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Vuelta Stage 15 *Spoilers*

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  • salsiccia1salsiccia1 Posts: 3,718
    r0bh wrote:
    Sky DS Dario Cioni talked about some sort of crash which held up Froome or some other Sky riders at the time of the initial split - anyone know anything about this?

    But yeah, if Froome had glued himself to Quintana's back wheel none of this would have happened, regardless of the rest of his team.

    Collective mistake really, from Sky and Froome. But if you're Froome, who by now must be completely knackered, you're hoping that you can rely on your team but they just weren't up to it. Especially if there's 80 riders sitting on and basically saying 'you chase, we're not doing anything'.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • Froome will not give up, I think that much is certain. His team will be fresher than Movistar after their dawdle through the Spanish countryside yesterday. They need to attack Quintana today if possible
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,220
    Froome will not give up, I think that much is certain. His team will be fresher than Movistar after their dawdle through the Spanish countryside yesterday. They need to attack Quintana today if possible

    Yeah I hope Sky will try something. Could be an exciting last week as well.
  • andyracandyrac Posts: 626
    TheBigBean wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Is it really so hard for people to accept that Sky cocked up?

    Why is it always about Sky though? Froome messed up. He had one wheel to follow and didn't.

    OBE messed up too though. As apparently did Astana.

    I think it's as simple as this. They were poorly positioned at the start - what was that all about? Contador/ Tinkoff & Quintana/ Movistar at the front - but Froome/ Sky & OBE out the back, presumably daydreaming....

    It beggars belief they can be caught with their trousers down like that.

    However, hats off to Bertie for trying something again. His racing brain is still a razor sharp even if the legs aren't quite as willing....

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  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,210
    This obviously isn't the Sky A-team with no obvious, established road captain to marshall everyone into place and that showed big time. I think people also underestimate how much effort Froome put into stage 14 to counter Quintana and he was probably mentally as well as physically tired and not paying attention. I think that also showed the way they didn't take the breakawy seriously enough early on and seemed happy to let the gap lengthen thinking it could be pulled back.

    All credit to Contador and his team though and to Quintana for being alert to the threat. I did think Quintana looked a little tired himself on the final climb as he obviously wanted other riders to come through and help even though he had the most to gain.
  • "Ugh, three and a half minutes up with a week to go, what a boring race / GC over / Movistar have suffocated it, they're too strong, it gives no one else a chance / I prefer the Giro" .... etc.

    ; )
  • TheBigBean wrote:
    The commissaries can increase the time limit in "exceptional circumstances". Today's exceptional circumstances were that a large group of riders couldn't be bothered on a short not especially challenging stage which didn't involve any crashes or other such racing incidents.

    Hypothetically, lets say they'd thrown them off the race: how do we think the third week would pan out for this Vuelta?

    Any offers?

    The teams losing most riders would be seething at the injustice of it. Chris Froome would seize upon this feeling to lead a rebellion. At the start line tomorrow he would deliver a rabble rousing speech that Mel Gibson's Braveheart would be proud of, but with the panache and style of Johnny Depp's Jack Sparrow. Gathering a motley crew of riders from the following:

    Orica - GreenEdge 4
    Caja Rural 4
    AG2R 4
    Trek, Katusha, Etixx, IAM, BMC 3
    Dimension Data, Cofidis, Lotto-Soudal, Giant-Alpecin 2
    Sky, FDJ, Bora Argon, Lotto NL-Jumbo 1

    he would build himself a 40 man team with which he would savagely raid the remaining stages, distributing winnings evenly to all who ride with him. The Vuelta would be won easily.


    It's obvious, really.

    I really wish they'd DQ'd everyone now because the prospect of that would be just too good although I would suggest instead of the somewhat dodgy Mel Gibson as Braveheart more a Cate Blanchett as Elizabeth I against the Spanish Armada? There's lots of lovely white horses to be found in Spain and Froome looks more like Cate than Mel.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • Mad_Malx wrote:
    jawooga wrote:
    Does the cut apply to TT also? And thus, is it easier or more difficult to sit up and have a day off? I guess any domestique without a stake in the GC will take it easy and slow the average speed down.

    +25% I think. Bernie Eisel was about 15 secs from elimination in the short mountain tt stage 18 of the tour this year.

    Ever the pro is Bernie. He knows how to work a time cut so he does.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • "Ugh, three and a half minutes up with a week to go, what a boring race / GC over / Movistar have suffocated it, they're too strong, it gives no one else a chance / I prefer the Giro" .... etc.

    ; )

    Well, yes, there was also a very sizable part of the cyclo-twitter crowd, not too mention various forum spinning that view when the Tour went down.
    But hey, that's for a different time and a different rider.

    Good to read the majority here can give credit where it is due: to both respective riders and teams, regardless of strength or weakness and also criticise Sky for falling asleep at the wheel.
    I made the comment elsewhere, during race chat, that they had failed to learn the lesson of the previous day.
    It cost them dearly.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • I'm really interested how Sky respond to this, and how they try to come back. I'm unconvinced by Cioni as a creative DS but let's see what - if - they come up with to try
  • larkimlarkim Posts: 2,386
    If it comes down to psychology (or at least, if psychology can help boost physical performance), Movistar have this one in the bag. They'd be buzzing yesterday evening about their unexpected crushing of Sky, and equally I'd expect Sky to be feeling crushed.

    Now, perhaps Sky aren't seeing this the same way we all are - DB certainly seemed reasonably chipper yesterday post race. Perhaps the rested legs will give them something today.

    But most likely, not. They don't have the A team here to rescue this, and whilst I'm reluctant to read too much into appearances from behind a TV screen, Froome looked genuinely drained yesterday and definitely didn't get a rest yesterday.
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  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,070
    "Ugh, three and a half minutes up with a week to go, what a boring race / GC over / Movistar have suffocated it, they're too strong, it gives no one else a chance / I prefer the Giro" .... etc.

    ; )

    The problem with this is that the current leader is concerned he might lose 3 mins in the TT. He probably won't and he looks strong, but it is an open exciting race where things could still happen because there are still significant stages to come.

    Some tours are exciting, some Giros are boring, some Vueltas have a flat stage, but this year's tour was dull. I'm glad some people enjoyed it though.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,070
    Sage words from Inner Ring who is usually a keen student of the rulebook.
    91 riders were outside the time limit but let back in. There used to be a “safety in numbers” rule which said that if over 20% of the bunch finished outside the time limit they could remain in the race if the officials wanted it to be so. The rule was abandoned a while ago but deployed yesterday. Sensible? Yes in that a peloton of 70 riders would look stupid for the final week; no because it sets a precedent now that riders can ease up and roll in without worry; or at least hope for clemency when the rules don’t provide for it.
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    We need more photos...

    141212_7R9A9056.jpg
    Confirming the plan...

    Contador-escapes.jpg
    Best teeth in the peloton

    145427_20160904CYC38467.jpg
    Class...

    152829_20160904CYC38549.jpg


    172753_7R9A9168.jpg
  • cruffcruff Posts: 1,518
    dish_dash wrote:
    Contador-escapes.jpg
    Best teeth in the peloton
    stybarold-630x419.jpg
    FTFY :lol:
    Fat chopper. Some racing. Some testing. Some crashing.
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  • ^i still have nightmares about poor Stybar's teeth!
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    BTW in relation to the speculation that Team Sky may have paid Astana yesterday, are they not subject to FCPA?
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,220
    dish_dash wrote:
    BTW in relation to the speculation that Team Sky may have paid Astana yesterday, are they not subject to FCPA?

    There was a little bit about this on the cycling podcast, they made the point that there are plenty of little alliances and rivalries in the peloton and plenty of the DSs etc raced or worked together in the past so it could be anything. They reckon Tinkoff and Astana don't get on so it might just be that.

    Sky would presumably come under the UK anti-bribery laws as well which are pretty strict. Suppose there could be non-monetary inducements - maybe we'll see Sky not chasing a break with a load of Astana in it or something?
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    dish_dash wrote:
    BTW in relation to the speculation that Team Sky may have paid Astana yesterday, are they not subject to FCPA?

    There was a little bit about this on the cycling podcast, they made the point that there are plenty of little alliances and rivalries in the peloton and plenty of the DSs etc raced or worked together in the past so it could be anything. They reckon Tinkoff and Astana don't get on so it might just be that.

    Sky would presumably come under the UK anti-bribery laws as well which are pretty strict. Suppose there could be non-monetary inducements - maybe we'll see Sky not chasing a break with a load of Astana in it or something?

    Ja ja... I'm sure there are any number of deals going on based upon obligation/bias etc. Favours will of course to traded about the peloton.

    I just thought it was a tad fantastic that Team Sky (which is a sub of News Corp) would be making direct financial inducements given their vulnerability to the FCPA. UK anti-bribery laws aren't nearly as draconian or far reaching as the US one, esp if you have large US operations.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,070
    dish_dash wrote:
    BTW in relation to the speculation that Team Sky may have paid Astana yesterday, are they not subject to FCPA?

    Are you doubting that Scarponi was extremely concerned about De La Cruz and Formolo stealing his 9th position? Plus he thought with Konig down the road 8th was a possibility.

    I genuinely think that FCPA must be one of the most widely ignored rules. An executive meet and greet service at an airport is highly likely to break it.
  • adr82adr82 Posts: 4,002
    TheBigBean wrote:
    "Ugh, three and a half minutes up with a week to go, what a boring race / GC over / Movistar have suffocated it, they're too strong, it gives no one else a chance / I prefer the Giro" .... etc.

    ; )

    The problem with this is that the current leader is concerned he might lose 3 mins in the TT. He probably won't and he looks strong, but it is an open exciting race where things could still happen because there are still significant stages to come.
    Something certainly happened last time Quintana started a Vuelta TT in the red jersey :shock:
    dx1En8F.gif
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,070
    If it happened which I'm not saying it did, I would imagine that Froome offered the Astana riders in the group some cash, and it had nothing to do with Sky or anyone outside the group.
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    TheBigBean wrote:
    dish_dash wrote:
    BTW in relation to the speculation that Team Sky may have paid Astana yesterday, are they not subject to FCPA?

    Are you doubting that Scarponi was extremely concerned about De La Cruz and Formolo stealing his 9th position? Plus he thought with Konig down the road 8th was a possibility.

    I genuinely think that FCPA must be one of the most widely ignored rules. An executive meet and greet service at an airport is highly likely to break it.

    You, Mr Bean, need to go on a compliance training refresher course... we take these things very seriously.

    I presume there was some alliance with Astana - though Chris Baldwin was suggesting that they could just as easy have had high profile guests in the car and wanted to put on a show...
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    If I'm not mistaken the rumours emanated from outraged Contador fans unable to accept that any team has their own goals like keeping their GC man in the top 10 or whatever.

    And definitely unable to accept that not everyone despises Sky as much as they do.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,070
    dish_dash wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    dish_dash wrote:
    BTW in relation to the speculation that Team Sky may have paid Astana yesterday, are they not subject to FCPA?

    Are you doubting that Scarponi was extremely concerned about De La Cruz and Formolo stealing his 9th position? Plus he thought with Konig down the road 8th was a possibility.

    I genuinely think that FCPA must be one of the most widely ignored rules. An executive meet and greet service at an airport is highly likely to break it.

    You, Mr Bean, need to go on a compliance training refresher course... we take these things very seriously.

    I've had many long stubborn stand-offs relating to additional payments required in dodgy places. Whilst I'm happy to do it, I think I'm fairly unusual in this regard, and I haven't usually needed anything more complicated than a stamp in a passport. I'm just suspicious that it is completely ignored / outsourced by all and sundry, but it is good to hear that the dish_dash bank has some standards.

    Corporate entertainment was also supposed to take a massive hit as a result of similar legislation, but it is still booming.
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    Joelsim wrote:
    If I'm not mistaken the rumours emanated from outraged Contador fans unable to accept that any team has their own goals like keeping their GC man in the top 10 or whatever.

    And definitely unable to accept that not everyone despises Sky as much as they do.

    Nah... I saw plenty on twitter making the allusion... the Velocast lot for a start... and I wouldn't put them in a outraged Contador camp... it was more along the lines of we know what's going on wink wink, Vino knows the price of things, etc. etc.
  • At one point yesterday, some were howling and a screaming at OBE working in the chase.
    I mean, really........

    Of course on the other hand, total commitment from all is always to be expected from a sizable breakaway. :roll:
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,220
    At one point yesterday, some were howling and a screaming at OBE working in the chase.
    I mean, really........

    That's a special level of stupid... Specially given Chaves' pretty decent ride on the final climb.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 23,211
    dish_dash wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    If I'm not mistaken the rumours emanated from outraged Contador fans unable to accept that any team has their own goals like keeping their GC man in the top 10 or whatever.

    And definitely unable to accept that not everyone despises Sky as much as they do.

    Nah... I saw plenty on twitter making the allusion... the Velocast lot for a start... and I wouldn't put them in a outraged Contador camp... it was more along the lines of we know what's going on wink wink, Vino knows the price of things, etc. etc.

    Nah I have to agree with Joel here. Were Astana and OBE really just going to let the whole GC go behind Froome on his own? That's just stupid. Chaves still has a more than descent shot at a podium now. More than a few supposedly independent (if there is such a thing) journos let their true colours show is all.

    The Velocast's Social Justice/handwringing agenda also has a very clearly defined limit of extent that just happens to coincide with the Russian and Kazakh borders

    It is perfectly natural for the GC teams to chase a break they re not in, that it helped Froome was irrelevant to their thinking
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • I was waiting for this. Its a well known fact the Spaniards and Spanish speaking riders stick together at some point in the Vuelta, happens every year. Its almost like they gang up on Froome or others just because they can. Was expecting it to happen earlier but knew it would happen.
    Froome screwed up, sat too casually at the back of the peloton on rollout with his team all over the place. That was the first mistake.
    Second mistake was letting old spiked-steak Contador and Quintana have a chin wag at the front of the race. If i was Froome or SKY i would have instantly called a rider up just to disrupt the conversation. Quintana, Contador, Valverde, Rodriguez..they've all ganged up over the years to block other teams out and keep it like the Masons.
    Contador was basically being a sly c*nt. No chance of winning the Veulta, he knows that, but does his usual and disrupts it by making sure no one else outside of the Spanish speaking lot get a look in.
    SKY should have expected his, could have put your mortgage on it.
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