
    Richmond Racer 2 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    Didn't he apologise for the racist taunt and the apology was accepted? Very ignorant, but no need to take that any further. Pushing someone off is a far worse offence.

    There was every need to take that further, sadly the UCI bottled it and just confirmed the Sky imposed suspension that conveniently covered a period when he was unlikely to be racing anyway.

    A longer ban should've been imposed, racism should not be tolerated in the sport and I think a minimum of a six month suspension was needed.
    Sky suspended him for about the same amount of time the UCI had just suspended Grivko for punching Kittel in face. Now I'm not black, but if I was given the choice of being punched in the face or called a
    , I think I'd choose the racial slur every time.



    And there’s your white privilege speaking. Right there.
    No it’s the experience of having been punched in the face speaking.


    vs your considerable experience of being on the receiving end of a racist slur.

    Right. Gotcha.
  • nickice
    nickice Posts: 2,439
    Richmond Racer 2 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    Didn't he apologise for the racist taunt and the apology was accepted? Very ignorant, but no need to take that any further. Pushing someone off is a far worse offence.

    There was every need to take that further, sadly the UCI bottled it and just confirmed the Sky imposed suspension that conveniently covered a period when he was unlikely to be racing anyway.

    A longer ban should've been imposed, racism should not be tolerated in the sport and I think a minimum of a six month suspension was needed.
    Sky suspended him for about the same amount of time the UCI had just suspended Grivko for punching Kittel in face. Now I'm not black, but if I was given the choice of being punched in the face or called a
    , I think I'd choose the racial slur every time.



    And there’s your white privilege speaking. Right there.


    I don't advocate banning words but the meaningless 'white privilege', 'check your privilege' nonsense would be near the top of my hypothetical list.

    I don't know what your race or ethnicity is but I'd like to actually see a poll of black people, for example and ask them the question 'Would you rather be racially abused/insulted or punched in the face'? Maybe we could ask Kevin Reza what he would have preferred?
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    redvision wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:

    I think you’re so behind the times, racism is now a long way behind sexual predation real or imagined so if you need to get on your high horse about something that’s the bandwagon to get on.

    But sexual predation isn't the issue here, racism is.

    It's laughable that in another thread there is a discussion on how to increase the interest and reach in the sport yet it seems people on here are happy for racial prejudice to exist or at least be pretty much tolerated in pro cycling.

    It might not cause physical injury but it causes irreparable emotional damage and incites hatred. And that cannot and must not be tolerated.

    Stop preaching we all get it ok. What I don’t like is holier than though lessons from on high by muppets
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,625
    nickice wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:

    I think you’re so behind the times, racism is now a long way behind sexual predation real or imagined so if you need to get on your high horse about something that’s the bandwagon to get on.

    But sexual predation isn't the issue here, racism is.

    It's laughable that in another thread there is a discussion on how to increase the interest and reach in the sport yet it seems people on here are happy for racial prejudice to exist or at least be pretty much tolerated in pro cycling.

    It might not cause physical injury but it causes irreparable emotional damage and incites hatred. And that cannot and must not be tolerated.


    I don't think anyone's happy with racist abuse, I'm personally just not convinced that Moscon deserves any further punishment. As for 'irreparable emotional damage', that's just too vague I'm afraid (especially considering that such damage could be caused by a wide variety of things such as non-racist abuse)

    And, seriously, if you racially abuse someone, you're not inciting hatred. To do that, you would have to encourage others to do so. If Moscon started doing that, then I'd be happy for the UCI to throw the book at him (though I strongly disagree with national, criminal hate-speech laws) as I think it's a reasonable rule for an organisation to have.

    You do seem rather an expert on precisely where the line lies.

    Do you spend a lot of time sailing very close to that line?
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,625
    Vino'sGhost wrote:

    Stop preaching we all get it ok. What I don’t like is holier than though lessons from on high by muppets

    Not sure you do mate, tbh.

    What if the people giving you lessons are 'holier' hmm?
    _
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:

    I think you’re so behind the times, racism is now a long way behind sexual predation real or imagined so if you need to get on your high horse about something that’s the bandwagon to get on.

    But sexual predation isn't the issue here, racism is.

    It's laughable that in another thread there is a discussion on how to increase the interest and reach in the sport yet it seems people on here are happy for racial prejudice to exist or at least be pretty much tolerated in pro cycling.

    It might not cause physical injury but it causes irreparable emotional damage and incites hatred. And that cannot and must not be tolerated.

    Stop preaching we all get it ok. What I don’t like is holier than though lessons from on high by muppets

    Couldn't care less if you think it's preaching tbh.

    And personally I think muppets are people who believe the problem will go away on its own and who criticise those trying to fight racism.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,625
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Lets hope the uci doesnt join the shameful “virtue signalling” band wagon.

    Wroooong end of the stick.
    _
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:

    Stop preaching we all get it ok. What I don’t like is holier than though lessons from on high by muppets

    Not sure you do mate, tbh.

    What if the people giving you lessons are 'holier' hmm?

    I do get it I just don’t feel it neccscarry to signal virtue and as for people who consider themselves to be of sufficient moral standing to lecture others, it’s just their opinion. I don’t agree with it nor those tedious people who believe otherwise.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,625
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:

    Stop preaching we all get it ok. What I don’t like is holier than though lessons from on high by muppets

    Not sure you do mate, tbh.

    What if the people giving you lessons are 'holier' hmm?

    I do get it I just don’t feel it neccscarry to signal virtue and as for people who consider themselves to be of sufficient moral standing to lecture others, it’s just their opinion. I don’t agree with it nor those tedious people who believe otherwise.

    We all think our opinions are better than others.

    People who complain others at holier than thou only do so because those people make them feel they’re wrong.

    Sometimes you are wrong.

    Though how you think the UCI is virtue signalling on this is beyond me.
    _
  • Bo Duke
    Bo Duke Posts: 1,058
    Good to see the moral control freaks are stamping their authority on this discussion by telling everyone they're wrong.

    Let's not tolerate different opinions lads, Little England likes conformity.
    'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP
  • kleinstroker
    kleinstroker Posts: 2,133
    Well I am keeping him in my team as he is a great cyclist and exciting to watch. Big fuss about nothing
  • Richmond Racer 2
    Richmond Racer 2 Posts: 4,698
    kleinstroker wrote:
    Well I am keeping him in my team as he is a great cyclist and exciting to watch. Big fuss about nothing


    'He earns me PTP points and that's that!' *tongue slightly in cheek*
  • kleinstroker
    kleinstroker Posts: 2,133
    Is he even in the top 10 Bad Boys of Cycling?
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,756
    kleinstroker wrote:
    Is he even in the top 10 Bad Boys of Cycling?

    I had a fantasy team last year consisting purely of riders who had served a suspension or been kicked off a race etc. He'll be a valuable addition to this year's Bad Boys team, replacing one of the retirees. One decision to go their way and they could be up for a big year.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    kleinstroker wrote:
    Is he even in the top 10 Bad Boys of Cycling?

    I had a fantasy team last year consisting purely of riders who had served a suspension or been kicked off a race etc. He'll be a valuable addition to this year's Bad Boys team, replacing one of the retirees. One decision to go their way and they could be up for a big year.
    If that last sentence is a reference to Froome, then surely he's already eligible having been DQed from the 2010 Giro.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,625
    https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/201 ... trous-men/

    Broadly relevant.
    _
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,756
    RichN95 wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    kleinstroker wrote:
    Is he even in the top 10 Bad Boys of Cycling?

    I had a fantasy team last year consisting purely of riders who had served a suspension or been kicked off a race etc. He'll be a valuable addition to this year's Bad Boys team, replacing one of the retirees. One decision to go their way and they could be up for a big year.
    If that last sentence is a reference to Froome, then surely he's already eligible having been DQed from the 2010 Giro.

    I forgot that - Nibali style.

    To be fair, the others would view him as a lightweight. They all hit someone or got done for drugs.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2017/11/20/art-monstrous-men/

    Broadly relevant.
    The article includes the person I am unfortunately named after

    It's interesting that with all this abuse stuff going on elsewhere the Peter Sagan podium girl incident seems to have been banished to the backs of most people's memory.
    Twitter: @RichN95

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