Poo tin... Put@in...
Comments
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if they can't get to the bodies safely they won't take them, nothing to do with leaving your dead.thegreatdivide said:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60693166
From the Ukrainian front line in Kharkiv. The Russians don't take their dead.
same as med - if you've been wounded and its not safe, you're on your on. i'm not going near you - and no one rlse will - until its safe.
its a different world, not a film where people run about putting bandages on each other while bullets ping around..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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There's a lot of footage coming out on Twitter now from the front lines.
These guys are definitely well kitted up. They also look impressively organised.
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Extract from the standard BCD Aide Memoire issued to everyone, the med bible for non medic troops.MattFalle said:
if they can't get to the bodies safely they won't take them, nothing to do with leaving your dead.thegreatdivide said:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60693166
From the Ukrainian front line in Kharkiv. The Russians don't take their dead.
same as med - if you've been wounded and its not safe, you're on your on. i'm not going near you - and no one rlse will - until its safe.
its a different world, not a film where people run about putting bandages on each other while bullets ping around.
the black box says it all.
its a different world.
.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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In more simple terms, I always thought it was also important in front line offensives, like Ukraine is suffering:
Kill 1, take one out
Injure 1, take 3 out (injured, plus 2 to remove from front line)
The rear support is less critical for a defender when you are taking oncoming fire!
Rocket assisted flamethrowers.thegreatdivide said:There's a lot of footage coming out on Twitter now from the front lines.
These guys are definitely well kitted up. They also look impressively organised.0 -
What even is a rocket assisted flame thrower? Doesn't sound good.
While the wound rather than kill to tie up manpower idea makes sense. In practice if you are firing one of those NLAWs at a tank presumably in the middle of a battle you are just trying to hit the thing and it's not possible to immobilise the tank, disable it's weapons and injure the crew just enough but leave them all to live another day.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
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Either it is just a technical challenge and the scientists and engineers don't think about it. Or, you rationalise it as the weapons are protecting people.briantrumpet said:MattFalle said:
Right, the principle is this.MattFalle said:
not really - let me have lunch and I'll exain: its actually quite intriguing and explains certain things but essentially in war you don't want to kill people.rick_chasey said:
Certainly not the dead, there are * a lot* of reports (though it could be propaganda so let's give it a pinch of salt) that the Russians are not really bothering picking up their own dead - presumably for the reason you're describing above.MattFalle said:
remember the asset and equipt tie up re the wounded.rick_chasey said:
that's a major part of what will be slowing them down as well.
You don't actually want to kill people as overall, its a bit short sighted.
Kill someone, that's one bod off the battlefield. 50 to a truck bed, one driver, one bod in the passenger seat, two in the back to lift and shift.
That's 4 people and one truck, so doesn't really affect the enemy's logistics too much.
Now, injure someone quite badly, but not bad enough to kill them, and the ball game is completely.
Initially:
man down
medic working
sect commander sorting cas
signaller with Sect comander
2ic sorting rest of Section
if I'm with my little team on the ground then thats it - generally game over as I will have used up a large part of the 25kg of med kit I carry alongside everything else.
mission is now on hold/abandoned.
Whole net goes silent as 9 liner (cas report) is fed back. Call it another 3 bods dealing with that plus added hassle as no one can now talk to each other.
Then:
MERT/PEDRO called
So that's groundcrew, air asset, pilot, doctor, trauma spesh and team. If I'm not with my little team then that's me out of the game for as long as it takes then time added on to get airframe sorted, kit replenished, etc.
NATO works on Platinum, Gold, Silver and Bronze timings, so everything is full gas.
Call it a further 6 bods in the initial air asset.
So now 17 people tied up.
Air asset will also have protection: so, Blackhawk/Chinook as MERT, two Apaches as cover - another 4 blokes.
21 blokes now plus two or three groundcrew.
Air assets heads back to nearest hospital - for sake of argument lets say Bastion.
If it makes it and hasn't been shot down, cas handover. Receiving med staff - further doctor, trauma team, nurses.
Call it 6 bods
Right, now it gets interesting.
Full surgery team, so surgeon/s, ODP, anaethetist, nurses, etc - offhand, 15 people
Also all the equipt.
Then, post operative immediate care then to a ward - nurses, doctors, pharmacists, beds, linen, laundry, chefs, etc etc.
Then transport back to home country - another airframe, doctors, nurses, loggies, receiving staff
Then everything that happens when the poor sod gets back.
You're looking at 100 people plus tied up for a single cas.
Then you have the morale issue: body bags can just be buried, bods walking around with bits missing, talking to people, their family talking to people can't be stopped
Genpop starts to get low morale, public dissent starts, protests, social media, now you've got civpop issues to deal with that take up domestic resources.
Bods in the ranks also start to see their mates being badly hurt, so its a bitshit. More loss of morale.
Its all quite scientific, innit.
I once read an industry article about the design of grenades & bullets, from the engineering perspective: the amount of thought about how to splatter human flesh without killing the owner of the flesh was extraordinary, and stomach churning.
I have a harder time with people who work in the tobacco industry to be honest.0 -
Sorry, this may seem a naive question, is that because it's believed Chelsea is being used to launder or because the government believed that's the only way to sanction that asset?rick_chasey said:
He has been sanctioned specifically under the anti-money laundering act.TheBigBean said:
Yes, I was unconvinced.pangolin said:
Only if you ignore the tweets after it.TheBigBean said:“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
There's no real 'design' necessary - it's simply what ballistics do. Bullets will bounce off things. Even musket balls did similar back in the day...briantrumpet said:MattFalle said:
yup.briantrumpet said:MattFalle said:
Right, the principle is this.MattFalle said:
not really - let me have lunch and I'll exain: its actually quite intriguing and explains certain things but essentially in war you don't want to kill people.rick_chasey said:
Certainly not the dead, there are * a lot* of reports (though it could be propaganda so let's give it a pinch of salt) that the Russians are not really bothering picking up their own dead - presumably for the reason you're describing above.MattFalle said:
remember the asset and equipt tie up re the wounded.rick_chasey said:
that's a major part of what will be slowing them down as well.
You don't actually want to kill people as overall, its a bit short sighted.
Kill someone, that's one bod off the battlefield. 50 to a truck bed, one driver, one bod in the passenger seat, two in the back to lift and shift.
That's 4 people and one truck, so doesn't really affect the enemy's logistics too much.
Now, injure someone quite badly, but not bad enough to kill them, and the ball game is completely.
Initially:
man down
medic working
sect commander sorting cas
signaller with Sect comander
2ic sorting rest of Section
if I'm with my little team on the ground then thats it - generally game over as I will have used up a large part of the 25kg of med kit I carry alongside everything else.
mission is now on hold/abandoned.
Whole net goes silent as 9 liner (cas report) is fed back. Call it another 3 bods dealing with that plus added hassle as no one can now talk to each other.
Then:
MERT/PEDRO called
So that's groundcrew, air asset, pilot, doctor, trauma spesh and team. If I'm not with my little team then that's me out of the game for as long as it takes then time added on to get airframe sorted, kit replenished, etc.
NATO works on Platinum, Gold, Silver and Bronze timings, so everything is full gas.
Call it a further 6 bods in the initial air asset.
So now 17 people tied up.
Air asset will also have protection: so, Blackhawk/Chinook as MERT, two Apaches as cover - another 4 blokes.
21 blokes now plus two or three groundcrew.
Air assets heads back to nearest hospital - for sake of argument lets say Bastion.
If it makes it and hasn't been shot down, cas handover. Receiving med staff - further doctor, trauma team, nurses.
Call it 6 bods
Right, now it gets interesting.
Full surgery team, so surgeon/s, ODP, anaethetist, nurses, etc - offhand, 15 people
Also all the equipt.
Then, post operative immediate care then to a ward - nurses, doctors, pharmacists, beds, linen, laundry, chefs, etc etc.
Then transport back to home country - another airframe, doctors, nurses, loggies, receiving staff
Then everything that happens when the poor sod gets back.
You're looking at 100 people plus tied up for a single cas.
Then you have the morale issue: body bags can just be buried, bods walking around with bits missing, talking to people, their family talking to people can't be stopped
Genpop starts to get low morale, public dissent starts, protests, social media, now you've got civpop issues to deal with that take up domestic resources.
Bods in the ranks also start to see their mates being badly hurt, so its a bitshit. More loss of morale.
Its all quite scientific, innit.
I once read an industry article about the design of grenades & bullets, from the engineering perspective: the amount of thought about how to splatter human flesh without killing the owner of the flesh was extraordinary, and stomach churning.
i could go on about the effects of ballastic injuries nut its yukky and horrible and, tbh, i find it really sad.
i really, really, really fuckinghate guns.
I tried to wrap my head around the sort of intelligent people who'd put their scientific skills to meeting such specific and awful criteria, but didn't manage it. I guess it's what the 'arms industry' does, but I still can't imagine doing that day in, day out, for a job, however much they paid me.0 -
imposter2.0 said:
There's no real 'design' necessary - it's simply what ballistics do. Bullets will bounce off things. Even musket balls did similar back in the day...briantrumpet said:MattFalle said:
yup.briantrumpet said:MattFalle said:
Right, the principle is this.MattFalle said:
not really - let me have lunch and I'll exain: its actually quite intriguing and explains certain things but essentially in war you don't want to kill people.rick_chasey said:
Certainly not the dead, there are * a lot* of reports (though it could be propaganda so let's give it a pinch of salt) that the Russians are not really bothering picking up their own dead - presumably for the reason you're describing above.MattFalle said:
remember the asset and equipt tie up re the wounded.rick_chasey said:
that's a major part of what will be slowing them down as well.
You don't actually want to kill people as overall, its a bit short sighted.
Kill someone, that's one bod off the battlefield. 50 to a truck bed, one driver, one bod in the passenger seat, two in the back to lift and shift.
That's 4 people and one truck, so doesn't really affect the enemy's logistics too much.
Now, injure someone quite badly, but not bad enough to kill them, and the ball game is completely.
Initially:
man down
medic working
sect commander sorting cas
signaller with Sect comander
2ic sorting rest of Section
if I'm with my little team on the ground then thats it - generally game over as I will have used up a large part of the 25kg of med kit I carry alongside everything else.
mission is now on hold/abandoned.
Whole net goes silent as 9 liner (cas report) is fed back. Call it another 3 bods dealing with that plus added hassle as no one can now talk to each other.
Then:
MERT/PEDRO called
So that's groundcrew, air asset, pilot, doctor, trauma spesh and team. If I'm not with my little team then that's me out of the game for as long as it takes then time added on to get airframe sorted, kit replenished, etc.
NATO works on Platinum, Gold, Silver and Bronze timings, so everything is full gas.
Call it a further 6 bods in the initial air asset.
So now 17 people tied up.
Air asset will also have protection: so, Blackhawk/Chinook as MERT, two Apaches as cover - another 4 blokes.
21 blokes now plus two or three groundcrew.
Air assets heads back to nearest hospital - for sake of argument lets say Bastion.
If it makes it and hasn't been shot down, cas handover. Receiving med staff - further doctor, trauma team, nurses.
Call it 6 bods
Right, now it gets interesting.
Full surgery team, so surgeon/s, ODP, anaethetist, nurses, etc - offhand, 15 people
Also all the equipt.
Then, post operative immediate care then to a ward - nurses, doctors, pharmacists, beds, linen, laundry, chefs, etc etc.
Then transport back to home country - another airframe, doctors, nurses, loggies, receiving staff
Then everything that happens when the poor sod gets back.
You're looking at 100 people plus tied up for a single cas.
Then you have the morale issue: body bags can just be buried, bods walking around with bits missing, talking to people, their family talking to people can't be stopped
Genpop starts to get low morale, public dissent starts, protests, social media, now you've got civpop issues to deal with that take up domestic resources.
Bods in the ranks also start to see their mates being badly hurt, so its a bitshit. More loss of morale.
Its all quite scientific, innit.
I once read an industry article about the design of grenades & bullets, from the engineering perspective: the amount of thought about how to splatter human flesh without killing the owner of the flesh was extraordinary, and stomach churning.
i could go on about the effects of ballastic injuries nut its yukky and horrible and, tbh, i find it really sad.
i really, really, really fuckinghate guns.
I tried to wrap my head around the sort of intelligent people who'd put their scientific skills to meeting such specific and awful criteria, but didn't manage it. I guess it's what the 'arms industry' does, but I still can't imagine doing that day in, day out, for a job, however much they paid me.
That's not my memory of the article. Of course it could be the 'engineers' justifying their salaries, but it did seem more detailed than that.0 -
Er, lots of science and engineering in defence technology I can assure you.briantrumpet said:imposter2.0 said:
There's no real 'design' necessary - it's simply what ballistics do. Bullets will bounce off things. Even musket balls did similar back in the day...briantrumpet said:MattFalle said:
yup.briantrumpet said:MattFalle said:
Right, the principle is this.MattFalle said:
not really - let me have lunch and I'll exain: its actually quite intriguing and explains certain things but essentially in war you don't want to kill people.rick_chasey said:
Certainly not the dead, there are * a lot* of reports (though it could be propaganda so let's give it a pinch of salt) that the Russians are not really bothering picking up their own dead - presumably for the reason you're describing above.MattFalle said:
remember the asset and equipt tie up re the wounded.rick_chasey said:
that's a major part of what will be slowing them down as well.
You don't actually want to kill people as overall, its a bit short sighted.
Kill someone, that's one bod off the battlefield. 50 to a truck bed, one driver, one bod in the passenger seat, two in the back to lift and shift.
That's 4 people and one truck, so doesn't really affect the enemy's logistics too much.
Now, injure someone quite badly, but not bad enough to kill them, and the ball game is completely.
Initially:
man down
medic working
sect commander sorting cas
signaller with Sect comander
2ic sorting rest of Section
if I'm with my little team on the ground then thats it - generally game over as I will have used up a large part of the 25kg of med kit I carry alongside everything else.
mission is now on hold/abandoned.
Whole net goes silent as 9 liner (cas report) is fed back. Call it another 3 bods dealing with that plus added hassle as no one can now talk to each other.
Then:
MERT/PEDRO called
So that's groundcrew, air asset, pilot, doctor, trauma spesh and team. If I'm not with my little team then that's me out of the game for as long as it takes then time added on to get airframe sorted, kit replenished, etc.
NATO works on Platinum, Gold, Silver and Bronze timings, so everything is full gas.
Call it a further 6 bods in the initial air asset.
So now 17 people tied up.
Air asset will also have protection: so, Blackhawk/Chinook as MERT, two Apaches as cover - another 4 blokes.
21 blokes now plus two or three groundcrew.
Air assets heads back to nearest hospital - for sake of argument lets say Bastion.
If it makes it and hasn't been shot down, cas handover. Receiving med staff - further doctor, trauma team, nurses.
Call it 6 bods
Right, now it gets interesting.
Full surgery team, so surgeon/s, ODP, anaethetist, nurses, etc - offhand, 15 people
Also all the equipt.
Then, post operative immediate care then to a ward - nurses, doctors, pharmacists, beds, linen, laundry, chefs, etc etc.
Then transport back to home country - another airframe, doctors, nurses, loggies, receiving staff
Then everything that happens when the poor sod gets back.
You're looking at 100 people plus tied up for a single cas.
Then you have the morale issue: body bags can just be buried, bods walking around with bits missing, talking to people, their family talking to people can't be stopped
Genpop starts to get low morale, public dissent starts, protests, social media, now you've got civpop issues to deal with that take up domestic resources.
Bods in the ranks also start to see their mates being badly hurt, so its a bitshit. More loss of morale.
Its all quite scientific, innit.
I once read an industry article about the design of grenades & bullets, from the engineering perspective: the amount of thought about how to splatter human flesh without killing the owner of the flesh was extraordinary, and stomach churning.
i could go on about the effects of ballastic injuries nut its yukky and horrible and, tbh, i find it really sad.
i really, really, really fuckinghate guns.
I tried to wrap my head around the sort of intelligent people who'd put their scientific skills to meeting such specific and awful criteria, but didn't manage it. I guess it's what the 'arms industry' does, but I still can't imagine doing that day in, day out, for a job, however much they paid me.
That's not my memory of the article. Of course it could be the 'engineers' justifying their salaries, but it did seem more detailed than that.
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rjsterry said:
What even is a rocket assisted flame thrower? Doesn't sound good.
While the wound rather than kill to tie up manpower idea makes sense. In practice if you are firing one of those NLAWs at a tank presumably in the middle of a battle you are just trying to hit the thing and it's not possible to immobilise the tank, disable it's weapons and injure the crew just enough but leave them all to live another day.
Correct. A Javelin or NLAW hitting a target doesn’t leave anyone to be patched up.
Taking out a major piece of kit, such as a tank or even a helicopter/fighter jet, has a slightly different remit. An injured infantryman can be replaced relatively easily. A tank crew however needs a fair amount of training and the Russians can’t just lift 3 guys out of an infantry corps, give them the keys to a tank and 2 mins later say “Away you go.” Even more so for pilots - you can have as many planes available as you like but if you don’t have trained pilots they are useless.
Surface to air missiles have been designed for decades to ensure as much as possible the pilot is killed - the Exocet (As used against Harriers in the Falklands back in the early 80’s) would engage the heat source and then go a few metres past it so they exploded closer to the pilot, for example.0 -
You can look at the accounts for Chelsea FC PLC and investigate. It's not obvious to me especially as they presumably could have agreed the sale and the Ukraine donation. Maybe they are just trying to wind him up because they know he cares about the club - much like going after the kids of oligarchs.tailwindhome said:
Sorry, this may seem a naive question, is that because it's believed Chelsea is being used to launder or because the government believed that's the only way to sanction that asset?rick_chasey said:
He has been sanctioned specifically under the anti-money laundering act.TheBigBean said:
Yes, I was unconvinced.pangolin said:
Only if you ignore the tweets after it.TheBigBean said:
Interestingly, Roman Abramovich is not listed as having significant control. Intrigued to know why.0 -
So we don’t know but that is a possibility- and is in keeping with kleptocratic behaviour.tailwindhome said:
Sorry, this may seem a naive question, is that because it's believed Chelsea is being used to launder or because the government believed that's the only way to sanction that asset?rick_chasey said:
He has been sanctioned specifically under the anti-money laundering act.TheBigBean said:
Yes, I was unconvinced.pangolin said:
Only if you ignore the tweets after it.TheBigBean said:0 -
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They are rather like a grenade launcher but fire an incendiary projectilerjsterry said:What even is a rocket assisted flame thrower? Doesn't sound good.
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Exocet was an anti-ship missile. I suspect you mean 'Stinger', but I don't recognise that method of attack.kingstonian said:Surface to air missiles have been designed for decades to ensure as much as possible the pilot is killed - the Exocet (As used against Harriers in the Falklands back in the early 80’s) would engage the heat source and then go a few metres past it so they exploded closer to the pilot, for example.
SAMs - however guided - are generally just tasked with the objective of hitting aircraft and knocking them down. The survival (or not) of the pilot is largely irrelevant.
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cheers dude!rick_chasey said:@Matthewfalle
This video has been doing the rounds.
Doesn’t look very organised..
they lookshitter than expected. Not even phase 3 standard.
Poor bugerrs are just cannon fodder..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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and people voted for and stand behind this scum government currently squatting in Downing Street
#fucktheTories
.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Yes. A SAM usually detonates before it hits the plane via a proximity fuse. The subsequent explosion and shrapnel hits the plane and hopefully causes enough damage that it falls out the sky.imposter2.0 said:
Exocet was an anti-ship missile. I suspect you mean 'Stinger', but I don't recognise that method of attack.kingstonian said:Surface to air missiles have been designed for decades to ensure as much as possible the pilot is killed - the Exocet (As used against Harriers in the Falklands back in the early 80’s) would engage the heat source and then go a few metres past it so they exploded closer to the pilot, for example.
SAMs - however guided - are generally just tasked with the objective of hitting aircraft and knocking them down. The survival (or not) of the pilot is largely irrelevant.
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Nice to see Matts expertise
But also very grim.0 -
I didn't have on my 2022 bingo card that I'd be interested in this sort of Twitter thread...
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If you were playing big man bingo you wouldn't have called house, because that thread didn't mention willymetres.0
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Bally is fighting bravely (despite being badly out numbered) against those who would seek to dictate to us. Maybe he should change his username to Ballymyr Zelensky?rick_chasey said:Bally’s a renegade, fearlessly posting against wokism
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I found a video. Not a lot left.kingstonian said:
They are rather like a grenade launcher but fire an incendiary projectilerjsterry said:What even is a rocket assisted flame thrower? Doesn't sound good.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
take more than a Hello Kitty plaster and some ascerbic wit to sort that out.rjsterry said:
I found a video. Not a lot left.kingstonian said:
They are rather like a grenade launcher but fire an incendiary projectilerjsterry said:What even is a rocket assisted flame thrower? Doesn't sound good.
#oooooch.betthathurts.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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rick_chasey said:
Unfortunately I’m not surprised0 -
Big "mad villian living in a hollowed out volcano" vibes here...
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMLfSuQko/?k=1We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0
