Forum home Road cycling forum Pro race

Vuelta Stage 15 *Spoilers*

1567810

Posts

  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,210
    TheBigBean wrote:
    This suggestion also has merits, but I think that any yellow carded sprinter would simply leave the race. If you time limited it to a number of stages then they would probably hang around.

    Well, tough censored , they know the rules and if they want to continue participating in sprint stages then they should endeavour to get in within the time limits. Sprinters routinely leave Grand Tours once the big mountain stages start anyway so no real change there and they usually don't get eliminated before that so I don't see any problem really.

    The ones like Cav usually make a good stab at getting in within time limits for the TdF for instance if they are interested in contesting the final stage on the Champs Elysees.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066
    RichN95 - I would be more sympathetic to arguments over the coefficients if they had finished within 20 minutes of the time limit. 54 mins is a long way no matter how you look at it.

    Dinyull - Froome need his team that was trapped behind, everyone knew that, so it was up to them to work.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,495
    TheBigBean wrote:
    RichN95 - I would be more sympathetic to arguments over the coefficients if they had finished within 20 minutes of the time limit. 54 mins is a long way no matter how you look at it.
    .
    But they knew they were going to miss it before they got to the final climb. They were never going to get close to it, circumstances made it unrealistoc. A miss is as good as a mile. With my system, the time limit will always be attainable.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • TheBigBean wrote:
    RichN95 - I would be more sympathetic to arguments over the coefficients if they had finished within 20 minutes of the time limit. 54 mins is a long way no matter how you look at it.

    20 minutes? You realise that is just 5 minutes off the fastest race schedule. Really? for the bus on a mountain finish?
    Which is kinda Rich's point.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Short stages with big final climbs are always going to make it tough to meet the time limit. It's short, so your percentage of the three hours or so it takes to ride for the winner isn't going to be much, but it's got a censored climb at the end, which is where the gruppetto lose most of their their time anyway. And while we might like short stages for the potential for explosive racing right from the gun, I imagine a lot of riders hate them for that same reason as well. Having one the day after the queen stage.... That's plain nasty.

    I'm with rich on this - the time cuts need reforming, they don't work.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066
    Contador:
    “We should analyse the situation and find a solution to something that stops riders from racing at a snail’s pace. I compared my power meter with Jesus Hernandez [his teammate who finished 140th in the gruppetto – ed.] and he had made half the effort that I did in that stage. If you don’t apply the rules correctly, somebody pays for it.”

    If the rules are changed so that that gruppetto are considered to be in the time limit then we may as well scrap the concept of a time limit. Or just set it at 2 hours or midnight without any need for a formula.

    The Giro in 2003 managed to eliminate 35 riders which is good going although not quite 93.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,220
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Contador:
    “We should analyse the situation and find a solution to something that stops riders from racing at a snail’s pace. I compared my power meter with Jesus Hernandez [his teammate who finished 140th in the gruppetto – ed.] and he had made half the effort that I did in that stage. If you don’t apply the rules correctly, somebody pays for it.”

    If the rules are changed so that that gruppetto are considered to be in the time limit then we may as well scrap the concept of a time limit. Or just set it at 2 hours or midnight without any need for a formula.

    The Giro in 2003 managed to eliminate 35 riders which is good going although not quite 93.
    I'm not sure people are suggesting they should have made it so the time limit was >54 minutes - just that the time limit in this case was so unrealistic (due to the combination of big climbs, short stage and high pace right from the start) that some/most of those guys wouldn't have made the time cut even if they'd turned themselves inside out. The time limit should be set such that it is realistic.
  • thegibdogthegibdog Posts: 2,106
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Contador:
    “We should analyse the situation and find a solution to something that stops riders from racing at a snail’s pace. I compare my power meter with Jesus Hernandez [his teammate who finished 140th in the gruppetto – ed.] and he had made half the effort that I did in that stage. If you don’t apply the rules correctly, somebody pays for it.”
    Elimination based on a percentage of the stage winners average power, rather than time, would be interesting!
  • thegibdog wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Contador:
    “We should analyse the situation and find a solution to something that stops riders from racing at a snail’s pace. I compare my power meter with Jesus Hernandez [his teammate who finished 140th in the gruppetto – ed.] and he had made half the effort that I did in that stage. If you don’t apply the rules correctly, somebody pays for it.”
    Elimination based on a percentage of the stage winners average power, rather than time, would be interesting!

    They'd never let poor Stannard in a break again.
    Gerrans would be gifted wins all the time....
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • TheBigBean wrote:
    Contador:
    “We should analyse the situation and find a solution to something that stops riders from racing at a snail’s pace. I compared my power meter with Jesus Hernandez [his teammate who finished 140th in the gruppetto – ed.] and he had made half the effort that I did in that stage. If you don’t apply the rules correctly, somebody pays for it.”

    If the rules are changed so that that gruppetto are considered to be in the time limit then we may as well scrap the concept of a time limit. Or just set it at 2 hours or midnight without any need for a formula.

    The Giro in 2003 managed to eliminate 35 riders which is good going although not quite 93.

    What happened was the elastic snapped. They just need a slightly longer elastic in these situations and they'd have made more effort to make the cut.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • awaveyawavey Posts: 2,368
    the time cuts dont work, because the time cuts arent being enforced, so the rules are being broken its not the rules ARE broken, and Froome is right enforce the time cuts (and yep hes clearly unhappy with his team if hes saying stuff like that) but that incentive of yes they will enforce time cuts so youll be going home if you dont pull your finger out and get pedalling, that group of riders would of got themselves up the road sooner, maybe closed down the break sooner, it may have even changed the whole dynamic of the stage as a result as different tactics come in.

    instead they just rolled along deciding not to help Sky when it became apparent it was a tactically adavantageous and then got to a point where they gambled correctly a big enough group of them sticks together, the jury wouldnt kick them out.

    it happened on Stage 6 on the Tour of Britain last year, there was something like 2/3rd of the whole race group who came in 45 odd mins back from the winner and the rest of the race, theyd been through the whole podium ceremony and even started dismantling the finish giving up waiting for them, and they were just rolling in at a speed no quicker than Im sure I could have managed.

    and your thinking, or at least I was, hold on its one thing to get dropped,miss a break, blow into red etc etc, its another to soft pedal along at a lower speed for a pro cyclist and stick together in a big group just because you know it will be harder for the race organisers to kick you all out for breaking time limits, instead of trying to finish in the time you can achieve.
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    Three points.
    - The situation was an exception, most of the time the time cut is applied and riders are booted off.
    - The riders were clearly taking collective action, they knew that if all of them finished together it would be much harder to boot them out so they stuck together. Koen de Kort was very clear about this on the podcast.
    - Adam Hansen's run of GT finishes would have been over if the organisers had decided to throw the grupetto off the Tour.
  • dish_dash wrote:
    - The situation was an exception, most of the time the time cut is applied and riders are booted off.
    But there are exceptions so often that it makes a mockery of the rules.

    Maybe RichN95 is right and the rules aren’t fit for purpose. But then change them! Having rules and applying them capriciously should appal right-thinking people.
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    dish_dash wrote:
    - The situation was an exception, most of the time the time cut is applied and riders are booted off.
    But there are exceptions so often that it makes a mockery of the rules.

    Maybe RichN95 is right and the rules aren’t fit for purpose. But then change them! Having rules and applying them capriciously should appal right-thinking people.

    Are there? How many GT stages did riders miss the cut and get let back in over the past 3 years?
  • dish_dash wrote:
    How many GT stages did riders miss the cut and get let back in over the past 3 years?
    No idea but it happens too often. Sometimes riders actually complain when they’re booted out, revealing where their expectations lie! Those expectations are based on precedent.
  • I'm just trying to think what might happen if you forced riders to race at the limit all day every day in a GT...?
    Correlation is not causation.
  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,970
    I'm just trying to think what might happen if you forced riders to race at the limit all day every day in a GT...?

    There lies the problem. Won't be long until envelopes are pushed if time limits are ruled with an iron fist.
  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,970
    While the grupetto might have taken the mick slightly, I was more peed off with the peloton go slow effort earlier in the week.
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    Dinyull wrote:
    While the grupetto might have taken the mick slightly, I was more peed off with the peloton go slow effort earlier in the week.

    Yip, I agree... not many complaints about Stage 13's go slow...
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066
    dish_dash wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    While the grupetto might have taken the mick slightly, I was more peed off with the peloton go slow effort earlier in the week.

    Yip, I agree... not many complaints about Stage 13's go slow...

    Which rules did it break? Who received an advantage?
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    TheBigBean wrote:
    dish_dash wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    While the grupetto might have taken the mick slightly, I was more peed off with the peloton go slow effort earlier in the week.

    Yip, I agree... not many complaints about Stage 13's go slow...

    Which rules did it break? Who received an advantage?

    Everyone apart from those in the break... and it made for a poor spectacle.

    It wasn't breaking any rules but the coordinate go slow on Stage 13 provides some context around rider collective action in this peloton as well as the general level of rider fatigue at the Vuelta.

    My view is clear Stage 15 was an exceptional situation and I don't think you should make rules to cover the exception.
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,610
    I like Rich's solution. It's logical and fair. If it was blatant rule flaunting then this would happen on every mountain stage. I think some don't realise the effort it takes some riders to get through these stages. Look back at the stage in the Tour where Cavendish just about made the cut and look at the effort it took.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066
    Pross wrote:
    I like Rich's solution. It's logical and fair. If it was blatant rule flaunting then this would happen on every mountain stage. I think some don't realise the effort it takes some riders to get through these stages. Look back at the stage in the Tour where Cavendish just about made the cut and look at the effort it took.

    It relies on a pre-race forecast which doesn't take into account weather or road conditions. For example, I would imagine that estimates in TTs (where riders are riding at their maximum) are several minutes out due to these factors. If you extrapolate this over an entire stage it will result it quite a large fudge factor.

    It would also mean that the 93 were not guilty on Stage 15 which in my opinion is a bit ridiculous.

    Despite larger mountains, longer stages, riding in a small group for a bit and climbing legs worse than any in Vuelta, Cavendish still didn't finish 55 mins behind.

    As I said upthread, if they had missed the cut by a small margin, I'd be much more sympathetic.
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    BB, for Hansen's record is nothing else it's a good thing you weren't a commissaire then...
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066
    dish_dash wrote:
    BB, for Hansen's record is nothing else it's a good thing you weren't a commissaire then...

    I wasn't expecting them to be removed for the reason they weren't: there were lots of them. My point was that there should be some other sanction that can save the race and penalise the riders. Decimation, yellow card etc. all have merits. There was no reward whatsoever for the riders like Bennati who bothered to finish inside the time limit except for getting to race against rested sprinters the next day.
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    TheBigBean wrote:
    dish_dash wrote:
    BB, for Hansen's record is nothing else it's a good thing you weren't a commissaire then...

    I wasn't expecting them to be removed for the reason they weren't: there were lots of them. My point was that there should be some other sanction that can save the race and penalise the riders. Decimation, yellow card etc. all have merits. There was no reward whatsoever for the riders like Bennati who bothered to finish inside the time limit except for getting to race against rested sprinters the next day.

    But cycling isn't always fair, right? So hard luck for Bennati in this instance... As I said above, it's very clear that there was a decision taken by the grupetto to all ride together and use the power of numbers to stay in the race. Bennati could just have dropped back also...

    I'm not convinced that this is really a problem that needs revised rules... other than this instance I've not heard any examples of where it has been an issue.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,066
    I'll just add it to my long list of cycling grumbles which includes the riding on the pavement rule, riding over level crossings and national jerseys!!!
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,610
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    I like Rich's solution. It's logical and fair. If it was blatant rule flaunting then this would happen on every mountain stage. I think some don't realise the effort it takes some riders to get through these stages. Look back at the stage in the Tour where Cavendish just about made the cut and look at the effort it took.

    It relies on a pre-race forecast which doesn't take into account weather or road conditions. For example, I would imagine that estimates in TTs (where riders are riding at their maximum) are several minutes out due to these factors. If you extrapolate this over an entire stage it will result it quite a large fudge factor.

    It would also mean that the 93 were not guilty on Stage 15 which in my opinion is a bit ridiculous.

    Despite larger mountains, longer stages, riding in a small group for a bit and climbing legs worse than any in Vuelta, Cavendish still didn't finish 55 mins behind.

    As I said upthread, if they had missed the cut by a small margin, I'd be much more sympathetic.

    No it doesn't. He was proposing an either / or so maintaining the existing cut off formula with the back up of using the average race book time to protect against those (very rare) instances where a tough stage is raced from the gun.
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,254
    TheBigBean wrote:
    I'll just add it to my long list of cycling grumbles which includes the riding on the pavement rule, riding over level crossings and national jerseys!!!

    :roll: :lol:
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,495
    TheBigBean wrote:

    It relies on a pre-race forecast which doesn't take into account weather or road conditions. For example, I would imagine that estimates in TTs (where riders are riding at their maximum) are several minutes out due to these factors. If you extrapolate this over an entire stage it will result it quite a large fudge factor.
    But my method relies on only two numbers - the allowable time deficit and the Estimated Time of Arrival. The road book could contain an initial estimate which would be confirmed or adjusted due to conditions on the morning of the race.

    Time limits exist for two reasons:
    1. To ensure the schedules of race logistics, road closures and TV are not delayed by too much
    2. To eliminate riders who are not up to a sufficient standard

    As long as those two reasons are served, then riders should not be eliminated.
    Twitter: @RichN95
Sign In or Register to comment.