Lizzie

fenix

Wheelspinner wrote:

Presumably won't ever know, but would be interesting to know if any other riders at that hotel in Sweden were tested the same day and had no issue being contacted, whether UKAD or some other country.

You'd think this would be the kind of evidence discussed at the appeal eh ?

If it was relevant and known I'm sure it was ? I don't think they're just going to take the word of a rider at face value ? Presumably only the tester would know that the Hotel refused to give them Lizzies room number. Lizzie wouldn't know that would she ?

The_Boy

RichN95 wrote:

Wheelspinner wrote:

Presumably won't ever know, but would be interesting to know if any other riders at that hotel in Sweden were tested the same day and had no issue being contacted, whether UKAD or some other country.

Seems more than doubtful that the UKAD test reps would go all the way to Sweden for 1 test of 1 athlete on 1 day. Or is that usual?

I would think UKAD would get accredited Swedish testers to do the tests for them. I maybe entirely wrong about that though.

This is what I've always assumed to be what happens. Then again anti-doping and sports administration never fails to surprise me.

dish_dash

Someone with access to twitter please post up her statement. Interesting dig at BC in there...

r0bh

Fenix wrote:

Wheelspinner wrote:

Presumably won't ever know, but would be interesting to know if any other riders at that hotel in Sweden were tested the same day and had no issue being contacted, whether UKAD or some other country.

You'd think this would be the kind of evidence discussed at the appeal eh ?

If it was relevant and known I'm sure it was ? I don't think they're just going to take the word of a rider at face value ? Presumably only the tester would know that the Hotel refused to give them Lizzies room number. Lizzie wouldn't know that would she ?

Why don't we wait for the CAS reasoned decision to be published instead of trying to come to conclusions without the full information?

Anyway, Lizzie has just published a statement on Twitter: https://twitter.com/L_ArmiTstead/status ... 6437496832

r0bh

dish_dash wrote:

Someone with access to twitter please post up her statement. Interesting dig at BC in there...

salsiccia1

Pretty robust stuff, and good to hear directly from her. Also BC not covering themselves with glory (again).

RichN95.

The second infringement seems odd. Not an actual test at all. Just a data inconsistency. I don't know the rules on this.

timoid.

Great statement. Written from the heart. I guess we all have to give her the benefit of the doubt, but she must understand that she needs to be accountable for that doubt.

BC really has a problem with the way it treats female cyclists.

kingstongraham

RichN95 wrote:

The second infringement seems odd. Not an actual test at all. Just a data inconsistency. I don't know the rules on this.

I don't know either, but it seems like it was counted as a "strike". The "I was tested later that week" is irrelevant.

TheBigBean

KingstonGraham wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

The second infringement seems odd. Not an actual test at all. Just a data inconsistency. I don't know the rules on this.

I don't know either, but it seems like it was counted as a "strike". The "I was tested later that week" is irrelevant.

There is an element of a Armstrong in the statement. She also threw in a Riis for good measure. That said, it is the old classic that you can't prove a negative.

It sounds like UKAD does have the ability to ignore missed tests in the event of family emergencies, but it disagreed as to the extent of the emergency in this case.

wallace_and_gromit

Shame Lizzie can't put as much effort into managing her Whereabout as she can into producing statements to excuse her poor management.

neonriver

I'm confused about the first test. Yesterday in DM she say she didn't contest quote

'I did think about it,’ she says in response to the final question. ‘But the reason I didn’t was because it was my first strike and it was very close to the World Championships, so I was travelling to America. I also didn’t have the legal advice. It felt very much them against me. I was very naive. I went ahead to the World Championships and I didn’t want the distraction.’

but in todays statement she says she did!

Also don't see how Simon Thornton leaving BC would affect her last missed test. The statement says that the overnight accommodation was right but the hour slot was wrong so LA managed do change one thing but not everything. If he was looking at it bi-weekly (is that twice a week or once a fortnight? Bi-weekly means both) if its an emergency would he of been able to look at ADAMS to spot it on that day.

Can give benefit of the doubt but sympathy is fast eroding.

adambruntlett

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Maybe she's just a very forgetful person. I know some may find it impossible to believe someone should forget to do something so important but not everyone is the same - some people are very absent minded - it doesn't mean they are unintelligent and there may be some truth in the adage that genius is rarely accompanied by common sense.

Of course it may indicate she's doping but if she is you'd have to conclude that it's very likely her husband to be is at least aware of what she is doing.

I'm not defending her at all here, but to us (who don't have to fill out our whereabouts forms ever) it seems like a hugely important deal, and something you'd never forget. But once it is part of your daily life, how can you honestly say that it's something you'd think about as soon as you wake up and never forget to do. How many daily tasks do you have (that you have to do EVERY SINGLE DAY) that you can honestly say you do without fail?

dinyull

KingstonGraham wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

The second infringement seems odd. Not an actual test at all. Just a data inconsistency. I don't know the rules on this.

I don't know either, but it seems like it was counted as a "strike". The "I was tested later that week" is irrelevant.

As is "I was tested the following day".

dougzz

If you don't want to feed the 'Twitter army' do things properly. I'm an honest person, I'm tested a lot, it was someone else's fault, BC don't treat us right, go and ride your bike. Does she think she's the first with these. I'm not sure I have an opinion on the actual question of doping, but how much of this have you read before in other cases.

Pross

PeteinSQ wrote:

I would be absolutely amazed if she is a doper.

I've spent a day in her company and she's never off her mobile phone - sending text messages to Philip Deignan I imagine. It doesn't surprise me, or seem sinister that her phone would be on silent during the night.

This is brilliant. I spent a day in her company and she was on her phone the whole time so I'd be amazed if she's a doper Maybe she was on the phone to her supplier!

I always take the view of taking things at face value and I can imagine it's easy to make simple admin errors when you are travelling all over the place although after 9 years you would think these things are 2nd nature. You would also think the system could easily link to your mobile phone to give you reminders of where you've said you'll be at a certain time each day.

The statement started off quite well but then seemed to veer off into 'it's not my fault, someone else should have been doing this'. As I say, I can imagine it's a PITA and easy to make a mistake when you don't have the full time back up but in the same way as Yates ended up taking a (reduced) fall for his team messing up his TUE paperwork it is ultimately the athletes responsibility. Trying to differentiate between a filing error and missed test seems to be grasping at straws though. It still seems poor by UKAD that they didn't write off that first miss though as it appears CAS decided very quickly that they hadn't followed correct procedures.

wallace_and_gromit

adambruntlett wrote:

I'm not defending her at all here, but to us (who don't have to fill out our whereabouts forms ever) it seems like a hugely important deal, and something you'd never forget. But once it is part of your daily life, how can you honestly say that it's something you'd think about as soon as you wake up and never forget to do. How many daily tasks do you have (that you have to do EVERY SINGLE DAY) that you can honestly say you do without fail?

I tend to consider it as equivalent to ensuring childcare arrangements are in place when the kids are young and both parents are working. If you count a "strike" equivalent to a missed test as being phoned up unexpectedly and hearing "I've got your kids here. What should I do with them?" then how many strikes do the average household tot up in a year? Not many, I would suggest, because of course, making sure your kids are sorted out is the most important thing in the world. (Even if your only motivation is ensuring Social Services don't get involved!)

To an elite athlete, surely their reputation/career is the most important thing to them, requiring a similar level of effort / attention to detail.

dinyull

adambruntlett wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Maybe she's just a very forgetful person. I know some may find it impossible to believe someone should forget to do something so important but not everyone is the same - some people are very absent minded - it doesn't mean they are unintelligent and there may be some truth in the adage that genius is rarely accompanied by common sense.

Of course it may indicate she's doping but if she is you'd have to conclude that it's very likely her husband to be is at least aware of what she is doing.

I'm not defending her at all here, but to us (who don't have to fill out our whereabouts forms ever) it seems like a hugely important deal, and something you'd never forget. But once it is part of your daily life, how can you honestly say that it's something you'd think about as soon as you wake up and never forget to do. How many daily tasks do you have (that you have to do EVERY SINGLE DAY) that you can honestly say you do without fail?

If it's something you do every day for 8 or 9 years then I'd say it becomes second nature and something that is ingrained in you to do. Relying on someone to do this for you is asking for trouble.

dinyull

Pross wrote:

PeteinSQ wrote:

I would be absolutely amazed if she is a doper.

I've spent a day in her company and she's never off her mobile phone - sending text messages to Philip Deignan I imagine. It doesn't surprise me, or seem sinister that her phone would be on silent during the night.

I always take the view of taking things at face value and I can imagine it's easy to make simple admin errors when you are travelling all over the place although after 9 years you would think these things are 2nd nature. You would also think the system could easily link to your mobile phone to give you reminders of where you've said you'll be at a certain time each day.

In this day and age where you can add reminders/alarms to your phone such a system doesn't need to be in place.

le_patron

I'd like to see the DCO notes/report on the circumstances surrounding the missed test 'no id, asked for room number, tried phone'. I find it hard believe without seeing their side of the story that it was a simple as that.

Given the potential implications of a missed test (and the fact it was a high profile rider - not that ideally it should make any difference), if I had that job I would be trying a little bit harder.

From an overall process perspective I'd also want to ensure the athlete has a chance to contest the strike, and they have to choose to take it or leave it, not by default accept it and then raise an appeal many months later.

optrexeyedrops

Something isn't right for me with this one. It's not like Lizzie is an idiot. When it comes to womens racing she's right up there, so you would think she would go out of her way to make sure this doesn't happen.

OK, everyone can make a mistake once. But twice? then a third time?? come on Lizzie, this is how rumours and finger pointing starts.

I don't want to look at her in a different light but this doesn't help.

fenix

have you ignored the whole bit where the first 'strike' was struck off as the tester didnt do his job ? So thats not her fault.

She's on two hits. It's unfortunate but I'm sure she isn't the only pro to be in this situation.

Pross

Dinyull wrote:

Pross wrote:

PeteinSQ wrote:

I would be absolutely amazed if she is a doper.

I've spent a day in her company and she's never off her mobile phone - sending text messages to Philip Deignan I imagine. It doesn't surprise me, or seem sinister that her phone would be on silent during the night.

I always take the view of taking things at face value and I can imagine it's easy to make simple admin errors when you are travelling all over the place although after 9 years you would think these things are 2nd nature. You would also think the system could easily link to your mobile phone to give you reminders of where you've said you'll be at a certain time each day.

In this day and age where you can add reminders/alarms to your phone such a system doesn't need to be in place.

No but you would think it would be fairly simple to link your ADAMs or whatever it's called data to a phone ap so that it sends a reminder. For example, at 9pm tonight it might send me an alert saying 'you filed your whereabouts for 7am tomorrow as Travelodge Skegness. Is this still correct?'. It might not completely solve the situation but it would certainly reduce the risk of genuine mistakes as long as athletes didn't come to rely on it completely.

dougzz

The thing about the hotel. Surely hotels never give out room numbers, and riders must spend a good deal of time living from hotels, so there must be a procedure for saying more than X hotel, they must have to log room numbers, or have some procedure to be located.

slowbike

Pross wrote:

I always take the view of taking things at face value and I can imagine it's easy to make simple admin errors when you are travelling all over the place although after 9 years you would think these things are 2nd nature.

I have to take tablets every day of my life - I have a routine whereby I know I take them just before getting dressed ... sometimes that routine is disrupted and I forget - sometimes I forget if I've taken them or not - because it's routine and there's nothing different about it I could be recalling taking them the day before or last week.
Fortunately I'm not going to pass out or drop down dead if I forget one day and I can play catch up - I'm certainly not going to lose my job over it - but I can see how easy it is to forget one update.
As I've repeatedly said - and confirmed by Lizzie's statement - family emergencies can trump everything - I have no idea of - and don't wish to know - the nature of the emergency - obviously it was serious enough for Lizzie to forgo/forget updating the system - something UKAD didn't agree with - but that's why the athlete can appeal.

Pross wrote:

You would also think the system could easily link to your mobile phone to give you reminders of where you've said you'll be at a certain time each day.

I think quite a few technical improvements could be made to make it easier for the athlete to comply.

Pross wrote:

The statement started off quite well but then seemed to veer off into 'it's not my fault, someone else should have been doing this'. As I say, I can imagine it's a PITA and easy to make a mistake when you don't have the full time back up but in the same way as Yates ended up taking a (reduced) fall for his team messing up his TUE paperwork it is ultimately the athletes responsibility. Trying to differentiate between a filing error and missed test seems to be grasping at straws though. It still seems poor by UKAD that they didn't write off that first miss though as it appears CAS decided very quickly that they hadn't followed correct procedures.

When an athelete has to take personal responsibility it's very difficult to then trust a 3rd party who has no stake in the outcome - how easy would it be for BC or whichever body to offer an ADAMS service to participating athletes - but they're not going to be responsible if the data is missing or incorrect - so I can see why the athlete will want to retain this themselves - Yate's missing TUE is a case in point - he trusted his team to submit the correct paperwork and they failed in that - Yates pays the price - is there no feedback to the athlete when paperwork has been submitted - or in the case of ADAMS - missing?
As for UKAD not writing off that first botched test - I'm not sure I'd want them to act as judge and jury - CAS is better placed to do that and enables UKAD to be above suspicion of bribary when there are missed tests for whatever reason - otherwise we'd end up with another cover up like Mr Armstrong c.h.e.a.t, l.i.a.r

fenix

I read a report from a drugs tester - he says that he always found hotels to give out room numbers when he started waving anti doping credentials around and threaten legal actions...

One time nobody was around at the hotel to let him in so he had to climb over the back wall to get in - thats the lengths you have to be prepared to go to to be a tester I guess.

The Lizzie tester doesnt appear to have been as dedicated.

markwb79

It just sits so awkwardly for me. Its completely right, if it was a Russian Athlete we would be all calling foul.

Everyone (me included) is treat the situation from their perspective....how can you do missed something that is your livelihood etc.

There are some completely idiots in this world that would miss one each week for 9 years, but they are business professionals. Everyone is different.

Things that dont sit well with me though....

As I understand it, ADAMS is a app on your phone?
I would like to think you would be checking it as often as you do instagram - come on, we all check when we are on the toilet. Maybe I am over estimating the performance of the app.

I feel insulted in a way about the line saying, I was tested the next day...

All the missed tests were around the time of wins.

lastly...the long story about the third test. All about the family member, the emergency. She makes it sound like it was very very bad. Then she went and won a race 6 days later?


16 tests in 2016, how many races did she win?
If she was tested after every win, plus a couple more during stage races. That cant leave many for out of competition tests?

TheBigBean

I found this quite interesting.

http://www.ukad.org.uk/education/athlet ... ereabouts/

If you are staying in a hotel, you must ensure you have clearly specified your room number in the ‘Additional Information’ section on ADAMS and where possible that the hotel room is booked in your name so any Doping Control Officer can locate you easily.

Other top hints from UKAD

Programme a phone alarm to remind you to check that you will be where you need to be for your designated time slot
Save the Whereabouts SMS number in your phone, make sure the service is activated in your ADAMS profile
Ask close friends and family to remind you to update, especially in the off-season or if on holiday
Ensure friends and family are aware of your obligations as an athlete in the NRTP
Print a copy of your ADAMS calendar for those who may need to be aware, such as coaches
Contact UKAD if you need help athlete@ukad.org.uk
Submit Whereabouts information ahead of the submission deadline, as this gives your NGB and UKAD the opportunity provide support if it is required
Keep on top of updating Whereabouts information, as a pattern of last-minute Whereabouts updates could damage the chances of receiving a reduced sanction after a Whereabouts violation
Make sure up-to-date email and phone numbers are saved in your ADAMS profile so reminders can be sent to you regarding submitting Whereabouts.

dinyull

Pross wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

Pross wrote:

PeteinSQ wrote:

I would be absolutely amazed if she is a doper.

I've spent a day in her company and she's never off her mobile phone - sending text messages to Philip Deignan I imagine. It doesn't surprise me, or seem sinister that her phone would be on silent during the night.

I always take the view of taking things at face value and I can imagine it's easy to make simple admin errors when you are travelling all over the place although after 9 years you would think these things are 2nd nature. You would also think the system could easily link to your mobile phone to give you reminders of where you've said you'll be at a certain time each day.

In this day and age where you can add reminders/alarms to your phone such a system doesn't need to be in place.

No but you would think it would be fairly simple to link your ADAMs or whatever it's called data to a phone ap so that it sends a reminder. For example, at 9pm tonight it might send me an alert saying 'you filed your whereabouts for 7am tomorrow as Travelodge Skegness. Is this still correct?'. It might not completely solve the situation but it would certainly reduce the risk of genuine mistakes as long as athletes didn't come to rely on it completely.

Correct, was just pointing out that it's easy for the pro's to do this themselves if they feel the need.

Things are made far too easy for top athlete's, to the point in some sports (see football) they aren't prepared for the real world after they finish their careers. Relying on someone to fill out the whereabouts system for you or relying on someone to say what you can and can't put in your body is just asking for trouble.

DeVlaeminck

Markwb79 wrote:

lastly...the long story about the third test. All about the family member, the emergency. She makes it sound like it was very very bad. Then she went and won a race 6 days later?

Well about 7 years ago I was rushed to hospital and told by a doctor I had probably had a heart attack - the next day I was sent home having been told I hadn't had a heart attack. Emergencies aren't always long lasting.