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Vuelta Stage 15 *Spoilers*

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  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    ddraver wrote:
    More than a few supposedly independent (if there is such a thing) journos let their true colours show is all.

    we need a list... :wink:
  • Its a well known fact the Spaniards and Spanish speaking riders stick together at some point in the Vuelta
    Is it now? I haven’t seen much evidence of that.
  • Mad_MalxMad_Malx Posts: 4,369
    Its a well known fact the Spaniards and Spanish speaking riders stick together at some point in the Vuelta
    Is it now? I haven’t seen much evidence of that.

    Until recently Valverde has had difficulty sticking together with Spanish-speaking riders on his own team.
  • Mad_MalxMad_Malx Posts: 4,369
    I don't like Contador

    Even if the win is beyond Bertie, why would he not go for a podium place (at Froome and Chaves' expense)?
  • Tough day for Valverde:

    CrmASQKWYAA0alx.jpg:large
  • It's a pity Chaves doesn't speak Spanish, or he could have got an invite to the party too.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • ocdupalaisocdupalais Posts: 3,947
    professeur wrote:
    Tough day for Valverde:

    CrmASQKWYAA0alx.jpg:large

    So tough he couldn't wait for dinner and has eaten Simon Yates straight off his bike
  • ocdupalaisocdupalais Posts: 3,947
    Ol' Bertie's a one, ain't he!?
    Great racer and all that - but his quote about racing in a way that attracts new fans (as opposed to, say, being banned for 2 years and having victories stripped) is so knowing. He's like the lead guitarist who senses the crowd aren't loving him so much - so he tells the stage-hand to fire up the wind machine - before launching into another flamboyant solo with a foot up on the monitor amp, teeth out and silly coloured plasters like Coldplay.
  • OCDuPalais wrote:
    Ol' Bertie's a one, ain't he!?
    Great racer and all that - but his quote about racing in a way that attracts new fans (as opposed to, say, being banned for 2 years and having victories stripped) is so knowing. He's like the lead guitarist who senses the crowd aren't loving him so much - so he tells the stage-hand to fire up the wind machine - before launching into another flamboyant solo with a foot up on the monitor amp, teeth out and silly coloured plasters like Coldplay.

    :lol:
    Correlation is not causation.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,493
    I rewatched the first few kilometres of this race and it didn't actually pan out as we have assumed.

    After the initial split, Froome, Chavez and three others did actually manage to bridge across to Quintana/Contador as the screen grab below shows.

    It turns out what actually caused the decisive split was Tosh van der Sande crashing on the descent soon after when Tinkoff nailed it at the front.

    HfRCqn1.png
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    RichN95 wrote:
    I rewatched the first few kilometres of this race and it didn't actually pan out as we have assumed.

    After the initial split, Froome, Chavez and three others did actually manage to bridge across to Quintana/Contador as the screen grab below shows.

    It turns out what actually caused the decisive split was Tosh van der Sande crashing on the descent soon after when Tinkoff nailed it at the front.

    HfRCqn1.png

    And when the split happened Froome was left isolated without enough team mates around to chase it down...
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,599
    Bl00dy Spanish speaking mafia taking advantage of a crash to drop the Anglophiles (Chaves rides for an English speaking team and always does his interviews in English). I was waiting for this and was expecting it to happen earlier. Damn cheating foreigners, thank God for Brexit!
  • I’m trying to understand David López’s performance from a xenophobic perspective. Any suggestions?
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,599
    Spent too long on an English team the same as Landa and Nieve.
  • Pross wrote:
    Bl00dy Spanish speaking mafia taking advantage of a crash to drop the Anglophiles (Chaves rides for an English speaking team and always does his interviews in English). I was waiting for this and was expecting it to happen earlier. Damn cheating foreigners, thank God for Brexit!

    Good one! - how are our brave British lads supposed to compete..?
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,599
    Obviously the Veulta should be replaced as the 3rd GT by the Tour of Britain and no foreign teams should be allowed to enter.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,061
    I was thinking about sanctions that perhaps they could introduce to discourage riders from forming a large enough group, so that elimination is impossible. How about preventing any rider from winning a stage in the next 1/2/3 stages? That is, they would still be of use to their teams, but if they were looking to ride slowly to win the following day the strategy wouldn't work.
  • The jury should have given 71 riders who finish inside the limit an English test and if the failed, thrown them out as a warning to the naughty 90.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    Well Froome is clearly so unimpressed with his team that he thinks they all should have been cut...
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome- ... -excluded/
  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,210
    Maybe they could impose "Virtual Elimination" i.e. they still ride in the race but all further finishes or points in the jersey comps are forfeit including any already accrued. Any further infringements in time mean full removal from the race.

    It would have stopped the top ten dead in their tracks yesterday or encouraged them to get their arses in gear on Sunday.
  • Mad_MalxMad_Malx Posts: 4,369
    dish_dash wrote:
    Well Froome is clearly so unimpressed with his team that he thinks they all should have been cut...
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome- ... -excluded/

    He should make them all ride behind him for the rest of the race.
  • I think in future they should just make it clear that is the rule and it will be enforced, the vast majority of those riders could have made it if they had thought they might be chucked off the race. If they want to make exceptions hen it should be for riders who have suffered misfortune and who have clearly been trying - maybe if you crash and get distanced and have to ride on your own for 100k or something.

    I did think decimation might be an option - that way you don't lose the whole bunch but it provides a disincentive for big groups to take the piss - seems a bit random though.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,970
    hypster wrote:
    Maybe they could impose "Virtual Elimination" i.e. they still ride in the race but all further finishes or points in the jersey comps are forfeit including any already accrued. Any further infringements in time mean full removal from the race.

    It would have stopped the top ten dead in their tracks yesterday or encouraged them to get their arses in gear on Sunday.

    Surely most domestiques would just roll in hours later when they've done their work keeping their powder dry for the next day, stage after stage after stage?
  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,210
    Dinyull wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    Maybe they could impose "Virtual Elimination" i.e. they still ride in the race but all further finishes or points in the jersey comps are forfeit including any already accrued. Any further infringements in time mean full removal from the race.

    It would have stopped the top ten dead in their tracks yesterday or encouraged them to get their arses in gear on Sunday.

    Surely most domestiques would just roll in hours later when they've done their work keeping their powder dry for the next day, stage after stage after stage?

    No, as I said before, first time is a "yellow card" offence and they still ride in support of the team thereafter but with no stage, sprint or mountain points won. Offending riders could ride from that point on with yellow backed race numbers to show the rest of the peloton that they are "virtually" out of the race.

    Second time is a "red card" offence and they are off the race completely.

    I think some sort of system like that would focus the minds of most teams to make sure that they don't just roll in outside the time limit.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,061
    I think in future they should just make it clear that is the rule and it will be enforced, the vast majority of those riders could have made it if they had thought they might be chucked off the race. If they want to make exceptions hen it should be for riders who have suffered misfortune and who have clearly been trying - maybe if you crash and get distanced and have to ride on your own for 100k or something.

    I did think decimation might be an option - that way you don't lose the whole bunch but it provides a disincentive for big groups to take the wee-wee - seems a bit random though.

    The problem with emphasising the elimination is that it seems that was done when they removed the large group rule. The riders have therefore called their bluff and a precedent has been set.

    Decimation is a nice idea, but I would up the ratio (1 in 2/3 maybe) and suggest that killing is a touch over the top.
  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,970
    Ah, I missed that bit sorry.

    Haven't read the full thread, but surely this all comes down to the stages/race being too difficult?

    I mean when Meersman is winning the sprints because no real sprinters have been sent and yet big bunches of riders are missing the time limit then I'd imagine someone is trying to make a point.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,061
    hypster wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    Maybe they could impose "Virtual Elimination" i.e. they still ride in the race but all further finishes or points in the jersey comps are forfeit including any already accrued. Any further infringements in time mean full removal from the race.

    It would have stopped the top ten dead in their tracks yesterday or encouraged them to get their arses in gear on Sunday.

    Surely most domestiques would just roll in hours later when they've done their work keeping their powder dry for the next day, stage after stage after stage?

    No, as I said before, first time is a "yellow card" offence and they still ride in support of the team thereafter but with no stage, sprint or mountain points won. Offending riders could ride from that point on with yellow backed race numbers to show the rest of the peloton that they are "virtually" out of the race.

    Second time is a "red card" offence and they are off the race completely.

    I think some sort of system like that would focus the minds of most teams to make sure that they don't just roll in outside the time limit.

    This suggestion also has merits, but I think that any yellow carded sprinter would simply leave the race. If you time limited it to a number of stages then they would probably hang around.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,061
    Dinyull wrote:
    Ah, I missed that bit sorry.

    Haven't read the full thread, but surely this all comes down to the stages/race being too difficult?

    I mean when Meersman is winning the sprints because no real sprinters have been sent and yet big bunches of riders are missing the time limit then I'd imagine someone is trying to make a point.

    I suspect the point of the majority was that Sky should be chasing, and Sky's point was that it had become futile and so they were no longer going to chase. I imagine a while after the stand-off, they finally woke up and realised that they were going to miss the cut, so all chose to roll in.
  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,970
    Sorry if I'm a bit slow off the uptake, just back from holiday.

    Why was the emphasis on sky? Wasn't Froome up the road?
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,493
    With regard to time limits (sorry this is long).

    Everything I have read or heard on this matter in the last couple of days has focused on whether the rules should be applied and how riders should be punished, but little on whether the time limits rules are fit for purpose.

    Now the time limits are calculated according to coefficients and tables in the road book and are dependent on the winner's time. However, the conceit of this model is that stages almost always follow the same basic narrative - breakaway, tempo riding, chase and potential catch. And as long as the stage fits that narrative then the model works.

    However, occasionally the standard narrative isn't followed - like on Sunday where the GC riders attacked from the start and their was no 'tempo' section. In these situations the model ceases to work and common sense needs to be applied.

    A new system is needed to allow for such outlier stages. One in which the time limit is determined by both variables (winner's time) and absolutes (time of day).

    The time of day is important as that's why there are time limits - so organisers and public alike aren't held up unduly. On Sunday the autobus finished at 5.23pm. Yesterday they finished at 5.18pm. So the autobus on Sunday arrived at a logistically acceptable time, but because the time limit is set by variables, not absolutes, the time limit was unreasonably tight for little reason (as the winner was 15 minutes ahead of the fastest schedule).

    So here's the solution. For each stage a specific set time limit is set - using stage 15 as example, let's say 30 minutes. No sliding scales and calculations - it's 30 minutes. But the time limit is either 30 minutes after the winner or thirty minutes after the average schedule in the roadbook, which ever is later.

    The result is everyone knows exactly when they need to finish by, the system is safe guarded against bonkers days like Sunday, and no-one is accused of slacking off. If 100 miss those times, then they go home.
    Twitter: @RichN95
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