Rio Olympics *Spoilers*

Garry H

Flasher wrote:

Seriously, I wouldn't want you anywhere near me after a big accident, even if she's not breathing you don't move the head as it could be enough to paralyse someone with a neck injury and the way Van Vleuten went down that would be a massive consideration. You leave the head in position and pull the jaw down to fish the tongue out, however if the person's breathing you leave well alone, till the experts arrive.

Garbage.if you need to move the head to enable a clear breathing passage when you cannot determine if the person is breathing or not, then you do it.

mfin

Garry H wrote:

Flasher wrote:

Seriously, I wouldn't want you anywhere near me after a big accident, even if she's not breathing you don't move the head as it could be enough to paralyse someone with a neck injury and the way Van Vleuten went down that would be a massive consideration. You leave the head in position and pull the jaw down to fish the tongue out, however if the person's breathing you leave well alone, till the experts arrive.

Garbage.if you need to move the head to enable a clear breathing passage when you cannot determine if the person is breathing or not, then you do it.

Never fear, the paramedic chuckle brothers are here.

tangled_metal

Sounds like the internet experts disagree on first aid. I can't turn off the computer someone on the internet is wrong. Get real! You lot have no idea just guessing.

Is there any real expert? Any ED doctors or paramedics around to give us their expertise?

jscl

Erm, guys, just a question.

Why does it f'ing matter? She's out of hospital now, very lucky escape. End of debate.

Now, let's talk about tomorrow's time trial or something.

DeVlaeminck

It's a discussion forum - let's discuss what we want

jscl

DeVlaeminck wrote:

It's a discussion forum - let's discuss what we want

I know that, but do we really need pages discussing the correct first aid methods.... ?

tangled_metal

It's the internet, someone is wrong. The discussion can't end!

So who does the course best suit? Men's TT I mean. One guess, who's your best guess to win?

Richmond Racer 2

Indurain

gweeds

Rominger

DeVlaeminck

Tangled Metal wrote:

It's the internet, someone is wrong. The discussion can't end!

Take your point but Flasher's advice could be dangerous. OK it's just a cycling forum but if they are going to give out advice about life and death situations at least get it right. Really everyone should be clear that if someone isn't breathing they can't afford to sit and wait, make sure help is on the way then get stuck into CPR and you can't do that without moving them.

I agree with DD that it isn't really relevant here because you could see she was breathing and yes it's a bit of a tangent but at least it's useful information.

tailwindhome

JSCL wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Just wondering would a painted line marking were the road edge drops to gutter have helped safety

I think rewatching yesterday's big accident, her line wasn't too bad going in to the corner, she just took it too fast and maybe even an application of brakes at the wrong time.

I think it would have been 'helpful' in general, but wouldn't have any bearing on yesterday.

Was thinking more in general.
The road drops off into a gutter. Knowing where the real edge of the road is must be of some help for the price of a tin of paint and a couple of labourers
They undertake this exercise for the NW200 motorbike races. Painting the kerbstones so the riders don't clip a kerb at speed.

tailwindhome

If Cancellara doesn't ride the Worlds TT, this will be his last major TT?

DeVlaeminck

Roglic or whatever he is called hasn't been talked about much or if he has I haven't been listening - might be an outsider ? Dumoulin is a bit of an unknown with his wrist and Froome didn't look to be on top form in the road race.

bobmcstuff

andyp wrote:

The British people have had enough of experts.

Ha.

jscl

TailWindHome wrote:

If Cancellara doesn't ride the Worlds TT, this will be his last major TT?

I *realllyyyy* want Fabian to win this TT.

bobmcstuff

With that climb? Nah...

jscl

bobmcstuff wrote:

With that climb? Nah...

A boy can have his dreams, right?

slim_boy_fat

Froome off last according to the beeb.

flasher

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Take your point but Flasher's advice could be dangerous. OK it's just a cycling forum but if they are going to give out advice about life and death situations at least get it right.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Accidents- ... ident.aspx

"If the casualty appears unresponsive, ask them loudly if they're OK and if they can open their eyes. If they respond, you can leave them in the position they're in until help arrives. While you wait, keep checking their breathing, pulse and level of response:
Are they alert?
Do they respond to your voice?
Do they respond to pain?
Is there no response to any stimulus (are they unconscious)?
If there's no response, leave the casualty in the position they're in and open their airway. If this isn't possible in the position they're in, gently lay them on their back and open their airway.
To open the airway, place one hand on the casualty’s forehead and gently tilt their head back, lifting the tip of the chin using two fingers. This moves the tongue away from the back of the throat. Don't push on the floor of the mouth, as this will push the tongue upwards and obstruct the airway.
If you think the person may have a spinal injury, place your hands on either side of their head and use your fingertips to gently lift the angle of the jaw forward and upwards, without moving the head, to open the airway. Take care not to move the casualty’s neck. However, opening the airway takes priority over a neck injury. This is known as the jaw thrust technique."

Daz555

What are the thoughts on Cavs comments re TP?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/olympic ... y-wiggins/

Brad being the "hero" as a reason for Cav being out of TP? Personally I don't buy it despite Cav saying it himself - I can't imagine for a moment Cav thought he would get a ride in that 4 man squad....I'd say Aussies are favourites and no way can they risk using the fifth man unless they have an injury,

Legolam

Flasher's advice (and subsequent posting of the NHS link) is correct. If you suspect a non-breathing person to have a spinal injury, you perform a jaw thrust to clear the airway whilst simultaneously immobilising the neck (helps if there are 2 people present). However, oxygenation takes precedence over spinal protection if you genuinely have to choose between them.

I was actually thinking that she landed in an awkward position to adequately perform a jaw thrust +/- resuscitation if needed when I watched the crash, and was mentally trying to work out how I'd treat her.

Hannah (a cardiologist, done more resuscitations than I care to remember)

tangled_metal

So Hannah, at last someone coming out as an expert, what you're saying is you open up the airway with as little disturbance to the neck of the injured person. That is to open up the airway of someone having difficulty to breath.

Could something like that crash cause someone to stop breathing and pulse to stop? I must admit I've only seen a drowning accident which caused the injured to need full resuscitation. He.recovered from a full on blue colour BTW but scary all the same.

I'm just curious in case I ever need to know. Theoretical case of a potential spinal injury, the person is in a position you could never carry out CPR or whatever you call chest compressions and there's no breathing or pulse detected. Opening the airway as you suggested isn't enough right? You will have to move them to resuscitate right? Not the case I'm guessing with AvV but theoretically you would risk paralysis over prolonged lack of breathing and circulation? It's ABC still in public first aid right?

BTW the above is off topic and not joining the argument over whether flasher is right or not. I'm just being opportunistic and trying to get unofficial training in first aid from a medical doctor who posts on here. Perhaps I'd be better off going on a course but time constraints won't let me for some time.

awavey

Daz555 wrote:

What are the thoughts on Cavs comments re TP?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/olympic ... y-wiggins/

Brad being the "hero" as a reason for Cav being out of TP? Personally I don't buy it despite Cav saying it himself - I can't imagine for a moment Cav thought he would get a ride in that 4 man squad....I'd say Aussies are favourites and no way can they risk using the fifth man unless they have an injury,

the Torygraph chucks in some quotes from Wiggo only last month in July suggesting Cav might have been ear marked for the semi final, when the format (assuming you qualify fast enough) means you just need to beat the other team to go for gold http://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/201 ... am-pursui/

but maybe if you chuck all these things together, if his relationship with the endurance coach isnt great or theres not much trust he can deliver the numbers required & Sutton if he was his best supporter leaving & Brad getting stressed & concerns among all the team over how much time they lose because of Cavs size...though the womens team cope with that issue

plans change dont they, you can imagine Cav quits the tour turns up in Wales and finds out actually he could have rode to Paris = one grumpy Cav.

DeVlaeminck

Flasher wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Take your point but Flasher's advice could be dangerous. OK it's just a cycling forum but if they are going to give out advice about life and death situations at least get it right.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Accidents- ... ident.aspx

"If the casualty appears unresponsive, ask them loudly if they're OK and if they can open their eyes. If they respond, you can leave them in the position they're in until help arrives. While you wait, keep checking their breathing, pulse and level of response:
Are they alert?
Do they respond to your voice?
Do they respond to pain?
Is there no response to any stimulus (are they unconscious)?
If there's no response, leave the casualty in the position they're in and open their airway. If this isn't possible in the position they're in, gently lay them on their back and open their airway.
To open the airway, place one hand on the casualty’s forehead and gently tilt their head back, lifting the tip of the chin using two fingers. This moves the tongue away from the back of the throat. Don't push on the floor of the mouth, as this will push the tongue upwards and obstruct the airway.
If you think the person may have a spinal injury, place your hands on either side of their head and use your fingertips to gently lift the angle of the jaw forward and upwards, without moving the head, to open the airway. Take care not to move the casualty’s neck. However, opening the airway takes priority over a neck injury. This is known as the jaw thrust technique."

I don't see how any of that contradicts what I wrote which you took exception to - "If anyone has done first aid and know enough to check breathing then I'd say do it, if they aren't breathing then it's simple enough to move the head into a position so the tongue wont obstruct the airway and do chest compressions to keep the blood flowing to the brain. In fact do you really need to know first aid to do those three things? I'd want a cubscout to do what they had been taught rather than leave me on the ground not breathing.

I've done a few first aid courses, I wouldn't really say I knew what I was doing beyond those few simple things but on all the courses the instructor has said doing something is usually better than nothing."

What you wrote is move the jaw and fish the tongue out from which I inferred stick your fingers in which is not something I've ever seen suggested. My point is you should not do nothing because you don't know the exact ratio of breaths to chest compressions or whatever which in my experience is the advice any first aid trainer gives because they realise that very few people will remember every last detail of their training.

RichN95.

Seriously you armchair paramedics, take it to new thread would you.

Legolam

Tangled Metal/RichN95 - I'll start a new thread to answer TM's questions to avoid derailing this one.

TheBigBean

RichN95 wrote:

Seriously you armchair paramedics, take it to new thread would you.

A touch harsh given how much unhelpful non-cycling stuff often gets posted.

No_Ta_Doctor

We're on page 38 and we haven't got to the TTs or the track yet.

I've started a new spoiler for the TTs, it's too much hassle to wade through the road race stuff (inc. paramedic chat) to find TT relevant postings.

It will be even worse when we get to the track events, I suggest a new thread for them as well.

viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=13068629

kleinstroker

It's raining in Rio this morning

Daz555

awavey wrote:

but maybe if you chuck all these things together, if his relationship with the endurance coach isnt great or theres not much trust he can deliver the numbers required & Sutton if he was his best supporter leaving & Brad getting stressed & concerns among all the team over how much time they lose because of Cavs size...though the womens team cope with that issue

The women do cope usually - but Trott has blown off the front on more than one occasion - double whammy of being both the strongest AND smallest rider in the squad.

Cav at least is unlikely to be able to ride off the front of this TP squad - but he no doubt offers such little protection from the wind the others probably hate riding with him!