Poo tin... Put@in...
Comments
-
He needs to be able to threaten NATO countries to be credible. In essence he needs to have his missiles placed so that he can strike NATO countries in Europe, hence creating a balance that he feels he is lacking.rick_chasey said:
My worry is there is no good logic for Russia to do this so the logic of Putin stopping with just Ukraine is not a given.
To be fair, when Cuba began to arm itself, the US tried to overthrow the regime... only difference is the USSR didn't just threaten economic sanctions, so the attempt was half hearted.
left the forum March 20230 -
So on the SWIFT stuff,
I’ll suggest everyone here is b) and certainly not c).
(me included, I don't really know what SWIFT)0 -
If Russia's economy falters and they become bogged down in Ukraine, will China support a lame duck?
seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
-
It makes it much harder to pay for stuff such as energy, so Russian may respond by cutting off supplies. It's odd to suggest that all the western countries except Germany, Italy and Belgium are ignorant or trolling.rick_chasey said:So on the SWIFT stuff,
I’ll suggest everyone here is b) and certainly not c).
(me included, I don't really know what SWIFT)
It can't be that hard to criticise Germany.0 -
It does seem to me that Germany needs to stop using Russian gas, pretty immediately.0
-
It's certainly making those mini Rolls-Royce reactors look more appealing to me now.0
-
One of the UK's jobs today is to persuade other countries to kick Russia out of swift says Ben Wallace.0
-
I'm still waiting on Cern to create abundant cheap power with their Bosons' n things.0
-
Can't the EU just do the equivalent of what the US did but for Euros? That seems much more punitive.TheBigBean said:
It makes it much harder to pay for stuff such as energy, so Russian may respond by cutting off supplies. It's odd to suggest that all the western countries except Germany, Italy and Belgium are ignorant or trolling.rick_chasey said:So on the SWIFT stuff,
I’ll suggest everyone here is b) and certainly not c).
(me included, I don't really know what SWIFT)
It can't be that hard to criticise Germany.0 -
The US has always claimed jurisdiction over all dollar denominated trades whereas the eurozone members haven't. Presumably it is harder as the EU doesn't have criminal courts, so it would involve 26 countries claiming jurisdiction. So, my guess is they could probably do it eventually, but it will be harder.rick_chasey said:
Can't the EU just do the equivalent of what the US did but for Euros? That seems much more punitive.TheBigBean said:
It makes it much harder to pay for stuff such as energy, so Russian may respond by cutting off supplies. It's odd to suggest that all the western countries except Germany, Italy and Belgium are ignorant or trolling.rick_chasey said:So on the SWIFT stuff,
I’ll suggest everyone here is b) and certainly not c).
(me included, I don't really know what SWIFT)
It can't be that hard to criticise Germany.1 -
-
Nope, it is more the ridiculous way they talk about solidarity and prayers as though that is going to help in any way. It took them until the eve of the invasion to even mount relatively minor sanctions that we discussed as an obvious first step on here a few weeks ago and even now there is a reluctance to go for more severe sanctions by a lot of these countries that are lighting their public buildings in pretty colours.rick_chasey said:
You mock but you wanna send UK troops over?Pross said:
Don't forget that countries are lighting up their buildings blue and yellow in solidarity and Biden sent his prayers so all is good. There has even been strongly worded Tweets which is the 21st century equivalent of a nuclear strike.TheBigBean said:
Ukraine seems keen on swift sanctions.rick_chasey said:
SWIFT seems very small fry surely. I appreciate its a anti-EU hobby horse.TheBigBean said:After bravely choosing to not use an unused pipeline, Germany seem to have blocked taking action on swift payments.
Italians are also worried about their handbags, Belgians diamonds, and the UK its lawyers and financiers
Sberbank being locked out the US correspondent banking network is several orders of magnitude bigger. That was a big US flex - not sure it has happened before.
Germans should be more preoccupied with tooling up.
Yes Italy and Belgium objected as well. The UK and US supported the action as did much of the EU.
Still, that unused pipeline is not being used which will have Putin worried.
West generally hasn't got its head around the situation yet; it's not always straightforward switching quickly into a new paradigm where the issues are of several orders of magnitude more important then you've been handling your entire career.
I believe the West will get there but it's not gonna get there overnight. You would think that attitudes will harden as the reality sets in and more people get their head around the new paradigm.
I still think the UN is finished after this. Russia is chairing the security committee - it's a different world now and it will take governments to get their head around the new world.
We're all in shock about this - it's not been since since WW2 in Europe - and that was pretty f*cking awful, and that applies to governments too. The dust will settle eventually and we'll hopefully come around to a response.
Problem is, ultimately it involves credible deterrents which you will have to be prepared to use, and that's awful for a lot of reasons.
They may as well have been honest and said 'good luck but if you get invaded you are on your own as we aren't risking a fight with a paranoid psycho with nucleur weapons'.
These countries are happy to throw their military weight around against the likes of Iraq when they invade a neighbour but have shown they are (understandably) more or less toothless when the bullies are as big and more mental than them.0 -
From my limited experience of sanctions (Iran) it does not matter what anybody else does as the US enforces the sanctions it applies. So your UK bank will not accept payment from Iran and your CEO will have given a legal undertaking that it will not happen in a circuitous route.
NATO is irrelevant, it is what the US does that matters and theyare not going to put put troops into Ukraine. Will be interesting to see if they put thousands into Lithuania to block the route to Kaliningrad.
After the intial attack wiped out their air defences i am starting to think that Ukraine should have surrendered to keep their people alive and infrastructure intact. Even if they blow every brdige and fight tothe last man the outcome will be the same.0 -
Nothing much has changed with the average Russian soldier. They are vastly underpaid, under trained and a lot of them really don't want to be there. Once the guerrilla war starts (with the help of the West - back to the old mujahedeen days) it's going to be a whole lot of grim. It's not fighting the fascists hordes for the Motherland in 1943 anymore.
0 -
China are probably watching this thinking they can strike a great deal with Russia for all the oil and gas they need whilst also examining the likely international response that will follow if they decide they want to expand their territory. Getting them on board would probably make all the difference but they obviously won't.0
-
Sporting bodies are a joke as well. I couldn't believe that F1 hadn't cancelled the Russian GP as soon as this happened or that UEFA needed to meet today to discuss the European Cup final venue.0
-
Pross said:
Sporting bodies are a joke as well. I couldn't believe that F1 hadn't cancelled the Russian GP as soon as this happened or that UEFA needed to meet today to discuss the European Cup final venue.
The European Broadcasting Union (EBU) has come under fire for announcing it plans to allow Russia to participate in the Eurovision Song Contest this year.https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/eurovision/eurovision-russia-ukraine-war-2022-b2023093.html
On Thursday (24 February), Eurovision said it had no intention of banning Russia from competing
Christ, don't forget the Eurovision song contest!0 -
I'm guessing they won't get their usual high marks from the Ukrainian jury (or some others in the area).0
-
Entirely depends on the collective willingness to fight - and lots of thins feed into that. If they're frightened of what the Russians will do when they're there, that can easily stiffen the resolve. It is after all, their own country - defending your homeland is just different and I can't even imagine what the weigh up must be. You don't need *that* many people to take up arms.surrey_commuter said:
After the intial attack wiped out their air defences i am starting to think that Ukraine should have surrendered to keep their people alive and infrastructure intact. Even if they blow every brdige and fight tothe last man the outcome will be the same.
If the Ukranians decide to retreat and fight urban warfare against the Russians they can make the war incredibly costly for everyone, and it would be extremely bloody, but of course, it is just so incredibly destructive, but the price to win it for the Russians would be astronomical.
I'm not suggesting they should - I can't really put myself in their shoes and say they should do this or that. I don't even know how I would react if my country was invaded like that.0 -
Well on the plus side, we might not be at the bottom anymore for stupidly weakening the EU.Pross said:I'm guessing they won't get their usual high marks from the Ukrainian jury (or some others in the area).
Although I can be flippant (because it's crazy too comprehend), I do have real empathy for all the people involved who just want to get on with their lives and make the best of it.0 -
Yep, I think 2 years ago we got the closest (I hope) we'll ever get to discovering how we'd cope in a war situation albeit without our homes under constant threat of destruction and I don't think it reflected very well. You see these people being interviewed on TV who have already lost everything once fleeing places like Donetsk and are now having to go through it again.focuszing723 said:
Well on the plus side, we might not be at the bottom anymore for stupidly weakening the EU.Pross said:I'm guessing they won't get their usual high marks from the Ukrainian jury (or some others in the area).
Although I can be flippant (because it's crazy to comprehend), I do have real empathy for all the people involved who just want to get on with their lives and make the best of it.
No doubt many in our country will be opposed to us providing them with refuge though and will label them as scroungers looking for an easy life on benefits.0 -
But you are talking about making a Russian win more costly. In doing that the Ukranians are making their loss greaterrick_chasey said:
Entirely depends on the collective willingness to fight - and lots of thins feed into that. If they're frightened of what the Russians will do when they're there, that can easily stiffen the resolve. It is after all, their own country - defending your homeland is just different and I can't even imagine what the weigh up must be. You don't need *that* many people to take up arms.surrey_commuter said:
After the intial attack wiped out their air defences i am starting to think that Ukraine should have surrendered to keep their people alive and infrastructure intact. Even if they blow every brdige and fight tothe last man the outcome will be the same.
If the Ukranians decide to retreat and fight urban warfare against the Russians they can make the war incredibly costly for everyone, and it would be extremely bloody, but of course, it is just so incredibly destructive, but the price to win it for the Russians would be astronomical.
I'm not suggesting they should - I can't really put myself in their shoes and say they should do this or that. I don't even know how I would react if my country was invaded like that.0 -
Apologies if I missed it but what happened to you 2 years ago?Pross said:
Yep, I think 2 years ago we got the closest (I hope) we'll ever get to discovering how we'd cope in a war situation albeit without our homes under constant threat of destruction and I don't think it reflected very well. You see these people being interviewed on TV who have already lost everything once fleeing places like Donetsk and are now having to go through it again.focuszing723 said:
Well on the plus side, we might not be at the bottom anymore for stupidly weakening the EU.Pross said:I'm guessing they won't get their usual high marks from the Ukrainian jury (or some others in the area).
Although I can be flippant (because it's crazy to comprehend), I do have real empathy for all the people involved who just want to get on with their lives and make the best of it.
No doubt many in our country will be opposed to us providing them with refuge though and will label them as scroungers looking for an easy life on benefits.0 -
Poor wording on my part no doubt. I'm not suggesting it is anything like the same thing but I think those initial stages of the pandemic where people were quite panicky and we had queues for food and impact on our daily lives are, fortunately, the closest we've been to being in a country at war in my lifetime (as I said, without the daily risk to your property). I don't think many of us coped very well so when that is multiplied by however many times as it is in a war zone it always surpises me how resilient many of the people are.surrey_commuter said:
Apologies if I missed it but what happened to you 2 years ago?Pross said:
Yep, I think 2 years ago we got the closest (I hope) we'll ever get to discovering how we'd cope in a war situation albeit without our homes under constant threat of destruction and I don't think it reflected very well. You see these people being interviewed on TV who have already lost everything once fleeing places like Donetsk and are now having to go through it again.focuszing723 said:
Well on the plus side, we might not be at the bottom anymore for stupidly weakening the EU.Pross said:I'm guessing they won't get their usual high marks from the Ukrainian jury (or some others in the area).
Although I can be flippant (because it's crazy to comprehend), I do have real empathy for all the people involved who just want to get on with their lives and make the best of it.
No doubt many in our country will be opposed to us providing them with refuge though and will label them as scroungers looking for an easy life on benefits.
I know they don't have much choice and in many war zones have had hardship all their lives (less so in Ukraine I suspect) but when you think about how people talk about the impact on mental health the pandemic had I just don't know how these people get through each day.0 -
Military history fascinates me and have read and watched rather too much over the years but I would say that your comparison is completely wrong. It sounds glib to say that your family ending up in a war zone is a thousand times worse but the two are really not comparable. One is rockets and shells raining down on buildings randomly killing families and the other is staying indoors watching Netflix.Pross said:
Poor wording on my part no doubt. I'm not suggesting it is anything like the same thing but I think those initial stages of the pandemic where people were quite panicky and we had queues for food and impact on our daily lives are, fortunately, the closest we've been to being in a country at war in my lifetime (as I said, without the daily risk to your property). I don't think many of us coped very well so when that is multiplied by however many times as it is in a war zone it always surpises me how resilient many of the people are.surrey_commuter said:
Apologies if I missed it but what happened to you 2 years ago?Pross said:
Yep, I think 2 years ago we got the closest (I hope) we'll ever get to discovering how we'd cope in a war situation albeit without our homes under constant threat of destruction and I don't think it reflected very well. You see these people being interviewed on TV who have already lost everything once fleeing places like Donetsk and are now having to go through it again.focuszing723 said:
Well on the plus side, we might not be at the bottom anymore for stupidly weakening the EU.Pross said:I'm guessing they won't get their usual high marks from the Ukrainian jury (or some others in the area).
Although I can be flippant (because it's crazy to comprehend), I do have real empathy for all the people involved who just want to get on with their lives and make the best of it.
No doubt many in our country will be opposed to us providing them with refuge though and will label them as scroungers looking for an easy life on benefits.
I know they don't have much choice and in many war zones have had hardship all their lives (less so in Ukraine I suspect) but when you think about how people talk about the impact on mental health the pandemic had I just don't know how these people get through each day.
I work with a Lithuanian and she is more worried about the impact of a Russian invasion on her family than she ever was about Covid. Imagine what that is like for a Ukranian.
A I say above in many ways they would do better not fighting a war they can not win.0 -
I disagree.surrey_commuter said:
A I say above in many ways they would do better not fighting a war they can not win.
Surrendering would have a different outcome to fighting to the last man... the longer the war goes on, the worse it will be for Russia and the better Ukraine will get out of it in the long run. If they give up now, they will be incorporated into Russia and within 20 years the maps will be rewritten. If they don't, there is a good chance that some kind of agreement will be reached, whereby they will retain some independence.
left the forum March 20230 -
How they cope?
They drink a lot. Alcoholism is a massive issue in FSU countries.0 -
.0
-
Of course. That's with any fight.surrey_commuter said:
But you are talking about making a Russian win more costly. In doing that the Ukranians are making their loss greaterrick_chasey said:
Entirely depends on the collective willingness to fight - and lots of thins feed into that. If they're frightened of what the Russians will do when they're there, that can easily stiffen the resolve. It is after all, their own country - defending your homeland is just different and I can't even imagine what the weigh up must be. You don't need *that* many people to take up arms.surrey_commuter said:
After the intial attack wiped out their air defences i am starting to think that Ukraine should have surrendered to keep their people alive and infrastructure intact. Even if they blow every brdige and fight tothe last man the outcome will be the same.
If the Ukranians decide to retreat and fight urban warfare against the Russians they can make the war incredibly costly for everyone, and it would be extremely bloody, but of course, it is just so incredibly destructive, but the price to win it for the Russians would be astronomical.
I'm not suggesting they should - I can't really put myself in their shoes and say they should do this or that. I don't even know how I would react if my country was invaded like that.0
