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  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    blazing_saddles said:

    rjsterry said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Economist Defence Editor.

    Thus far his analysis has been bang on, both before and during.

    According to Google, a battalion is ~400 men, so ~2500 in total? MF can probably confirm.
    Since he specifically states they are tactical battalions.

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a39193732/russian-battalion-tactical-groups-explained/

    Follow the link there and we get:

    The battalion tactical group [batalonnaya takticheskaya gruppa] is a temporary formation for solving certain operational tasks. The BTG is a reinforced battalion that has all the necessary reinforcements. Each BTG consists of 700-800 people, and some - of 900. Each brigade and regiment, as a rule, includes two such battalion groups. The battalion tactical group is a temporary unit. It is created for combat. The BTG is created around a motorized rifle or tank battalion by subordinating to it artillery, anti-aircraft, engineering and other special units necessary to carry out the assigned combat mission. It includes a motorized infantry company(s), 2-4 tanks, units with ATGMs, mortars, reconnaissance, engineering and rear groups. It can be covered by fire support helicopters, divisional artillery and a platoon of anti-aircraft guns.


    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/army-btg.htm

    So, significantly more bodies than I initially thought.

    I’d expect those battalions comprise mainly tanks and artillery, in which case the continuous supply of Javelins and NLAWs from the West will need to keep coming.
  • thegreatdivide
    thegreatdivide Posts: 5,807
    rick_chasey said:

    Read down the tweet. It's explained that they've been there since day 2 - stuck.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,227
    blazing_saddles said:

    rjsterry said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Economist Defence Editor.

    Thus far his analysis has been bang on, both before and during.

    According to Google, a battalion is ~400 men, so ~2500 in total? MF can probably confirm.
    Since he specifically states they are tactical battalions.

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a39193732/russian-battalion-tactical-groups-explained/

    Follow the link there and we get:

    The battalion tactical group [batalonnaya takticheskaya gruppa] is a temporary formation for solving certain operational tasks. The BTG is a reinforced battalion that has all the necessary reinforcements. Each BTG consists of 700-800 people, and some - of 900. Each brigade and regiment, as a rule, includes two such battalion groups. The battalion tactical group is a temporary unit. It is created for combat. The BTG is created around a motorized rifle or tank battalion by subordinating to it artillery, anti-aircraft, engineering and other special units necessary to carry out the assigned combat mission. It includes a motorized infantry company(s), 2-4 tanks, units with ATGMs, mortars, reconnaissance, engineering and rear groups. It can be covered by fire support helicopters, divisional artillery and a platoon of anti-aircraft guns.


    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/army-btg.htm

    So, significantly more bodies than I initially thought.
    Listened to a More Or Less stats episode today; think the number they used was 750 per battalion, which ties with the numbers you quote.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,162
    Countdown the chemical weapons use.

    Russia have "found documents" that Ukraine was developing them. Just like in Syria. Amazing bad luck to keep fighting unwilling populations that happen to be up to such dastardly stuff.

    If they are deployed by air I wonder if that would be the no fly zone tipping point.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    thegreatdivide said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Read down the tweet. It's explained that they've been there since day 2 - stuck.

    Which is why I posted that second link about support logistics. The more personnel, the greater the supply headache.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,162
    blazing_saddles said:



    thegreatdivide said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Read down the tweet. It's explained that they've been there since day 2 - stuck.

    Which is why I posted that second link about support logistics. The more personnel, the greater the supply headache.
    Reports that they are trying to obtain civilian vehicles from Belarus.

    Am I wrong in thinking that things get even worse for Kyiv when the weather improves?
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    kingstonian said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    rjsterry said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Economist Defence Editor.

    Thus far his analysis has been bang on, both before and during.

    According to Google, a battalion is ~400 men, so ~2500 in total? MF can probably confirm.
    Since he specifically states they are tactical battalions.

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a39193732/russian-battalion-tactical-groups-explained/

    Follow the link there and we get:

    The battalion tactical group [batalonnaya takticheskaya gruppa] is a temporary formation for solving certain operational tasks. The BTG is a reinforced battalion that has all the necessary reinforcements. Each BTG consists of 700-800 people, and some - of 900. Each brigade and regiment, as a rule, includes two such battalion groups. The battalion tactical group is a temporary unit. It is created for combat. The BTG is created around a motorized rifle or tank battalion by subordinating to it artillery, anti-aircraft, engineering and other special units necessary to carry out the assigned combat mission. It includes a motorized infantry company(s), 2-4 tanks, units with ATGMs, mortars, reconnaissance, engineering and rear groups. It can be covered by fire support helicopters, divisional artillery and a platoon of anti-aircraft guns.


    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/army-btg.htm

    So, significantly more bodies than I initially thought.

    I’d expect those battalions comprise mainly tanks and artillery, in which case the continuous supply of Javelins and NLAWs from the West will need to keep coming.
    Is the Javelin still used? I thought it was retired years ago and was considered a bit shit even when it was state of the art (might be confusing it with the Blowpipe that I think had a shoot and hope reputation in the Falklands).
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    .
    Pross said:

    kingstonian said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    rjsterry said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Economist Defence Editor.

    Thus far his analysis has been bang on, both before and during.

    According to Google, a battalion is ~400 men, so ~2500 in total? MF can probably confirm.
    Since he specifically states they are tactical battalions.

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a39193732/russian-battalion-tactical-groups-explained/

    Follow the link there and we get:

    The battalion tactical group [batalonnaya takticheskaya gruppa] is a temporary formation for solving certain operational tasks. The BTG is a reinforced battalion that has all the necessary reinforcements. Each BTG consists of 700-800 people, and some - of 900. Each brigade and regiment, as a rule, includes two such battalion groups. The battalion tactical group is a temporary unit. It is created for combat. The BTG is created around a motorized rifle or tank battalion by subordinating to it artillery, anti-aircraft, engineering and other special units necessary to carry out the assigned combat mission. It includes a motorized infantry company(s), 2-4 tanks, units with ATGMs, mortars, reconnaissance, engineering and rear groups. It can be covered by fire support helicopters, divisional artillery and a platoon of anti-aircraft guns.


    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/army-btg.htm

    So, significantly more bodies than I initially thought.

    I’d expect those battalions comprise mainly tanks and artillery, in which case the continuous supply of Javelins and NLAWs from the West will need to keep coming.
    Is the Javelin still used? I thought it was retired years ago and was considered a bit censored even when it was state of the art (might be confusing it with the Blowpipe that I think had a shoot and hope reputation in the Falklands).
    Not the old anti aircraft missile but the new American anti tank missile.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661


    Thoughts?
    _
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,697
    I struggle to see the difference between a plane, an anti-aircraft missile and an anti-tank missile to be honest.

    The latter has been devastating to the russian offensive but no one is suggesting we should stop sending them.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,162
    Who is he?
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Reports that Germany is blocking attempts by the EU to extend Swift sanctions. Fearful of endangering gas supplies apparently.
    Perhaps not the legacy Angela Merkel envisaged.

    https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/germany-stalling-eu-efforts-broaden-120135951.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAGst2JhkUAniJ0dZi8rdSW_G5uWyH5DUxxvrDV5df86VTabk6dl7-GPdkWh3yVuBT0-X8bntzgO5Zd6sl7cD1fNz7J34bLfzW1ycU-zDZ2b-x06QiP1eYs8z8_l834qxDIIkZY1bSwRz47K39UAGyXkXY-3-8z3ZcA6ZH8EfQs16
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    ballysmate said:

    .

    Pross said:

    kingstonian said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    rjsterry said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Economist Defence Editor.

    Thus far his analysis has been bang on, both before and during.

    According to Google, a battalion is ~400 men, so ~2500 in total? MF can probably confirm.
    Since he specifically states they are tactical battalions.

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a39193732/russian-battalion-tactical-groups-explained/

    Follow the link there and we get:

    The battalion tactical group [batalonnaya takticheskaya gruppa] is a temporary formation for solving certain operational tasks. The BTG is a reinforced battalion that has all the necessary reinforcements. Each BTG consists of 700-800 people, and some - of 900. Each brigade and regiment, as a rule, includes two such battalion groups. The battalion tactical group is a temporary unit. It is created for combat. The BTG is created around a motorized rifle or tank battalion by subordinating to it artillery, anti-aircraft, engineering and other special units necessary to carry out the assigned combat mission. It includes a motorized infantry company(s), 2-4 tanks, units with ATGMs, mortars, reconnaissance, engineering and rear groups. It can be covered by fire support helicopters, divisional artillery and a platoon of anti-aircraft guns.


    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/army-btg.htm

    So, significantly more bodies than I initially thought.

    I’d expect those battalions comprise mainly tanks and artillery, in which case the continuous supply of Javelins and NLAWs from the West will need to keep coming.
    Is the Javelin still used? I thought it was retired years ago and was considered a bit censored even when it was state of the art (might be confusing it with the Blowpipe that I think had a shoot and hope reputation in the Falklands).
    Not the old anti aircraft missile but the new American anti tank missile.
    Ah that makes sense. I wondered why we were sending stuff that was considered crap 30 years ago!
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    First.Aspect said:

    Who is he?

    No one just thought it was an interesting idea worth discussing
    _
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,162
    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    Who is he?

    No one just thought it was an interesting idea worth discussing
    Oh. First thought - moot point, Russia already knows west is supplying arms and applying sanctions.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,557
    Pretty horrific seeing the aftermath of the bombing of the children's hospital. Another to add to the war crimes list.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    edited March 2022
    ballysmate said:


    Perhaps not the legacy Angela Merkel envisaged

    There's an dilemma for the West if an approach to Russia based on trade hasn't prevented conflict (as it arguably has prevented conflict between the EU27) what will work?

    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,541
    blazing_saddles said:

    rjsterry said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Economist Defence Editor.

    Thus far his analysis has been bang on, both before and during.

    According to Google, a battalion is ~400 men, so ~2500 in total? MF can probably confirm.
    Since he specifically states they are tactical battalions.

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a39193732/russian-battalion-tactical-groups-explained/

    Follow the link there and we get:

    The battalion tactical group [batalonnaya takticheskaya gruppa] is a temporary formation for solving certain operational tasks. The BTG is a reinforced battalion that has all the necessary reinforcements. Each BTG consists of 700-800 people, and some - of 900. Each brigade and regiment, as a rule, includes two such battalion groups. The battalion tactical group is a temporary unit. It is created for combat. The BTG is created around a motorized rifle or tank battalion by subordinating to it artillery, anti-aircraft, engineering and other special units necessary to carry out the assigned combat mission. It includes a motorized infantry company(s), 2-4 tanks, units with ATGMs, mortars, reconnaissance, engineering and rear groups. It can be covered by fire support helicopters, divisional artillery and a platoon of anti-aircraft guns.


    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/army-btg.htm

    So, significantly more bodies than I initially thought.
    Still not enormous numbers given the claimed rates of attrition.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,337
    First.Aspect said:

    blazing_saddles said:



    thegreatdivide said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Read down the tweet. It's explained that they've been there since day 2 - stuck.

    Which is why I posted that second link about support logistics. The more personnel, the greater the supply headache.
    Reports that they are trying to obtain civilian vehicles from Belarus.

    Am I wrong in thinking that things get even worse for Kyiv when the weather improves?

    Probably depends on specifics. Ukrainian mud is something else.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasputitsa
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,162
    briantrumpet said:

    First.Aspect said:

    blazing_saddles said:



    thegreatdivide said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Read down the tweet. It's explained that they've been there since day 2 - stuck.

    Which is why I posted that second link about support logistics. The more personnel, the greater the supply headache.
    Reports that they are trying to obtain civilian vehicles from Belarus.

    Am I wrong in thinking that things get even worse for Kyiv when the weather improves?

    Probably depends on specifics. Ukrainian mud is something else.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasputitsa
    Much like any popular walking route in the Dart valley at this time of year.

    In seriousness, yes I know, but it's going to dry out eventually. I assume rough roads are not in of themselves an issue for a tank. Less sure about supply vehicles....
  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    Pross said:

    ballysmate said:

    .

    Pross said:

    kingstonian said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    rjsterry said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Economist Defence Editor.

    Thus far his analysis has been bang on, both before and during.

    According to Google, a battalion is ~400 men, so ~2500 in total? MF can probably confirm.
    Since he specifically states they are tactical battalions.

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a39193732/russian-battalion-tactical-groups-explained/

    Follow the link there and we get:

    The battalion tactical group [batalonnaya takticheskaya gruppa] is a temporary formation for solving certain operational tasks. The BTG is a reinforced battalion that has all the necessary reinforcements. Each BTG consists of 700-800 people, and some - of 900. Each brigade and regiment, as a rule, includes two such battalion groups. The battalion tactical group is a temporary unit. It is created for combat. The BTG is created around a motorized rifle or tank battalion by subordinating to it artillery, anti-aircraft, engineering and other special units necessary to carry out the assigned combat mission. It includes a motorized infantry company(s), 2-4 tanks, units with ATGMs, mortars, reconnaissance, engineering and rear groups. It can be covered by fire support helicopters, divisional artillery and a platoon of anti-aircraft guns.


    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/army-btg.htm

    So, significantly more bodies than I initially thought.

    I’d expect those battalions comprise mainly tanks and artillery, in which case the continuous supply of Javelins and NLAWs from the West will need to keep coming.
    Is the Javelin still used? I thought it was retired years ago and was considered a bit censored even when it was state of the art (might be confusing it with the Blowpipe that I think had a shoot and hope reputation in the Falklands).
    Not the old anti aircraft missile but the new American anti tank missile.
    Ah that makes sense. I wondered why we were sending stuff that was considered censored 30 years ago!

    Yep, the Javelin is very effective.
  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    ddraver said:

    I struggle to see the difference between a plane, an anti-aircraft missile and an anti-tank missile to be honest.

    The latter has been devastating to the russian offensive but no one is suggesting we should stop sending them.


    Yes, it is a bit of a strange situation. The crucial difference is the nationality of the person using the anti-aircraft & anti-tank weaponry compared to the nationality of the airmen flying the planes. But it is a very fine line.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Against the backdrop of gas and oil supplies being disrupted, petrol heading towards 2 quid a litre, Extinction Rebellion are planning to blockade oil refineries on the 9th April. I sh!t you not!
    Who runs their PR campaign, Vladimir Putin?
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    ballysmate said:

    rick_chasey said:

    ballysmate said:

    ddraver said:

    Understood, but it's what the Ukranians keep asking for. I assume they have some reason.

    Perhaps they're worried about what might come next..?

    Ukraine also asks for Europe to stop importing Russian gas as it benefits Russia to the tune of over 250m dollars a day.
    Europe has put that in the "Too Difficult" tray.
    NATO needs to examine its own interest first and it may well be that not getting into a war with Russia is a preferable option
    Totally agree that Nato needs to avoid entering into military combat with Russia. That is why a no fly zone is not an option and as stated earlier, would bring limited benefit.
    I don't think Putin is in such a strong position with NATO. If they said we are implementing a no fly zone and will only make contact with ground targets if they fire at us then this would be reasonable. Putin could bluster but if they just said it will be an eye for an eye then where does Putin go. If he fires conventional weapons off in Europe he knows he will get them back in Moscow. If he engages with NATO planes in Ukraine then it is fair game. If he goes nuclear everyone dies. He really does not have that strong a hand.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    ballysmate said:

    Against the backdrop of gas and oil supplies being disrupted, petrol heading towards 2 quid a litre, Extinction Rebellion are planning to blockade oil refineries on the 9th April. I sh!t you not!
    Who runs their PR campaign, Vladimir Putin?

    They are moronic and they do a very good job of getting otherwise onside people to be against them, but I do feel this is another good reason to wean the economy off hydrocarbons rather than the opposite.
    _
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    edited March 2022
    tailwindhome said:

    ballysmate said:


    Perhaps not the legacy Angela Merkel envisaged

    There's an dilemma for the West if an approach to Russia based on trade hasn't prevented conflict (as it arguably has prevented conflict between the EU27) what will work?

    Putin realising he will get messed up by the entire western line of countries. NATO essentially needs to join the line up and put some boundaries in place. We don't want to do this as it is a waste of our resources and would rather trade. We are dealing with a country of mentalists.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    ballysmate said:

    Who runs their PR campaign, Vladimir Putin?

    Putin has a track record of funding 'disruptive' initiatives (like Brexit & Trump, for example), so it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the GRU were pulling the strings somewhere along the line...

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    Ukrainians happy with the UK

    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/03/i-loathe-boris-johnson-but-ukrainians-love-him
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,162
    TheBigBean said:

    Ukrainians happy with the UK

    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/03/i-loathe-boris-johnson-but-ukrainians-love-him

    We could swap.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    TheBigBean said:

    Ukrainians happy with the UK

    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/03/i-loathe-boris-johnson-but-ukrainians-love-him

    Bet that gets well received on here. :D:D

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