Poo tin... Put@in...
Comments
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blimey, bet thats a fun read.rick_chasey said:About to start Red Famine by Applebaum - a Moscow destruction of Ukraine an order of magnitude bigger than this effort, for now at least.
There is a lot of beef there.
crack on with that Rick but please don't post your interpretations on here - enough stressy stress as is on this thread..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Some pretty startling omissions from that list. Surely the question is in how many wars do the major powers at the time not pick sides?TheBigBean said:
It took your advice a google for a list of proxy warsimposter2.0 said:
They're not 'my' definitions, incidentally. You can google the definition of a 'proxy' war, and then google lists of proxy wars through the ages - it's all out there. The current conflict in Ukraine does not meet the established definition of a proxy war.davidof said:
There isn't one. Korean War: N Korea was the proxy of Russia and China against the USA. Vietnam. N. Vietnam was the proxy of China against the USA.surrey_commuter said:
I am struggling to see the difference between Vietnam and Ukraine
Don't worry about Imposter, he has his own definitions of everything that no-one knows about.
I didn't come up with the definition - I'm just applying it here. Ironically, the only person here with your own definition seems to be you...
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars
2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine 2014–present Ukraine, United States European Union Russia1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Famine caused somewhere on the spectrum of deliberately by Moscow and certainly deliberately exacerbated by Moscow to starve Ukraine to the tune of 3.5m dead or so.MattFalle said:
blimey, bet thats a fun read.rick_chasey said:About to start Red Famine by Applebaum - a Moscow destruction of Ukraine an order of magnitude bigger than this effort, for now at least.
There is a lot of beef there.
crack on with that Rick but please don't post your interpretations on here - enough stressy stress as is on this thread.
A genocide basically.
This isn't the first time Russia punishes Ukraine for having its own ideas.0 -
It does say that. But ironically, military wiki's own definition of a proxy war would preclude the current conflict from appearing on its own list. There is a link to the definition on the page you just linked to.TheBigBean said:
It took your advice a google for a list of proxy warsimposter2.0 said:
They're not 'my' definitions, incidentally. You can google the definition of a 'proxy' war, and then google lists of proxy wars through the ages - it's all out there. The current conflict in Ukraine does not meet the established definition of a proxy war.davidof said:
There isn't one. Korean War: N Korea was the proxy of Russia and China against the USA. Vietnam. N. Vietnam was the proxy of China against the USA.surrey_commuter said:
I am struggling to see the difference between Vietnam and Ukraine
Don't worry about Imposter, he has his own definitions of everything that no-one knows about.
I didn't come up with the definition - I'm just applying it here. Ironically, the only person here with your own definition seems to be you...
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars
2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine 2014–present Ukraine, United States European Union Russia
It is defined as "when opposing powers use third parties as substitutes for fighting each other directly." You tell me if that meets the definition of what happened in 2014, or the definition of what is happening now?0 -
F1 GP in Bahrain this weekend. It's probably one of the only GPs the Russians will be able to get to...rick_chasey said:0 -
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver1 -
yeah, we know the history, no need to be pseudo-intello or recount it here.rick_chasey said:
Famine caused somewhere on the spectrum of deliberately by Moscow and certainly deliberately exacerbated by Moscow to starve Ukraine to the tune of 3.5m dead or so.MattFalle said:
blimey, bet thats a fun read.rick_chasey said:About to start Red Famine by Applebaum - a Moscow destruction of Ukraine an order of magnitude bigger than this effort, for now at least.
There is a lot of beef there.
crack on with that Rick but please don't post your interpretations on here - enough stressy stress as is on this thread.
A genocide basically.
This isn't the first time Russia punishes Ukraine for having its own ideas.
the situation is sad enough with suburban nataak being thrown in the mire..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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also means assets are in a Russo friendly country so can't be seized.imposter2.0 said:
F1 GP in Bahrain this weekend. It's probably one of the only GPs the Russians will be able to get to...rick_chasey said:.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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The main point is that they are not fighting each other because there is a third party involved. You can get excited that it needs to be third parties plural, but I'm not sure it adds much especially if all the examples of historical proxy wars are similar.imposter2.0 said:
It does say that. But ironically, military wiki's own definition of a proxy war would preclude the current conflict from appearing on its own list. There is a link to the definition on the page you just linked to.TheBigBean said:
It took your advice a google for a list of proxy warsimposter2.0 said:
They're not 'my' definitions, incidentally. You can google the definition of a 'proxy' war, and then google lists of proxy wars through the ages - it's all out there. The current conflict in Ukraine does not meet the established definition of a proxy war.davidof said:
There isn't one. Korean War: N Korea was the proxy of Russia and China against the USA. Vietnam. N. Vietnam was the proxy of China against the USA.surrey_commuter said:
I am struggling to see the difference between Vietnam and Ukraine
Don't worry about Imposter, he has his own definitions of everything that no-one knows about.
I didn't come up with the definition - I'm just applying it here. Ironically, the only person here with your own definition seems to be you...
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars
2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine 2014–present Ukraine, United States European Union Russia
It is defined as "when opposing powers use third parties as substitutes for fighting each other directly." You tell me if that meets the definition of what happened in 2014, or the definition of what is happening now?0 -
The definition seems clear enough to me.TheBigBean said:
The main point is that they are not fighting each other because there is a third party involved. You can get excited that it needs to be third parties plural, but I'm not sure it adds much especially if all the examples of historical proxy wars are similar.imposter2.0 said:
It does say that. But ironically, military wiki's own definition of a proxy war would preclude the current conflict from appearing on its own list. There is a link to the definition on the page you just linked to.TheBigBean said:
It took your advice a google for a list of proxy warsimposter2.0 said:
They're not 'my' definitions, incidentally. You can google the definition of a 'proxy' war, and then google lists of proxy wars through the ages - it's all out there. The current conflict in Ukraine does not meet the established definition of a proxy war.davidof said:
There isn't one. Korean War: N Korea was the proxy of Russia and China against the USA. Vietnam. N. Vietnam was the proxy of China against the USA.surrey_commuter said:
I am struggling to see the difference between Vietnam and Ukraine
Don't worry about Imposter, he has his own definitions of everything that no-one knows about.
I didn't come up with the definition - I'm just applying it here. Ironically, the only person here with your own definition seems to be you...
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars
2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine 2014–present Ukraine, United States European Union Russia
It is defined as "when opposing powers use third parties as substitutes for fighting each other directly." You tell me if that meets the definition of what happened in 2014, or the definition of what is happening now?0 -
I was only being semi-serious about the F1 thing, but there's clearly something in the Dubai 'safe haven' theory. Reading that twitter thread, there does seem to be some very interesting stuff going on in Moscow at the moment...MattFalle said:
also means assets are in a Russo friendly country so can't be seized.imposter2.0 said:
F1 GP in Bahrain this weekend. It's probably one of the only GPs the Russians will be able to get to...rick_chasey said:0 -
Never mind the minor inconvenience of a war and thousands dead, we have the serious subject of pedantry to resolve.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.2 -
If you think this thread will 'resolve' anything at all, you have a higher regard for the power of BR than I do...pblakeney said:Never mind the minor inconvenience of a war and thousands dead, we have the serious subject of pedantry to resolve.
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rick_chasey said:
Famine caused somewhere on the spectrum of deliberately by Moscow and certainly deliberately exacerbated by Moscow to starve Ukraine to the tune of 3.5m dead or so.MattFalle said:
blimey, bet thats a fun read.rick_chasey said:About to start Red Famine by Applebaum - a Moscow destruction of Ukraine an order of magnitude bigger than this effort, for now at least.
There is a lot of beef there.
crack on with that Rick but please don't post your interpretations on here - enough stressy stress as is on this thread.
A genocide basically.
This isn't the first time Russia punishes Ukraine for having its own ideas.
Have you thought about reading slightly cheerier material every so often? Does wonders for one’s soul and general well-being.2 -
imposter2.0 said:
I was only being semi-serious about the F1 thing, but there's clearly something in the Dubai 'safe haven' theory. Reading that twitter thread, there does seem to be some very interesting stuff going on in Moscow at the moment...MattFalle said:
also means assets are in a Russo friendly country so can't be seized.imposter2.0 said:
F1 GP in Bahrain this weekend. It's probably one of the only GPs the Russians will be able to get to...rick_chasey said:
I can’t access the thread, what sort of things are mentioned?0 -
this. exactly.kingstonian said:rick_chasey said:
Famine caused somewhere on the spectrum of deliberately by Moscow and certainly deliberately exacerbated by Moscow to starve Ukraine to the tune of 3.5m dead or so.MattFalle said:
blimey, bet thats a fun read.rick_chasey said:About to start Red Famine by Applebaum - a Moscow destruction of Ukraine an order of magnitude bigger than this effort, for now at least.
There is a lot of beef there.
crack on with that Rick but please don't post your interpretations on here - enough stressy stress as is on this thread.
A genocide basically.
This isn't the first time Russia punishes Ukraine for having its own ideas.
Have you thought about reading slightly cheerier material every so often? Does wonders for one’s soul and general well-being.
no one is going to invite you to any more dinner parties if you keep reading this trash all the time..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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A nice Montalbano novel.
Or just some airport spy trash - pointless, doesn't make you any cleverer but allows you to switch off brain for a while..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Discussion - variously - about the following...kingstonian said:imposter2.0 said:
I was only being semi-serious about the F1 thing, but there's clearly something in the Dubai 'safe haven' theory. Reading that twitter thread, there does seem to be some very interesting stuff going on in Moscow at the moment...MattFalle said:
also means assets are in a Russo friendly country so can't be seized.imposter2.0 said:
F1 GP in Bahrain this weekend. It's probably one of the only GPs the Russians will be able to get to...rick_chasey said:
I can’t access the thread, what sort of things are mentioned?
All the oligarchs are GTFO of Russia
Purges of 'non-patriots' are coming
Talk of various senior military and security officials being detained
Lots of Russian military transport a/c movements within Russia
Putin replacing around a thousand of his own personal staff (for fear of being poisoned)
Potential coup incoming or potential escalation of the current conflict
Makes for interesting and/or potentially alarming reading...0 -
best carry on smashing them to bits and stealing all their stuff while they can - don't want them having anything they can regroup with again.ddraver said:.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Resolve the pedantry or stop it.imposter2.0 said:
If you think this thread will 'resolve' anything at all, you have a higher regard for the power of BR than I do...pblakeney said:Never mind the minor inconvenience of a war and thousands dead, we have the serious subject of pedantry to resolve.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I find the idea that in certain situations otherwise rationale and healthy humans can both individually but also collectively be unimaginably awful to other humans really interesting.kingstonian said:rick_chasey said:
Famine caused somewhere on the spectrum of deliberately by Moscow and certainly deliberately exacerbated by Moscow to starve Ukraine to the tune of 3.5m dead or so.MattFalle said:
blimey, bet thats a fun read.rick_chasey said:About to start Red Famine by Applebaum - a Moscow destruction of Ukraine an order of magnitude bigger than this effort, for now at least.
There is a lot of beef there.
crack on with that Rick but please don't post your interpretations on here - enough stressy stress as is on this thread.
A genocide basically.
This isn't the first time Russia punishes Ukraine for having its own ideas.
Have you thought about reading slightly cheerier material every so often? Does wonders for one’s soul and general well-being.
This is presumably because I have lived a life of remarkable comfort so it is quite a distant concept which I can analyse and explore without tearing my metaphorical hair out.
Consider my general negativeness as coming from a place where I assume the good stuff is a given and so requires little or no attention paid to it. It's a sort of base line or natural optimism.0 -
I bet Lukashenko is getting grief off moon faced Hitler to send in troops. Lukashenko is deffo saying 'nah yer alright moon faced Hitler'.1
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Doesn't the Belerussian military have an even worse reputation when it comes to capability than the Russians?thegreatdivide said:I bet Lukashenko is getting grief off moon faced Hitler to send in troops. Lukashenko is deffo saying 'nah yer alright moon faced Hitler'.
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I'm sure they'd be hopeless.rick_chasey said:
Doesn't the Belerussian military have an even worse reputation when it comes to capability than the Russians?thegreatdivide said:I bet Lukashenko is getting grief off moon faced Hitler to send in troops. Lukashenko is deffo saying 'nah yer alright moon faced Hitler'.
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imposter2.0 said:
Discussion - variously - about the following...kingstonian said:imposter2.0 said:
I was only being semi-serious about the F1 thing, but there's clearly something in the Dubai 'safe haven' theory. Reading that twitter thread, there does seem to be some very interesting stuff going on in Moscow at the moment...MattFalle said:
also means assets are in a Russo friendly country so can't be seized.imposter2.0 said:
F1 GP in Bahrain this weekend. It's probably one of the only GPs the Russians will be able to get to...rick_chasey said:
I can’t access the thread, what sort of things are mentioned?
All the oligarchs are GTFO of Russia
Purges of 'non-patriots' are coming
Talk of various senior military and security officials being detained
Lots of Russian military transport a/c movements within Russia
Putin replacing around a thousand of his own personal staff (for fear of being poisoned)
Potential coup incoming or potential escalation of the current conflict
Makes for interesting and/or potentially alarming reading...
Thank you for sharing.0 -
We've moved on. You should too..pblakeney said:
Resolve the pedantry or stop it.imposter2.0 said:
If you think this thread will 'resolve' anything at all, you have a higher regard for the power of BR than I do...pblakeney said:Never mind the minor inconvenience of a war and thousands dead, we have the serious subject of pedantry to resolve.
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IMO, Lukashenko looks more like a moon-faced Hitler than moon-faced hitler does...thegreatdivide said:I bet Lukashenko is getting grief off moon faced Hitler to send in troops. Lukashenko is deffo saying 'nah yer alright moon faced Hitler'.
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Was it ok when you tediously argued about proxy wars before?pblakeney said:
Resolve the pedantry or stop it.imposter2.0 said:
If you think this thread will 'resolve' anything at all, you have a higher regard for the power of BR than I do...pblakeney said:Never mind the minor inconvenience of a war and thousands dead, we have the serious subject of pedantry to resolve.
pblakeney said:
This proxy war is being played out fairly realistically.TheBigBean said:
NATO isn't being attacked. It's just another proxy war.pblakeney said:
Game's over if they do. We are about to find out whether NATO is toothless or not.TheBigBean said:
You think the nukes are going to come out?pblakeney said:
I hope you are correct, I fear you are wrong. Putin's reaction to sanctions will be to escalate, not de-escalate. We knew they were coming, so did he.TheBigBean said:
There won't be a real war - at most it will be a proxy war. Just like the cold war which is how it got its name.pblakeney said:
Not arguing against your point but there will be a difference between a Cold War and a real war. In fact, the Russians may well cut it.TheBigBean said:
Yes, but it is a long term project and not currently in use. Germany could change its mind in a few weeks and agree to use it. It has no real short term impact on anything. Whereas, say, not using Nordstream 1 would have an immediate impact, but that isn't likely as the gas flowed throughout the cold war.focuszing723 said:
I doubt they are building it for the hell of it though and it was enough to give Germany cold feet when things started to get dicey.TheBigBean said:
Which means they haven't really done anything.rick_chasey said:
2TheBigBean said:
Have they cut Nordstream or Nordstream 2?rick_chasey said:
Understand the difference between NATO and the EU and it won't be applicable.focuszing723 said:Rick called me stupid at 7:32.
For all the British talk of the German's not willing to feel the pain of cutting Nordstream, Germans have taken the lead on doing so, and the Brits are working around the edges of their strategic exposure to Russian and Putin's cronies.
I don't know what's worse, a toothless NATO and peace for us or NATO to show their use.1 -
I thought it was a stupid discussion at the time.TheBigBean said:
Was it ok when you tediously argued about proxy wars before?imposter2.0 said:
We've moved on. You should too..pblakeney said:
Resolve the pedantry or stop it.imposter2.0 said:
If you think this thread will 'resolve' anything at all, you have a higher regard for the power of BR than I do...pblakeney said:Never mind the minor inconvenience of a war and thousands dead, we have the serious subject of pedantry to resolve.
pblakeney said:
This proxy war is being played out fairly realistically.TheBigBean said:
NATO isn't being attacked. It's just another proxy war.pblakeney said:
Game's over if they do. We are about to find out whether NATO is toothless or not.TheBigBean said:
You think the nukes are going to come out?pblakeney said:
I hope you are correct, I fear you are wrong. Putin's reaction to sanctions will be to escalate, not de-escalate. We knew they were coming, so did he.TheBigBean said:
There won't be a real war - at most it will be a proxy war. Just like the cold war which is how it got its name.pblakeney said:
Not arguing against your point but there will be a difference between a Cold War and a real war. In fact, the Russians may well cut it.TheBigBean said:
Yes, but it is a long term project and not currently in use. Germany could change its mind in a few weeks and agree to use it. It has no real short term impact on anything. Whereas, say, not using Nordstream 1 would have an immediate impact, but that isn't likely as the gas flowed throughout the cold war.focuszing723 said:
I doubt they are building it for the hell of it though and it was enough to give Germany cold feet when things started to get dicey.TheBigBean said:
Which means they haven't really done anything.rick_chasey said:
2TheBigBean said:
Have they cut Nordstream or Nordstream 2?rick_chasey said:
Understand the difference between NATO and the EU and it won't be applicable.focuszing723 said:Rick called me stupid at 7:32.
For all the British talk of the German's not willing to feel the pain of cutting Nordstream, Germans have taken the lead on doing so, and the Brits are working around the edges of their strategic exposure to Russian and Putin's cronies.
I don't know what's worse, a toothless NATO and peace for us or NATO to show their use.
It is a poxy war.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Quoting is hard now.
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