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Comments

  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,287
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    What I like about NAFO is it’s the same idea the Russians came up with re information warfare, but it’s just an up-to-date version that realises the value of humour.

    Russian efforts are stuck in 1982.

    I’m no doubt swallowing a lot of Ukrainian propoganda, and I’m OK with it - that’s when you know it’s working.

    I am surprised that you are not trying to be more objective
    :D
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    What I like about NAFO is it’s the same idea the Russians came up with re information warfare, but it’s just an up-to-date version that realises the value of humour.

    Russian efforts are stuck in 1982.

    I’m no doubt swallowing a lot of Ukrainian propoganda, and I’m OK with it - that’s when you know it’s working.

    I am surprised that you are not trying to be more objective
    I'm convinced the war crimes committed by Russians that are reported on by the mainstream press are indeed real.

    Beyond that, my position is "anything that works to stop this is a good thing".

    They are proper baddies at this point; there may be shades of grey on a micro level no the ground but on a macro level, which is all that we can really see, it's bad vs not bad, so I'll back not bad 100% - without hesitation.

    This only ends with Russians returning back over the border and agreeing to stop shooting or blowing Ukrainians up.
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    What I like about NAFO is it’s the same idea the Russians came up with re information warfare, but it’s just an up-to-date version that realises the value of humour.

    Russian efforts are stuck in 1982.

    I’m no doubt swallowing a lot of Ukrainian propoganda, and I’m OK with it - that’s when you know it’s working.

    I am surprised that you are not trying to be more objective
    I'm convinced the war crimes committed by Russians that are reported on by the mainstream press are indeed real.

    Beyond that, my position is "anything that works to stop this is a good thing".

    They are proper baddies at this point; there may be shades of grey on a micro level no the ground but on a macro level, which is all that we can really see, it's bad vs not bad, so I'll back not bad 100% - without hesitation.

    This only ends with Russians returning back over the border and agreeing to stop shooting or blowing Ukrainians up.
    As somebody who grew up with the ever present threat of Russian tanks rolling across Germany to get to channel ports then the destruction of the Russian military machine is nothing but good news, however...

    you never ponder the validity of the Russian claim to the Donbass or Crimea?
    Whilst Zelensky is a GOAT in inspirational leadership term do you not think you are being played like a banjo?
    Somewhere there are a lot of Ukranian young men missing limbs and their gentlemen's bits why not try and find some reporting about them and it might help you understand the horror of war
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited October 2022
    I understand the horror of war alright, (in an abstract i've read about it rather than experienced it, kind of way - not gonna pretend I actually know what it is really like). I don't really understand your point? I have read various articles on the Ukrainian casualties. It's pretty awful, but what you gonna do? It's not like they're safe if the Russians turn up anyway. War is awful, we all know that, but sometimes fighting a war rather than surrendering is preferable, collectively.

    I don't really see any positive scenario that doesn't revolve around total Russian military defeat. At all.

    Aggressors need to be punished severely and humiliating dictators who go around trying to invade and pillaging countries is 100% the right way to deal with them.
    _
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,472
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    What I like about NAFO is it’s the same idea the Russians came up with re information warfare, but it’s just an up-to-date version that realises the value of humour.

    Russian efforts are stuck in 1982.

    I’m no doubt swallowing a lot of Ukrainian propoganda, and I’m OK with it - that’s when you know it’s working.

    I am surprised that you are not trying to be more objective
    I'm convinced the war crimes committed by Russians that are reported on by the mainstream press are indeed real.

    Beyond that, my position is "anything that works to stop this is a good thing".

    They are proper baddies at this point; there may be shades of grey on a micro level no the ground but on a macro level, which is all that we can really see, it's bad vs not bad, so I'll back not bad 100% - without hesitation.

    This only ends with Russians returning back over the border and agreeing to stop shooting or blowing Ukrainians up.
    As somebody who grew up with the ever present threat of Russian tanks rolling across Germany to get to channel ports then the destruction of the Russian military machine is nothing but good news, however...

    you never ponder the validity of the Russian claim to the Donbass or Crimea?
    Whilst Zelensky is a GOAT in inspirational leadership term do you not think you are being played like a banjo?
    Somewhere there are a lot of Ukranian young men missing limbs and their gentlemen's bits why not try and find some reporting about them and it might help you understand the horror of war
    F***ing hell, SC. The what exactly?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,233
    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    What I like about NAFO is it’s the same idea the Russians came up with re information warfare, but it’s just an up-to-date version that realises the value of humour.

    Russian efforts are stuck in 1982.

    I’m no doubt swallowing a lot of Ukrainian propoganda, and I’m OK with it - that’s when you know it’s working.

    I am surprised that you are not trying to be more objective
    I'm convinced the war crimes committed by Russians that are reported on by the mainstream press are indeed real.

    Beyond that, my position is "anything that works to stop this is a good thing".

    They are proper baddies at this point; there may be shades of grey on a micro level no the ground but on a macro level, which is all that we can really see, it's bad vs not bad, so I'll back not bad 100% - without hesitation.

    This only ends with Russians returning back over the border and agreeing to stop shooting or blowing Ukrainians up.
    As somebody who grew up with the ever present threat of Russian tanks rolling across Germany to get to channel ports then the destruction of the Russian military machine is nothing but good news, however...

    you never ponder the validity of the Russian claim to the Donbass or Crimea?
    Whilst Zelensky is a GOAT in inspirational leadership term do you not think you are being played like a banjo?
    Somewhere there are a lot of Ukranian young men missing limbs and their gentlemen's bits why not try and find some reporting about them and it might help you understand the horror of war
    F***ing hell, SC. The what exactly?

    Maybe he's going all Focuszing on us and thinks that Musk has a point.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    What I like about NAFO is it’s the same idea the Russians came up with re information warfare, but it’s just an up-to-date version that realises the value of humour.

    Russian efforts are stuck in 1982.

    I’m no doubt swallowing a lot of Ukrainian propoganda, and I’m OK with it - that’s when you know it’s working.

    I am surprised that you are not trying to be more objective
    I'm convinced the war crimes committed by Russians that are reported on by the mainstream press are indeed real.

    Beyond that, my position is "anything that works to stop this is a good thing".

    They are proper baddies at this point; there may be shades of grey on a micro level no the ground but on a macro level, which is all that we can really see, it's bad vs not bad, so I'll back not bad 100% - without hesitation.

    This only ends with Russians returning back over the border and agreeing to stop shooting or blowing Ukrainians up.
    As somebody who grew up with the ever present threat of Russian tanks rolling across Germany to get to channel ports then the destruction of the Russian military machine is nothing but good news, however...

    you never ponder the validity of the Russian claim to the Donbass or Crimea?
    Whilst Zelensky is a GOAT in inspirational leadership term do you not think you are being played like a banjo?
    Somewhere there are a lot of Ukranian young men missing limbs and their gentlemen's bits why not try and find some reporting about them and it might help you understand the horror of war
    F***ing hell, SC. The what exactly?
    Crimea was only transferred from Russia to Ukraine in 1954 when both were part of the Soviet Union and most people there consider themselves Russian. Knowing this helps understand why Russia thinks it has a claim. Surely it is as important as understanding it's strategic importance.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,264
    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    What I like about NAFO is it’s the same idea the Russians came up with re information warfare, but it’s just an up-to-date version that realises the value of humour.

    Russian efforts are stuck in 1982.

    I’m no doubt swallowing a lot of Ukrainian propoganda, and I’m OK with it - that’s when you know it’s working.

    I am surprised that you are not trying to be more objective
    I'm convinced the war crimes committed by Russians that are reported on by the mainstream press are indeed real.

    Beyond that, my position is "anything that works to stop this is a good thing".

    They are proper baddies at this point; there may be shades of grey on a micro level no the ground but on a macro level, which is all that we can really see, it's bad vs not bad, so I'll back not bad 100% - without hesitation.

    This only ends with Russians returning back over the border and agreeing to stop shooting or blowing Ukrainians up.
    As somebody who grew up with the ever present threat of Russian tanks rolling across Germany to get to channel ports then the destruction of the Russian military machine is nothing but good news, however...

    you never ponder the validity of the Russian claim to the Donbass or Crimea?
    Whilst Zelensky is a GOAT in inspirational leadership term do you not think you are being played like a banjo?
    Somewhere there are a lot of Ukranian young men missing limbs and their gentlemen's bits why not try and find some reporting about them and it might help you understand the horror of war
    F***ing hell, SC. The what exactly?
    Crimea was only transferred from Russia to Ukraine in 1954 when both were part of the Soviet Union and most people there consider themselves Russian. Knowing this helps understand why Russia thinks it has a claim. Surely it is as important as understanding it's strategic importance.
    Nigh on 70 years ago.
    Way past any acceptable statute of limitation.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    It voted for Ukrainian independence…
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,854
    rick_chasey said:

    It voted for Ukrainian independence…

    They were quite keen on independence from Ukraine in the early 90s.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    It voted for Ukrainian independence…

    They were quite keen on independence from Ukraine in the early 90s.
    So keen that they voted for independence for Russia in 1991?
    _
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,233
    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    It voted for Ukrainian independence…

    They were quite keen on independence from Ukraine in the early 90s.

    I think that their views might have evolved since then, and I suspect will be less likely to favour independence given the actions of the Russians. Also unlikely to trust Russia for a couple of generations, at least, despite the Russians' attempts to Russify it since 2014.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    pblakeney said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    What I like about NAFO is it’s the same idea the Russians came up with re information warfare, but it’s just an up-to-date version that realises the value of humour.

    Russian efforts are stuck in 1982.

    I’m no doubt swallowing a lot of Ukrainian propoganda, and I’m OK with it - that’s when you know it’s working.

    I am surprised that you are not trying to be more objective
    I'm convinced the war crimes committed by Russians that are reported on by the mainstream press are indeed real.

    Beyond that, my position is "anything that works to stop this is a good thing".

    They are proper baddies at this point; there may be shades of grey on a micro level no the ground but on a macro level, which is all that we can really see, it's bad vs not bad, so I'll back not bad 100% - without hesitation.

    This only ends with Russians returning back over the border and agreeing to stop shooting or blowing Ukrainians up.
    As somebody who grew up with the ever present threat of Russian tanks rolling across Germany to get to channel ports then the destruction of the Russian military machine is nothing but good news, however...

    you never ponder the validity of the Russian claim to the Donbass or Crimea?
    Whilst Zelensky is a GOAT in inspirational leadership term do you not think you are being played like a banjo?
    Somewhere there are a lot of Ukranian young men missing limbs and their gentlemen's bits why not try and find some reporting about them and it might help you understand the horror of war
    F***ing hell, SC. The what exactly?
    Crimea was only transferred from Russia to Ukraine in 1954 when both were part of the Soviet Union and most people there consider themselves Russian. Knowing this helps understand why Russia thinks it has a claim. Surely it is as important as understanding it's strategic importance.
    Nigh on 70 years ago.
    Way past any acceptable statute of limitation.
    We justify keeping Gibraltar by quoting the Treaty of Utrecht 1713
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,854
    edited October 2022
    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    It voted for Ukrainian independence…

    They were quite keen on independence from Ukraine in the early 90s.
    So keen that they voted for independence for Russia in 1991?
    They voted for independence from Ukraine and to be part of a new USSR.

    "Do you support re-establishing the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic as a subject of the Union SSR and a participant of the Union Treaty?"
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,472
    surrey_commuter said:

    pblakeney said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    What I like about NAFO is it’s the same idea the Russians came up with re information warfare, but it’s just an up-to-date version that realises the value of humour.

    Russian efforts are stuck in 1982.

    I’m no doubt swallowing a lot of Ukrainian propoganda, and I’m OK with it - that’s when you know it’s working.

    I am surprised that you are not trying to be more objective
    I'm convinced the war crimes committed by Russians that are reported on by the mainstream press are indeed real.

    Beyond that, my position is "anything that works to stop this is a good thing".

    They are proper baddies at this point; there may be shades of grey on a micro level no the ground but on a macro level, which is all that we can really see, it's bad vs not bad, so I'll back not bad 100% - without hesitation.

    This only ends with Russians returning back over the border and agreeing to stop shooting or blowing Ukrainians up.
    As somebody who grew up with the ever present threat of Russian tanks rolling across Germany to get to channel ports then the destruction of the Russian military machine is nothing but good news, however...

    you never ponder the validity of the Russian claim to the Donbass or Crimea?
    Whilst Zelensky is a GOAT in inspirational leadership term do you not think you are being played like a banjo?
    Somewhere there are a lot of Ukranian young men missing limbs and their gentlemen's bits why not try and find some reporting about them and it might help you understand the horror of war
    F***ing hell, SC. The what exactly?
    Crimea was only transferred from Russia to Ukraine in 1954 when both were part of the Soviet Union and most people there consider themselves Russian. Knowing this helps understand why Russia thinks it has a claim. Surely it is as important as understanding it's strategic importance.
    Nigh on 70 years ago.
    Way past any acceptable statute of limitation.
    We justify keeping Gibraltar by quoting the Treaty of Utrecht 1713
    There's no current treaty treaty transferring Crimea to Russia. They invaded. Because they want control of the Black Sea. They don't GAF what the locals think.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    It voted for Ukrainian independence…

    They were quite keen on independence from Ukraine in the early 90s.
    So keen that they voted for independence for Russia in 1991?
    They voted for independence from Ukraine and to be part of a new USSR.

    "Do you support re-establishing the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic as a subject of the Union SSR and a participant of the Union Treaty?"
    Eh?
    In 1991 Crimea was given the status of an autonomous republic, and Crimeans supported the vote for Ukrainian independence (albeit by a small majority - I think 52-48, naturally).
    _
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,264
    edited October 2022
    surrey_commuter said:

    pblakeney said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    What I like about NAFO is it’s the same idea the Russians came up with re information warfare, but it’s just an up-to-date version that realises the value of humour.

    Russian efforts are stuck in 1982.

    I’m no doubt swallowing a lot of Ukrainian propoganda, and I’m OK with it - that’s when you know it’s working.

    I am surprised that you are not trying to be more objective
    I'm convinced the war crimes committed by Russians that are reported on by the mainstream press are indeed real.

    Beyond that, my position is "anything that works to stop this is a good thing".

    They are proper baddies at this point; there may be shades of grey on a micro level no the ground but on a macro level, which is all that we can really see, it's bad vs not bad, so I'll back not bad 100% - without hesitation.

    This only ends with Russians returning back over the border and agreeing to stop shooting or blowing Ukrainians up.
    As somebody who grew up with the ever present threat of Russian tanks rolling across Germany to get to channel ports then the destruction of the Russian military machine is nothing but good news, however...

    you never ponder the validity of the Russian claim to the Donbass or Crimea?
    Whilst Zelensky is a GOAT in inspirational leadership term do you not think you are being played like a banjo?
    Somewhere there are a lot of Ukranian young men missing limbs and their gentlemen's bits why not try and find some reporting about them and it might help you understand the horror of war
    F***ing hell, SC. The what exactly?
    Crimea was only transferred from Russia to Ukraine in 1954 when both were part of the Soviet Union and most people there consider themselves Russian. Knowing this helps understand why Russia thinks it has a claim. Surely it is as important as understanding it's strategic importance.
    Nigh on 70 years ago.
    Way past any acceptable statute of limitation.
    We justify keeping Gibraltar by quoting the Treaty of Utrecht 1713
    I'd ask the people of Gibraltar (excluding military) personally. Seems a nonsense to be part of UK to me but strategic militarily. My opinion on the matter means diddly.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,854
    edited October 2022
    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    It voted for Ukrainian independence…

    They were quite keen on independence from Ukraine in the early 90s.
    So keen that they voted for independence for Russia in 1991?
    They voted for independence from Ukraine and to be part of a new USSR.

    "Do you support re-establishing the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic as a subject of the Union SSR and a participant of the Union Treaty?"
    Eh?
    In 1991 Crimea was given the status of an autonomous republic, and Crimeans supported the vote for Ukrainian independence (albeit by a small majority - I think 52-48, naturally).
    That was the question. Further reading.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_referendum
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    It voted for Ukrainian independence…

    They were quite keen on independence from Ukraine in the early 90s.
    So keen that they voted for independence for Russia in 1991?
    They voted for independence from Ukraine and to be part of a new USSR.

    "Do you support re-establishing the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic as a subject of the Union SSR and a participant of the Union Treaty?"
    Eh?
    In 1991 Crimea was given the status of an autonomous republic, and Crimeans supported the vote for Ukrainian independence (albeit by a small majority - I think 52-48, naturally).
    That was the question. Further reading.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_referendum
    You will get no traction on here for respecting the results of a referendum
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,472
    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    It voted for Ukrainian independence…

    They were quite keen on independence from Ukraine in the early 90s.
    So keen that they voted for independence for Russia in 1991?
    They voted for independence from Ukraine and to be part of a new USSR.

    "Do you support re-establishing the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic as a subject of the Union SSR and a participant of the Union Treaty?"
    Eh?
    In 1991 Crimea was given the status of an autonomous republic, and Crimeans supported the vote for Ukrainian independence (albeit by a small majority - I think 52-48, naturally).
    That was the question. Further reading.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_referendum
    You will get no traction on here for respecting the results of a referendum
    Did the referendum lead to a treaty or declaration? Without that it's just an opinion poll.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,233
    It would be delightful timing if 'whoever' did the first bombing could manage to do a more accurate repeat, on the shipping channel arches, in the spring.

    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,098
    briantrumpet said:

    It would be delightful timing if 'whoever' did the first bombing could manage to do a more accurate repeat, on the shipping channel arches, in the spring.

    Suspect they will wait until there are clearer signs that Russia has run low on missiles.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,460
    I thought it was only minor damage and would be back in action within days according to their previous propoganda.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,098
    Didn't say how many days. 150 or so is still days.
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,096


    So, I guess everybody must be in agreement, Musk is a top bloke.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    focuszing723 said:



    So, I guess everybody must be in agreement, Musk is a top bloke. Especially when he lets me cover him in salt and I can lick it off.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Russia doing the modern equivalent of V1 rockets on Kiev now with drones.

    Utterly pointless. Serves absolutely no purpose, it's just spiteful.
    _
  • thegreatdivide
    thegreatdivide Posts: 5,807
    V1 killers. Crazy!

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,233
    This is a very good read, from Fiona Hill, Trump's one-time adviser on Russia, turned critic/witness. Lots of nuance and insight.

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/10/17/fiona-hill-putin-war-00061894
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Reynolds: If Putin wants Ukrainian territory so badly, why is he raining down such destruction on civilian areas and committing so many human rights abuses in occupied areas?

    Hill: This is punishment, but also perverse redevelopment. You cow people into submission, destroy what they had and all their links to their past and their old lives, and then make them into something new and, thus, yours. Destroy Ukraine and Ukrainians. Build New Russia and create Russians. Its brutal but also a hallmark of imperial conquest.

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