Poo tin... Put@in...

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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,503
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pinno said:

    To a degree, NATO is already fighting a war by proxy.
    However, if they (we) provide enough weaponry, the Russians will get worn down and eventually have to capitulate.
    That would be a lengthy game which would be in the West's interest but would cost a lot of lives.

    No, this is a proxy war.

    Agree it will b long as we are eight years in and probably not half way.

    I'm a bit sceptical of this 'great power' narrative that this is a proxy war between two great powers.

    I don't think it is. I think it is a spillover from Russia's failed attempt to rid itself of tyranny post-soviet collapse, and the fact Ukraine has carved itself out a proper national identity.

    Not least that Russia is not a great power. It's spending on the military is roughly the same as the UK.
    maybe we are disagreeing with what a proxy war is but to me the West is using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
    To what end?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    pinno said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pinno said:

    To a degree, NATO is already fighting a war by proxy.
    However, if they (we) provide enough weaponry, the Russians will get worn down and eventually have to capitulate.
    That would be a lengthy game which would be in the West's interest but would cost a lot of lives.

    No, this is a proxy war.

    Agree it will b long as we are eight years in and probably not half way.

    I'm a bit sceptical of this 'great power' narrative that this is a proxy war between two great powers.

    I don't think it is. I think it is a spillover from Russia's failed attempt to rid itself of tyranny post-soviet collapse, and the fact Ukraine has carved itself out a proper national identity.

    Not least that Russia is not a great power. It's spending on the military is roughly the same as the UK.
    maybe we are disagreeing with what a proxy war is but to me the West is using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
    This ^.
    It's what I said.
    Specifically, it doesn't meet the definition of a proxy war. A proxy war is when both sides are being directed and supported by third parties.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,095
    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pinno said:

    To a degree, NATO is already fighting a war by proxy.
    However, if they (we) provide enough weaponry, the Russians will get worn down and eventually have to capitulate.
    That would be a lengthy game which would be in the West's interest but would cost a lot of lives.

    No, this is a proxy war.

    Agree it will b long as we are eight years in and probably not half way.

    I'm a bit sceptical of this 'great power' narrative that this is a proxy war between two great powers.

    I don't think it is. I think it is a spillover from Russia's failed attempt to rid itself of tyranny post-soviet collapse, and the fact Ukraine has carved itself out a proper national identity.

    Not least that Russia is not a great power. It's spending on the military is roughly the same as the UK.
    maybe we are disagreeing with what a proxy war is but to me the West is using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
    To what end?
    To make it impossible for the empire building to attempt to go any further. A Russia that walks in and takes over Ukraine with its army intact is not great news for the rest of Europe.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,095
    imposter2.0 said:

    pinno said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pinno said:

    To a degree, NATO is already fighting a war by proxy.
    However, if they (we) provide enough weaponry, the Russians will get worn down and eventually have to capitulate.
    That would be a lengthy game which would be in the West's interest but would cost a lot of lives.

    No, this is a proxy war.

    Agree it will b long as we are eight years in and probably not half way.

    I'm a bit sceptical of this 'great power' narrative that this is a proxy war between two great powers.

    I don't think it is. I think it is a spillover from Russia's failed attempt to rid itself of tyranny post-soviet collapse, and the fact Ukraine has carved itself out a proper national identity.

    Not least that Russia is not a great power. It's spending on the military is roughly the same as the UK.
    maybe we are disagreeing with what a proxy war is but to me the West is using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
    This ^.
    It's what I said.
    Specifically, it doesn't meet the definition of a proxy war. A proxy war is when both sides are being directed and supported by third parties.
    Is that true? Was the USA not involved in a proxy war with Soviet Union forces in Afghanistan?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pinno said:

    To a degree, NATO is already fighting a war by proxy.
    However, if they (we) provide enough weaponry, the Russians will get worn down and eventually have to capitulate.
    That would be a lengthy game which would be in the West's interest but would cost a lot of lives.

    No, this is a proxy war.

    Agree it will b long as we are eight years in and probably not half way.

    I'm a bit sceptical of this 'great power' narrative that this is a proxy war between two great powers.

    I don't think it is. I think it is a spillover from Russia's failed attempt to rid itself of tyranny post-soviet collapse, and the fact Ukraine has carved itself out a proper national identity.

    Not least that Russia is not a great power. It's spending on the military is roughly the same as the UK.
    maybe we are disagreeing with what a proxy war is but to me the West is using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
    In what context?

    This isn't a big ideological struggle. This isn't the 20th century. This is one medium sized power invading a small sized power, and a big power (or powers) don't like it so they're chipping in with some minor support.

    The only real ideology here is a belief in the preservation of the self determination of Ukraine, and the west want to offer some support.
    _
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    kingstongraham said:

    imposter2.0 said:

    pinno said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pinno said:

    To a degree, NATO is already fighting a war by proxy.
    However, if they (we) provide enough weaponry, the Russians will get worn down and eventually have to capitulate.
    That would be a lengthy game which would be in the West's interest but would cost a lot of lives.

    No, this is a proxy war.

    Agree it will b long as we are eight years in and probably not half way.

    I'm a bit sceptical of this 'great power' narrative that this is a proxy war between two great powers.

    I don't think it is. I think it is a spillover from Russia's failed attempt to rid itself of tyranny post-soviet collapse, and the fact Ukraine has carved itself out a proper national identity.

    Not least that Russia is not a great power. It's spending on the military is roughly the same as the UK.
    maybe we are disagreeing with what a proxy war is but to me the West is using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
    This ^.
    It's what I said.
    Specifically, it doesn't meet the definition of a proxy war. A proxy war is when both sides are being directed and supported by third parties.
    Is that true? Was the USA not involved in a proxy war with Soviet Union forces in Afghanistan?
    It's true in the sense that it doesn't meet the literal definition of a 'proxy' war. Like I say, a proxy war requires *both* sets of combatants to be directed and supported by third parties.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,275
    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pinno said:

    To a degree, NATO is already fighting a war by proxy.
    However, if they (we) provide enough weaponry, the Russians will get worn down and eventually have to capitulate.
    That would be a lengthy game which would be in the West's interest but would cost a lot of lives.

    No, this is a proxy war.

    Agree it will b long as we are eight years in and probably not half way.

    I'm a bit sceptical of this 'great power' narrative that this is a proxy war between two great powers.

    I don't think it is. I think it is a spillover from Russia's failed attempt to rid itself of tyranny post-soviet collapse, and the fact Ukraine has carved itself out a proper national identity.

    Not least that Russia is not a great power. It's spending on the military is roughly the same as the UK.
    maybe we are disagreeing with what a proxy war is but to me the West is using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
    To what end?
    To stop Russian encroachment/aggression.
    (Sorry, I don't really understand your comment).

    3 weeks ago, they were talking about a 'new world order'.
    What a lovely opportunity to grind the b@stard down.
    The only caveat is that many more lives will be lost if the conflict is perpetuated ad infinitum but that would be in Western interests.
    If the West has Putin by the short n curlies economically, then we can restore some balance. China's global influence has then been diminished a little.
    Also, China has observed a Western response far greater than what Putin or Xingy Pingy probably expected. This may curb their Taiwan aspirations.

    ----------------------------

    Contradictions of what a 'Proxy war' is, is simply pedantry.
    $xbn worth of arms that you do not use your self supplied to another country so they can fight a war is proxy.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,095
    I think what the USA is giving Ukraine is more than "minor support". It's a great big pile of cash and weapons.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,094
    I suppose it depends on how you want to define proxy war. What does the term add beyond saying the USA/West is giving military aid to Ukraine?

    I'd have thought to be meaningful the term proxy war referred to pursuing wider longer standing objectives against another state through a 3rd party conflict. I'm not sure that is the case here - beyond preventing Russian expansion which ok you could say meets that criteria. I don't think there's an agenda beyond the obvious one though.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    pinno said:

    Contradictions of what a 'Proxy war' is, is simply pedantry.
    $xbn worth of arms that you do not use your self supplied to another country so they can fight a war is proxy.

    You can obviously call it a proxy war if you like. But it doesn't alter the fact that it isn't.

    Korea, Suez, Vietnam - all proxy wars. Ukraine - not so much.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,503
    kingstongraham said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    pinno said:

    To a degree, NATO is already fighting a war by proxy.
    However, if they (we) provide enough weaponry, the Russians will get worn down and eventually have to capitulate.
    That would be a lengthy game which would be in the West's interest but would cost a lot of lives.

    No, this is a proxy war.

    Agree it will b long as we are eight years in and probably not half way.

    I'm a bit sceptical of this 'great power' narrative that this is a proxy war between two great powers.

    I don't think it is. I think it is a spillover from Russia's failed attempt to rid itself of tyranny post-soviet collapse, and the fact Ukraine has carved itself out a proper national identity.

    Not least that Russia is not a great power. It's spending on the military is roughly the same as the UK.
    maybe we are disagreeing with what a proxy war is but to me the West is using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
    To what end?
    To make it impossible for the empire building to attempt to go any further. A Russia that walks in and takes over Ukraine with its army intact is not great news for the rest of Europe.
    Kind of. Calling it a proxy war implies that NATO has some reason to attack Russia, but given the performance thus far, why would they bother. Russia clearly couldn't control Ukraine even if it could defeat its military.

    I think it's more of a belated reaction to a problem that has been ongoing since Chechnya, but NATO has let so many things slide that to intervene now perversely makes them seem like the aggressor when that clearly isn't the case. Ukraine wasn't a threat to Russia even if it had joined the EU or NATO.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    imposter2.0 said:

    pinno said:

    Contradictions of what a 'Proxy war' is, is simply pedantry.
    $xbn worth of arms that you do not use your self supplied to another country so they can fight a war is proxy.

    You can obviously call it a proxy war if you like. But it doesn't alter the fact that it isn't.

    Korea, Suez, Vietnam - all proxy wars. Ukraine - not so much.

    I am struggling to see the difference between Vietnam and Ukraine
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    DeVlaeminck said:

    I suppose it depends on how you want to define proxy war. What does the term add beyond saying the USA/West is giving military aid to Ukraine?

    I'd have thought to be meaningful the term proxy war referred to pursuing wider longer standing objectives against another state through a 3rd party conflict. I'm not sure that is the case here - beyond preventing Russian expansion which ok you could say meets that criteria. I don't think there's an agenda beyond the obvious one though.

    So imagine a world where the West has not been supplying, training and supporting Ukraine with ou best kit for the last 8 years. Ukraine falls in a week and Russian tanks are now on the Moldova border...

    containing Russsian expansion is a pretty big goal
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,287
    surrey_commuter said:

    morstar said:

    Will it run for decades? I think if there is a genuine wideheld belief in Russia that they are aggrieved, yes, I can see how it could do.

    I don’t believe that’s the case though. This is a situation engineered by a despot.

    Well the Russo-Ukraine War has been running for 8 years already so I guess you have to ask what the "end" looks like.
    Here's a thought regarding the "end".
    It should be made clear to Russia today that the sanctions will remain in place regardless of who "wins" until Ukraine is rebuilt for the population to repopulate in peace. Emphasis on the rebuilt. This will take some time. Russia can help, or hinder this at their cost either way.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,094
    surrey_commuter said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    I suppose it depends on how you want to define proxy war. What does the term add beyond saying the USA/West is giving military aid to Ukraine?

    I'd have thought to be meaningful the term proxy war referred to pursuing wider longer standing objectives against another state through a 3rd party conflict. I'm not sure that is the case here - beyond preventing Russian expansion which ok you could say meets that criteria. I don't think there's an agenda beyond the obvious one though.

    So imagine a world where the West has not been supplying, training and supporting Ukraine with ou best kit for the last 8 years. Ukraine falls in a week and Russian tanks are now on the Moldova border...

    containing Russsian expansion is a pretty big goal
    Yes sure which is what I meant by the obvious agenda - and I suppose that doesn't mean it's not relevant.

    I don't think the West has any aggressive intent though - I don't think it's trying to attack Russia for some other reason unrelated to defending Ukraine and stopping Russia becoming more of a direct threat to Poland, Baltic States etc.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,094
    In short the conflict here is about stopping Russia expanding into Ukraine - it's not about other conflicts which the USA and Russia are playing out through this one.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    edited March 2022
    surrey_commuter said:

    imposter2.0 said:

    pinno said:

    Contradictions of what a 'Proxy war' is, is simply pedantry.
    $xbn worth of arms that you do not use your self supplied to another country so they can fight a war is proxy.

    You can obviously call it a proxy war if you like. But it doesn't alter the fact that it isn't.

    Korea, Suez, Vietnam - all proxy wars. Ukraine - not so much.

    I am struggling to see the difference between Vietnam and Ukraine
    Vietnam was a 'north v south' conflict. NVA, supported and directed by China, USSR, N. Korea and others against the South, supported and directed by USA, Aus, NZ, S.Korea, etc.

    Ukraine is receiving indirect support from the west, against a Russian aggressor which is acting on it's own behalf.

    Ask yourself "whose bidding is Russia doing?" If the answer you come up with is "their own", then it's not a proxy war.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,095
    edited March 2022
    imposter2.0 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    imposter2.0 said:

    pinno said:

    Contradictions of what a 'Proxy war' is, is simply pedantry.
    $xbn worth of arms that you do not use your self supplied to another country so they can fight a war is proxy.

    You can obviously call it a proxy war if you like. But it doesn't alter the fact that it isn't.

    Korea, Suez, Vietnam - all proxy wars. Ukraine - not so much.

    I am struggling to see the difference between Vietnam and Ukraine
    Vietnam was a 'north v south' conflict. NVA, supported and directed by China, USSR, N. Korea and others against the South, supported and directed by USA, Aus, NZ, S.Korea, etc.

    Ukraine is receiving indirect support from the west, against a Russian aggressor which is acting on it's own behalf.

    Ask yourself "whose bidding is Russia doing?" If the answer you come up with is "their own", then it's not a proxy war.
    How was Suez a proxy war then?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    kingstongraham said:

    imposter2.0 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    imposter2.0 said:

    pinno said:

    Contradictions of what a 'Proxy war' is, is simply pedantry.
    $xbn worth of arms that you do not use your self supplied to another country so they can fight a war is proxy.

    You can obviously call it a proxy war if you like. But it doesn't alter the fact that it isn't.

    Korea, Suez, Vietnam - all proxy wars. Ukraine - not so much.

    I am struggling to see the difference between Vietnam and Ukraine
    Vietnam was a 'north v south' conflict. NVA, supported and directed by China, USSR, N. Korea and others against the South, supported and directed by USA, Aus, NZ, S.Korea, etc.

    Ukraine is receiving indirect support from the west, against a Russian aggressor which is acting on it's own behalf.

    Ask yourself "whose bidding is Russia doing?" If the answer you come up with is "their own", then it's not a proxy war.
    How was Suez a proxy war then?
    Israel + France + UK against Egypt + USSR + (arguably) USA.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,503
    Anyway. Good news that at least some of the people sheltering in that theatre have survived.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • davidof
    davidof Posts: 3,114
    surrey_commuter said:



    I am struggling to see the difference between Vietnam and Ukraine

    There isn't one. Korean War: N Korea was the proxy of Russia and China against the USA. Vietnam. N. Vietnam was the proxy of China against the USA.

    Don't worry about Imposter, he has his own definitions of everything that no-one knows about.
    BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
    Instagramme
  • thegreatdivide
    thegreatdivide Posts: 5,807
    rjsterry said:

    Anyway. Good news that at least some of the people sheltering in that theatre have survived.

    Very good news.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    imposter2.0 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    imposter2.0 said:

    pinno said:

    Contradictions of what a 'Proxy war' is, is simply pedantry.
    $xbn worth of arms that you do not use your self supplied to another country so they can fight a war is proxy.

    You can obviously call it a proxy war if you like. But it doesn't alter the fact that it isn't.

    Korea, Suez, Vietnam - all proxy wars. Ukraine - not so much.

    I am struggling to see the difference between Vietnam and Ukraine
    Vietnam was a 'north v south' conflict. NVA, supported and directed by China, USSR, N. Korea and others against the South, supported and directed by USA, Aus, NZ, S.Korea, etc.

    Ukraine is receiving indirect support from the west, against a Russian aggressor which is acting on it's own behalf.

    Ask yourself "whose bidding is Russia doing?" If the answer you come up with is "their own", then it's not a proxy war.
    another interpretation would be Vietnamese against French invaders then Vietnamese against Japanese invaders, Vietnamese against French invaders and then Vietnamese against American invaders.

    Various foreign powers armed the Vietnamese to defend their homeland against foreign invaders
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,095
    imposter2.0 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    imposter2.0 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    imposter2.0 said:

    pinno said:

    Contradictions of what a 'Proxy war' is, is simply pedantry.
    $xbn worth of arms that you do not use your self supplied to another country so they can fight a war is proxy.

    You can obviously call it a proxy war if you like. But it doesn't alter the fact that it isn't.

    Korea, Suez, Vietnam - all proxy wars. Ukraine - not so much.

    I am struggling to see the difference between Vietnam and Ukraine
    Vietnam was a 'north v south' conflict. NVA, supported and directed by China, USSR, N. Korea and others against the South, supported and directed by USA, Aus, NZ, S.Korea, etc.

    Ukraine is receiving indirect support from the west, against a Russian aggressor which is acting on it's own behalf.

    Ask yourself "whose bidding is Russia doing?" If the answer you come up with is "their own", then it's not a proxy war.
    How was Suez a proxy war then?
    Israel + France + UK against Egypt + USSR + (arguably) USA.

    And you're saying that the UK and France weren't in there directly acting in their own direct interests as combatants?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    davidof said:

    surrey_commuter said:



    I am struggling to see the difference between Vietnam and Ukraine

    There isn't one. Korean War: N Korea was the proxy of Russia and China against the USA. Vietnam. N. Vietnam was the proxy of China against the USA.

    Don't worry about Imposter, he has his own definitions of everything that no-one knows about.
    They're not 'my' definitions, incidentally. You can google the definition of a 'proxy' war, and then google lists of proxy wars through the ages - it's all out there. The current conflict in Ukraine does not meet the established definition of a proxy war.

    I didn't come up with the definition - I'm just applying it here. Ironically, the only person here with your own definition seems to be you... :smile:
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,691
    Dear Christ, can you imagine....

    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    ddraver said:

    Dear Christ, can you imagine....

    Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse for them...
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,875
    edited March 2022
    imposter2.0 said:

    davidof said:

    surrey_commuter said:



    I am struggling to see the difference between Vietnam and Ukraine

    There isn't one. Korean War: N Korea was the proxy of Russia and China against the USA. Vietnam. N. Vietnam was the proxy of China against the USA.

    Don't worry about Imposter, he has his own definitions of everything that no-one knows about.
    They're not 'my' definitions, incidentally. You can google the definition of a 'proxy' war, and then google lists of proxy wars through the ages - it's all out there. The current conflict in Ukraine does not meet the established definition of a proxy war.

    I didn't come up with the definition - I'm just applying it here. Ironically, the only person here with your own definition seems to be you... :smile:
    It took your advice a google for a list of proxy wars

    https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars

    2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine 2014–present Ukraine, United States European Union Russia
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    About to start Red Famine by Applebaum - a Moscow destruction of Ukraine an order of magnitude bigger than this effort, for now at least.

    There is a lot of beef there.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661


    hmm.
    _

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