How good is Chris Froome?

1…1819212324…39

Comments

  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,473
    He will be the best GT rider of all time when he is done. Because I expect him to win at least another 3.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    M.R.M. wrote:
    He will be the best GT rider of all time when he is done. Because I expect him to win at least another 3.

    Assuming he wins this one, that'll only give Froome 9 to Hinault's 10 and Merckx's 11
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    It's hard to know how much to read into this tbh. His last few GTs he's looked very conservative, with none of the trademark attacks and a sizeable dose of vulnerability in the mountains. This seemed to have been replicated here in the Giro, suggesting his powers were on the wane. Then he pulls out a performance like that. Is he back to his dominant best or was that a hail Mary that came off?
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,320
    phreak wrote:
    It's hard to know how much to read into this tbh. His last few GTs he's looked very conservative, with none of the trademark attacks and a sizeable dose of vulnerability in the mountains. This seemed to have been replicated here in the Giro, suggesting his powers were on the wane. Then he pulls out a performance like that. Is he back to his dominant best or was that a hail Mary that came off?
    I think the recovery finally came about, along with a Hail Mary.
    Today will decide, but as a GT stage yesterday was one of the best ever. Chapeau!
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    phreak wrote:
    It's hard to know how much to read into this tbh. His last few GTs he's looked very conservative, with none of the trademark attacks and a sizeable dose of vulnerability in the mountains. This seemed to have been replicated here in the Giro, suggesting his powers were on the wane. Then he pulls out a performance like that. Is he back to his dominant best or was that a hail Mary that came off?
    I don't think he's been at his absolute best (2013 Tour) since he's been doing two consecutive Grands Tours each season. I think from next year he'll have to focus on one a year or Giro/Vuelta as he ages.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    He’s not better than Armstrong yet.

    OK, I'll bite.

    Armstrong never won a Vuelta (one ride, finished 4th) or a Giro (one ride, finished 12th). Were his palmares to stand, we culd count him the greatest TdF rider ever, but relatively low on the greatest GT rider ever.

    Yes, I know Froome hasn't actually won the Giro yet.

    Yeah I’m obviously ignoring the retrospective stuff.

    7 tdf in a row is proper bonkers if you think about how hard it is to get round 7 Tours in a row in decent shape, let alone race winning.

    It was also a period where the field quality gap between the Tour and every other race was at its biggest; the Giro was a more parochial affair and would have counted less.

    Also, are we seriously to believe that any of the Giro and Vuelta winners in that era were even close to Armstrong?

    Pre long sabbatical, he was in a different league to anyone else. It was only teenage hope and dreaming that led me to think Ullrich had a chance each year.

    If ya wanna go on pure numbers then sure, Armstrong just didn’t ride that many as a GT contender, so how could he have won that many? But for 7 straight years he was untouchable in an era where any rider who was anyone stuck it all on the Tour.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    hypster wrote:
    M.R.M. wrote:
    He will be the best GT rider of all time when he is done. Because I expect him to win at least another 3.

    Assuming he wins this one, that'll only give Froome 9 to Hinault's 10 and Merckx's 11

    Surely you need to win the Tour at least 5 times before you get to enter into those comparisons?
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    It's always a bit daft to compare sports people from different eras. It's usually better to look at how much they dominated their own era rather than list what they won.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    RichN95 wrote:
    It's always a bit daft to compare sports people from different eras. It's usually better to look at how much they dominated their own era rather than list what they won.

    In which case, my comment re Armstrong is quite apt.

    !
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    It's always a bit daft to compare sports people from different eras. It's usually better to look at how much they dominated their own era rather than list what they won.

    In which case, my comment re Armstrong is quite apt.

    !
    Indeed. You add to what you said that in those seven years you can count his bad days on your thumbs
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • milton50
    milton50 Posts: 3,856
    M.R.M. wrote:
    He will be the best GT rider of all time when he is done. Because I expect him to win at least another 3.

    It's also worth remembering that Froome rode his first GT as a serious contender 3 or 4 years later than most other riders with multiple GT wins.

    If he finishes on the podium today I make that 10 podiums in 8 seasons with the Tour/Vuelta still to come this year.

    Not bad.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,320
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    He’s not better than Armstrong yet.

    OK, I'll bite.

    Armstrong never won a Vuelta (one ride, finished 4th) or a Giro (one ride, finished 12th). Were his palmares to stand, we culd count him the greatest TdF rider ever, but relatively low on the greatest GT rider ever.

    Yes, I know Froome hasn't actually won the Giro yet.

    Yeah I’m obviously ignoring the retrospective stuff.

    7 tdf in a row is proper bonkers if you think about how hard it is to get round 7 Tours in a row in decent shape, let alone race winning.

    It was also a period where the field quality gap between the Tour and every other race was at its biggest; the Giro was a more parochial affair and would have counted less.

    Also, are we seriously to believe that any of the Giro and Vuelta winners in that era were even close to Armstrong?

    Pre long sabbatical, he was in a different league to anyone else. It was only teenage hope and dreaming that led me to think Ullrich had a chance each year.

    If ya wanna go on pure numbers then sure, Armstrong just didn’t ride that many as a GT contender, so how could he have won that many? But for 7 straight years he was untouchable in an era where any rider who was anyone stuck it all on the Tour.
    One of the reasons LA won as many Tours because that is ALL he focussed on. Other riders had other targets.
    Other riders were held in higher esteem by people at the time who did not focus only on the Tour.
    LA was a Tour legend, just not a cycling legend for those who follow the sport as a whole.
    The Tour is the biggest race but has been the most boring for decades in comparison. Corporate v racing.

    My opinion. Other opinions are available.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Who was held in higher esteem for not just focusing on the Tour?
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    PBlakeney wrote:
    One of the reasons LA won as many Tours because that is ALL he focussed on. Other riders had other targets.
    Other riders were held in higher esteem by people at the time who did not focus only on the Tour.
    By the time he retired, his three main rivals - Ullrich, Beloki and Basso had two Giro/Vuelta top tens between them (both Vuelta). And in the period 1999-2005 they won four stage races between them (in the same period Armstrong won five other stage races).
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    Indeed. Heras mopped up the Vuelta in that era, and Simoni dominated the Giro. Neither were a real threat at the Tour (one because he was on the same team). He was fortunate to an extent that Pantani and VDB went the way they did, whilst Jimenez might also have been a factor.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    It’s only relatively recently that races like the Giro have not been a mainly parochial affair too.

    That’s testament to riders like Chris and many others who are happy to take it on and make it a more international field.

    Then again winning all 3 GTs in row is pretty full on.
    _
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,473
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    M.R.M. wrote:
    He will be the best GT rider of all time when he is done. Because I expect him to win at least another 3.

    Assuming he wins this one, that'll only give Froome 9 to Hinault's 10 and Merckx's 11

    Surely you need to win the Tour at least 5 times before you get to enter into those comparisons?
    Yes and I expect him to win at least one more Tour.

    Comparing eras is hard and Mercx and Hinault are somewhat untouchable, but if Froome gets to 9-10 wins I'd give him the mantle. Also because of Mercx being proven repeatedly to have been doping.
    I don't see Salbutamol in the same light (although I can understand the principled stand of doping being doping. Real life needs nuance though).
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • amrushton
    amrushton Posts: 1,312
    He is also on the right team. lets not forget in 2012 he was about to be out of contract and it was Julich who was looking at the numbers and believed that Froome had 'something'. That 2012 was committed to Wiggins but before Sky Froome was unremarkable. Sky and Froome are a marriage and I doubt he would achieve the same success out of that sphere. The team, the belief, the vision and the rider are all together. Others have skills but maybe not the team/belief. Pantani was tortured, Ullrich was uncomfortable with success, Wiggins even more so. Yates seemed to talk himself down yet he held the Maglia Rosa for two weeks something Poels will never do.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,320
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Who was held in higher esteem for not just focusing on the Tour?
    Pretty much anyone you liked in the era. There was a whole nation who held every cyclist above LA. Esteem is subjective and not held to stats and figures.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Who was held in higher esteem for not just focusing on the Tour?
    Pretty much anyone you liked in the era. There was a whole nation who held every cyclist above LA. Esteem is subjective and not held to stats and figures.

    Bizarre. Every GC rider who was any good focused on the Tour.
    _
  • Bo Duke
    Bo Duke Posts: 1,058
    To get back to the question 'How good is Chris Froome?' one vital aspect stands out for me that is his unbelievable natural capacity for physical effort.

    There were great riders in the peloton on this Giro - Tom, Aru, Pinot, Yates etc.. but Froome can match their sustained best effort day after day and then top them. Riders can train + a lot of natural talent to get to Tom D's level of fitness but Froome has an extra 5% of strength, endurance and recovery that 'normal' riders don't have and this is what separates the greats - Hinaults etc.. from the typical GT riders.

    Froome would be still capable of these victories if he rode for Astana, BMC or Sunbelt (assuming they built a team around him), it's not a Sky thing, it's a Froome thing.
    'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP
  • gsk82
    gsk82 Posts: 3,599
    Bo Duke wrote:
    Froome would be still capable of these victories if he rode for Astana, BMC or Sunbelt (assuming they built a team around him), it's not a Sky thing, it's a Froome thing.

    That wouldn't have worked on Friday though without his team crushing everyone else's helpers first though.
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,788
    gsk82 wrote:
    Bo Duke wrote:
    Froome would be still capable of these victories if he rode for Astana, BMC or Sunbelt (assuming they built a team around him), it's not a Sky thing, it's a Froome thing.

    That wouldn't have worked on Friday though without his team crushing everyone else's helpers first though.

    Of course, but wouldn't any team build a group of domestique around him? It's not like other teams can't do the same thing. Sky have money to create a squad but they're not head and shoulders above the rest.
    http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    amrushton wrote:
    He is also on the right team. lets not forget in 2012 he was about to be out of contract and it was Julich who was looking at the numbers and believed that Froome had 'something'. That 2012 was committed to Wiggins but before Sky Froome was unremarkable. Sky and Froome are a marriage and I doubt he would achieve the same success out of that sphere. The team, the belief, the vision and the rider are all together. Others have skills but maybe not the team/belief. Pantani was tortured, Ullrich was uncomfortable with success, Wiggins even more so. Yates seemed to talk himself down yet he held the Maglia Rosa for two weeks something Poels will never do.

    I thought it was 2011 he was about to be out of contract, got the bilharzia diagnosis and treatment and then pulled off those amazing rides in the Vuelta that would no doubt have enabled him to win it had he not initially been riding for Wiggins.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    inseine wrote:
    gsk82 wrote:
    Bo Duke wrote:
    Froome would be still capable of these victories if he rode for Astana, BMC or Sunbelt (assuming they built a team around him), it's not a Sky thing, it's a Froome thing.

    That wouldn't have worked on Friday though without his team crushing everyone else's helpers first though.

    Of course, but wouldn't any team build a group of domestique around him? It's not like other teams can't do the same thing. Sky have money to create a squad but they're not head and shoulders above the rest.

    They do seem to be a bit more cerebral than other teams though. On the last Cycling Podcast they asked Marc Reef the Sunweb DS whether they had a special plan for feeding on the stage and Reef said "no, we just did the normal thing". The idea to have the helpers at the roadside in fluro t-shirts so they could be seen, looked stupid but made sense. It's a fascinating study in how little things can (possibly) make a difference. Of course none of it means anything without Froome being able to finish it off with immense athletic power and mental fortitude but...
    Correlation is not causation.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,652
    Above The Cows wrote:
    They do seem to be a bit more cerebral than other teams though. On the last Cycling Podcast they asked Marc Reef the Sunweb DS whether they had a special plan for feeding on the stage and Reef said "no, we just did the normal thing". The idea to have the helpers at the roadside in fluro t-shirts so they could be seen, looked stupid but made sense. It's a fascinating study in how little things can (possibly) make a difference. Of course none of it means anything without Froome being able to finish it off with immense athletic power and mental fortitude but...

    The psychological aspect of that is interesting. Froome was riding in the knowledge that there was a plan, that he wouldn't bonk, that all those little cogs in the machine were turning just for him. Just the fact that they took such an outrageous plan seriously must have been a boost. He didn't have to worry about whether he'd eaten & drunk enough. That must give a huge amount of confidence in an 80km mountain TT.

    I suspect it's the same for quite a few of the "marginal gains" that are so often laughed at.There's at least a placebo effect, and possibly a reverse placebo effect for the opposition, regardless of whether there's any actual gain in having the right sort of pillow.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    inseine wrote:
    Of course, but wouldn't any team build a group of domestique around him? It's not like other teams can't do the same thing. Sky have money to create a squad but they're not head and shoulders above the rest.

    Sky's budget this year is 40million. That's significantly more than any other team, in fact it's more than double of most pro teams.

    Other teams just can't compete with that and the result is complete dominance, which will continue until the budgets are more even.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    redvision wrote:
    Other teams just can't compete with that and the result is complete dominance, which will continue until the budgets are more even.
    The only races they have dominated are the Tour de France and Paris-Nice. In their history they have won the same number of monuments as Simon Gerrans.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    RichN95 wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    Other teams just can't compete with that and the result is complete dominance, which will continue until the budgets are more even.
    The only races they have dominated are the Tour de France and Paris-Nice. In their history they have won the same number of monuments as Simon Gerrans.

    Yes, the races they have targeted.
    The fact that they will hold all the gt's at the same time is total dominance in my eyes.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    edited May 2018
    redvision wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    Other teams just can't compete with that and the result is complete dominance, which will continue until the budgets are more even.
    The only races they have dominated are the Tour de France and Paris-Nice. In their history they have won the same number of monuments as Simon Gerrans.

    Yes, the races they have targeted.
    The fact that they will hold all the gt's at the same time is total dominance in my eyes.
    That’s one rider. Who took five attempts to win the Vuelta.

    From 2013-2016 the number one ranked team was Movistar.
    Twitter: @RichN95

Categories