Vuelta 2017:Stage 17: Villadiego - Los Machucos. Monumento Vaca Pasiega 180.5KM *Spoilers*

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Ultimately, to win the this race, Nibali has to do the same again. Twice

yeah... be nice if he did tho!

Would it? Nibali seems a bit of a dick

I forgot, I takes the smart guy to spot the dick.

People spotted you back when you posted as Teagar

rick_chasey

rick_chasey

mididoctors

RichN95 wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

meh... and of course only nice guys try to drop their team leader...

But come on... for the sport, wouldn't it be better if this Vuelta resulted in Nibali rather than Froome getting a fifth GT?

No. I think a Tour de France winner going on to win the Vuelta is better for the sport. It's not only a big historic achievement, it encourages more people to ride both for GC. Remember before Froome, Carlos Sastre was the only Tour winner ever to ride the Vuelta afterwards.

this basically

its a good race having the tour guys here...chance of payback in there too..or fading al la bardet ...who went wayyyyyyyyy deep in the tour.

Vino'sGhost

proper race this Vuelta.

Go Contador!

Froome looked wasted

dish_dash

mididoctors wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

meh... and of course only nice guys try to drop their team leader...

But come on... for the sport, wouldn't it be better if this Vuelta resulted in Nibali rather than Froome getting a fifth GT?

No. I think a Tour de France winner going on to win the Vuelta is better for the sport. It's not only a big historic achievement, it encourages more people to ride both for GC. Remember before Froome, Carlos Sastre was the only Tour winner ever to ride the Vuelta afterwards.

this basically

its a good race having the tour guys here...chance of payback in there too..or fading al la bardet ...who went wayyyyyyyyy deep in the tour.

Doesn't do much for the doping shadow over cycling for Froome to do the two on the trot. Esp with his back story.

Nibs winning makes him a more rounded rider.

RichN95.

dish_dash wrote:

Doesn't do much for the doping shadow over cycling for Froome to do the two on the trot. Esp with his back story.

And I suppose Nibali being led up climbs by a 39 year old Franco Pelizotti is a better look for the sport.

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

Doesn't do much for the doping shadow over cycling for Froome to do the two on the trot. Esp with his back story.

And I suppose Nibali being led up climbs by a 39 year old Franco Pelizotti is a better look for the sport.

Because Froome hasn't finished 2nd in the Vuelta before? Why would winning be such a stretch?

If he finished second again by 20s would it shorten that doping shadow?

type:epyt

I'm guessing dish_dash is a Wigginsw@nker ...

r0bh

dish_dash wrote:

Doesn't do much for the doping shadow over cycling for Froome to do the two on the trot. Esp with his back story.

If Froome had romped away with the Tour and the Vuelta you might have a point, but he didn't and he isn't.

salsiccia1

dish_dash wrote:

Doesn't do much for the doping shadow over cycling for Froome to do the two on the trot. Esp with his back story.

What doping shadow? The one insisted upon by the clinic (who can't decide whether he dopes, has a hidden motor or both despite there not being any evidence for either) or the one that comes from being on the same team as the one where the doctor provided dodgy TUEs and jiffy bags for someone else?

I've always said I'd never put my house on anyone being clean, but if Froome is on it then he won't be alone.

Disclaimer: I do like Froome, but I hope I'm pretty objective and not stupidly naive

rick_chasey

Love how protective people get over Froome.

ContrelaMontre

Vai Enzo

davidof

yourpaceormine wrote:

Crazy mad road.
Great win for Aqua Blue.
Bertie motopaced up that climb - s'pose inevitable as it is Spain (Robert Millar being misdirected so he didn't win the stage and probably the race).

My memory was that Millar was misdirected by a French gendarme in the 1988 Tour de France in the Pyrenees to Guzet Neige. In the '85 Vuelta he got worked over by the Spanish riders.

davidof

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Never mind all that, why is there a monument to a cow on the top of a mountain?

I can't tell you that but the cow is a Vaca Pasiega which is a very rare native Spanish dairy cow. Indeed the only native dairy cow that still exists. Long believed to be extinct a herd of the cows was found in the Cantabria uplands in 2004. I guess the monument marks where the herd was discovered, but that is just a guess.

salsiccia1

I'm going to say it, and I know it's not going to be popular: this climb shouldn't be in a top level bike race. The surface, gradient and narrowness make it ridiculous. There were motos falling all over the place due to the gradient, then getting in the way on the little downhill bit which was really narrow.

I don't mind steep climbs but all of the factors combined make it something that I don't think the riders should be put through.

blazing_saddles

Rick Chasey wrote:

Love how protective people get over Froome.

It's not being protective of Froome, but even handed.
If other riders have proven "doping shadows" that never get a mention, why should he?

type:epyt

Salsiccia1 wrote:

I'm going to say it, and I know it's not going to be popular: this climb shouldn't be in a top level bike race. The surface, gradient and narrowness make it ridiculous. There were motos falling all over the place due to the gradient, then getting in the way on the little downhill bit which was really narrow.

I don't mind steep climbs but all of the factors combined make it something that I don't think the riders should be put through.

Utter nonsense ... you and I could grind our way up there, so the pros can race it ...

I'd advocate a shorter overall stage to encourage racing rather than survival, but these climbs are what makes the race ...

The guy that has bossed the tour since 2012 (ish) has to 'win' the GT, not just turn up (as several previous editions have shown) ... Look at Doumulin in the Giro ... hanging on for dear life but almost everyone agreed he was the worthy winner ...

r0bh

type:epyt wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

I'm going to say it, and I know it's not going to be popular: this climb shouldn't be in a top level bike race. The surface, gradient and narrowness make it ridiculous. There were motos falling all over the place due to the gradient, then getting in the way on the little downhill bit which was really narrow.

I don't mind steep climbs but all of the factors combined make it something that I don't think the riders should be put through.

Utter nonsense ... you and I could grind our way up there, so the pros can race it ...

I'd advocate a shorter overall stage to encourage racing rather than survival, but these climbs are what makes the race ...

The guy that has bossed the tour since 2012 (ish) has to 'win' the GT, not just turn up (as several previous editions have shown) ... Look at Doumulin in the Giro ... hanging on for dear life but almost everyone agreed he was the worthy winner ...

I think Salsiccia1's point was more about the risk to riders from motos on steep, narrow roads. We saw one stall and crash, and Moscon almost hit another. There are definitely too many motos on the Vuelta, and you could make a good argument that they should be banned or cut to an absolute minimum on a climb like this. Surely not far off that drones could replace motos for this kind of thing.

salsiccia1

type:epyt wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

I'm going to say it, and I know it's not going to be popular: this climb shouldn't be in a top level bike race. The surface, gradient and narrowness make it ridiculous. There were motos falling all over the place due to the gradient, then getting in the way on the little downhill bit which was really narrow.

I don't mind steep climbs but all of the factors combined make it something that I don't think the riders should be put through.

Utter nonsense ... you and I could grind our way up there, so the pros can race it ...

I'd advocate a shorter overall stage to encourage racing rather than survival, but these climbs are what makes the race ...

The guy that has bossed the tour since 2012 (ish) has to 'win' the GT, not just turn up (as several previous editions have shown) ... Look at Doumulin in the Giro ... hanging on for dear life but almost everyone agreed he was the worthy winner ...

I'm not talking about the steepness alone (as I said in my post, which I gather you did read all of), but the combination of steepness along with being narrow and having a bad surface made it ropey for motos and support cars. Add that to mental fans and it is more like an obstacle course for the riders. When we're talking about improving rider safety it's a backward step.

If the riders were to ride it alone it'd be different, of course they could ride it no problem. But no, I couldn't grind my way up it as I haven't touched a bike for over a year. In fact, I'd struggle to walk it...

Edit: r0bh has made my point more eloquently than me.

type:epyt

So nothing to do with the route then? … I'm not here for logistical analysis … I want racing, we got some ... and the Vuelta will give us that ...

It's one thing you can rely in the Spanish races ... Racing ...

knedlicky

inseine wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

Hang on... we got an Aqua Blue on the front? Wow!

Come on Denifl (no, I don't know him either), this is awesome.

As well as what Sean Kelly kept saying (that Denifl won the Tour of Austria this year), Denifl won the mountain jersey at the Tour of Switzerland about 2 years ago, so he’s not a complete unknown.
In Austria this year he took over the leader‘s jersey when he finished second to Lopez on the stage up the Kitzbüheler Horn, 7.5 k @ 12.5% average, sections at 22.3%, so today’s finish probably suited him.

And for those interested in other stuff, Carlton Kirby today said the Aqua-Blue team had been in a normal coach since their team bus was set on fire, but this isn’t true - on Saturday the team acquired another team bus with showers, etc.
And Denifl‘s partner Melanie is the sister-in-law of former rider Georg Totschnig (best ever GT placing = 5th in Giro 2003)

RichN95.

type:epyt wrote:

So nothing to do with the route then? … I'm not here for logistical analysis … I want racing, we got some ... and the Vuelta will give us that ...

It's one thing you can rely in the Spanish races ... Racing ...

But if one of the motorbikes that toppled over had been a camera bike, you would have got nothing.

Pross

I actually didn't think today's climb was that good. I was looking forward to it but the really steep sections seemed quite short and the riders didn't seem yo struggle like they do on the Angliru.

knedlicky

r0bh wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

I'm going to say it, and I know it's not going to be popular: this climb shouldn't be in a top level bike race. The surface, gradient and narrowness make it ridiculous. There were motos falling all over the place due to the gradient, then getting in the way on the little downhill bit which was really narrow.
I don't mind steep climbs but all of the factors combined make it something that I don't think the riders should be put through.

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Add that to mental fans

Surely not far off that drones could replace motos for this kind of thing.

I don’t think the route was wrong in terms of surface, gradient or narrowness (the moto problems had to do with drivers, not surface, and I doubt there are more motos in the Vuelta than in the TdF) and there weren’t really that many fans compared to some TdF stages.
However, I like the idea of drones instead of motos and I wonder how feasible it is.

knedlicky

Pross wrote:

I actually didn't think today's climb was that good. I was looking forward to it but the really steep sections seemed quite short and the riders didn't seem yo struggle like they do on the Angliru.

Like Denifl said in his interview, there were less steep sections between the short 'ramps', where one could regenerate. I imagine the 'ramps' were probably shorter than those in some of the Spring classics.

Richmond Racer 2

knedlicky wrote:

r0bh wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

I'm going to say it, and I know it's not going to be popular: this climb shouldn't be in a top level bike race. The surface, gradient and narrowness make it ridiculous. There were motos falling all over the place due to the gradient, then getting in the way on the little downhill bit which was really narrow.
I don't mind steep climbs but all of the factors combined make it something that I don't think the riders should be put through.

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Add that to mental fans

Surely not far off that drones could replace motos for this kind of thing.

I don’t think the route was wrong in terms of surface, gradient or narrowness (the moto problems had to do with drivers, not surface, and I doubt there are more motos in the Vuelta than in the TdF) and there weren’t really that many fans compared to some TdF stages.
However, I like the idea of drones instead of motos and I wonder how feasible it is.

Issues with drones inc notoriously short battery life (30 mins), rubbish in heavily wooded areas, risk of drones falling, best way of them being operated tracking a fast moving event over long distances

dish_dash

Rick Chasey wrote:

Love how protective people get over Froome.

Indeed

knedlicky

RichN95 wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

meh... and of course only nice guys try to drop their team leader...
But come on... for the sport, wouldn't it be better if this Vuelta resulted in Nibali rather than Froome getting a fifth GT?

No. I think a Tour de France winner going on to win the Vuelta is better for the sport. It's not only a big historic achievement, it encourages more people to ride both for GC. Remember before Froome, Carlos Sastre was the only Tour winner ever to ride the Vuelta afterwards.

If talking of the sport on the whole and not just for the UK, I think a Nibali victory would be better because it would again show that the cycling equivalent of Mourinho-Chelsea tactics aren‘t always successful nor that the team with the most financial clout always wins.

Diversity in who wins is always better for any sport, and also at any level. It doesn’t mean the main contender field is any less but it shows anything is possible. That is more an incentive than always seeing the same person win.
On this forum, because so many people seem to dislike Nibali, a Kelderman win might be more acceptable, also a good incentive to younger professionals.

Publically-viewed sport is a form of entertainment, not just a case of proving who’s the strongest/best tactically, and Nibali, moreso Contador, and all those riders who succeed (or almost) in their breaks, entertain much more than Froome. I know Froome can't behave like Merckx did sometimes, times are different, but Froome's riding is not a good example for flair, initiative, or inspiration. The only admirable things about him are his dogged determination, and his ambition.

Anyway, I don’t really understand this wish to win the Tour then the Vuelta. Is it that special? One could have done this years ago in reverse order (I don’t know if anyone did – Hinault perhaps?).
And one can still win the Giro then the Tour, which is probably the greater achievement.

bobmcstuff

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

r0bh wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

I'm going to say it, and I know it's not going to be popular: this climb shouldn't be in a top level bike race. The surface, gradient and narrowness make it ridiculous. There were motos falling all over the place due to the gradient, then getting in the way on the little downhill bit which was really narrow.
I don't mind steep climbs but all of the factors combined make it something that I don't think the riders should be put through.

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Add that to mental fans

Surely not far off that drones could replace motos for this kind of thing.

I don’t think the route was wrong in terms of surface, gradient or narrowness (the moto problems had to do with drivers, not surface, and I doubt there are more motos in the Vuelta than in the TdF) and there weren’t really that many fans compared to some TdF stages.
However, I like the idea of drones instead of motos and I wonder how feasible it is.

Issues with drones inc notoriously short battery life (30 mins), rubbish in heavily wooded areas, risk of drones falling, best way of them being operated tracking a fast moving event over long distances

Key term there in r0bh's post is "not far off" - think how much consumer drones have improved even in the last couple of years.

Clearly there are some issues still which make them difficult to use but looking at the rate of improvement (battery life/controls etc) it might only be a couple of years or so when they become a reasonable option. There's some drones around today which do a passable job of "follow-me" tracking.