How good is Chris Froome?

redvision

RichN95 wrote:

That’s one rider. Who took five attempts to win the Vuelta.

Who rides for team sky.
They are a team. Froome wouldn't have won the giro or, possibly, any gt without the team he had around him. No rider can win gt on their own.

Froome only took so long to win the vuelta because that and the giro are second fiddle to team sky's holy grail - the tour.

I wouldn't be surprised if sky won the tour and the vuelta this year again. They have other riders who can step up if Froome has bad legs. That's the strength of the team which no other team, with perhaps the exception of movistar, has.

No_Ta_Doctor

RichN95 wrote:

redvision wrote:

Other teams just can't compete with that and the result is complete dominance, which will continue until the budgets are more even.

The only races they have dominated are the Tour de France and Paris-Nice. In their history they have won the same number of monuments as Simon Gerrans.

Errr, also the Dolphin (5 wins in 8 seasons) while racking up 3 Romandie, 3 Trentino, a Volta Catalunya, a Tirreno-Adriatico and.... BOOM an Eneco.

That's a pretty decent turnover for 8 and a half seasons. Call it 7 and a half if you write off their first crappy 2010 season.

I think that makes it fair to say they've dominated stage racing.

iainf72

redvision wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if sky won the tour and the vuelta this year again. They have other riders who can step up if Froome has bad legs. That's the strength of the team which no other team, with perhaps the exception of movistar, has.

I'd say Movistar have more strength. But whether the team make up means they can use that strength is another thing entirely. Is Carapaz even in the top 5 GC guys on Movistar?

No_Ta_Doctor

Movistar essentially get the Sagan Green Jersey of Being Good At Everything.
2nd best to SKY in stage racing, 2nd best to QS in one dayers.

TheBigBean

redvision wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

That’s one rider. Who took five attempts to win the Vuelta.

Who rides for team sky.
They are a team. Froome wouldn't have won the giro or, possibly, any gt without the team he had around him. No rider can win gt on their own.

Froome only took so long to win the vuelta because that and the giro are second fiddle to team sky's holy grail - the tour.

I wouldn't be surprised if sky won the tour and the vuelta this year again. They have other riders who can step up if Froome has bad legs. That's the strength of the team which no other team, with perhaps the exception of movistar, has.

Froome may well have won the Vuelta in 2011 if he had been riding for a different team. He might even have won the tour in 2012 too.

No_Ta_Doctor

Am I right that the only other rider who has won all three GTs in a row is Merckx? And that he has 4 back to back GT wins?
72 - Giro, Tour
73 - Vuelta, Giro

RichN95.

No tA Doctor wrote:

Am I right that the only other rider who has won all three GTs in a row is Merckx? And that he has 4 back to back GT wins?
72 - Giro, Tour
73 - Vuelta, Giro

Bernard Hinault. 82 Giro & Tour, 83 Vuelta

milemuncher1

Bo Duke wrote:

Froome would be still capable of these victories if he rode for Astana, BMC or Sunbelt (assuming they built a team around him), it's not a Sky thing, it's a Froome thing.

I agree, and disagree a bit, I have my doubts that Froome would shine quite so much, in a different team. There are egos at work, who’s to say the other riders in a different team would toe the line, or be asked to do so by management. Without the sacrificial rides by other members of team Sky, I doubt even Froome could do what he’s been doing of late, he’s good, very good, but not superhuman.

No_Ta_Doctor

RichN95 wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Am I right that the only other rider who has won all three GTs in a row is Merckx? And that he has 4 back to back GT wins?
72 - Giro, Tour
73 - Vuelta, Giro

Bernard Hinault. 82 Giro & Tour, 83 Vuelta

Merci. Thought I might be wrong, all this moving the Vuelta confuses me.

So if he wins the Tour, does his achievement there surpass Merckx's, given that Merckx only had one Tour in his four?

And in the realms of pure conjecture, if he did win the Tour, and it was reasonably comfortable, would he be tempted to reach for the impossible at the Vuelta (assuming he's not suspended)? Surely not... but he's just a leeetle bit driven to leave his mark on history...

Matthewfalle

Personally I think a lot of it boils down to as per one of the posts above: for professional very well funded teams, a lot of them are so amateurish - the fluoro t shirted feeders, the pillows, all that jazz: it's basics, basics, basics.

Some teams don't recce stages, feed zones are not catered for, all that stuf: all Sky have done is take a step back and gone "right, if it works it's not stupid - let's give it a bash" and thought laterally, leading to great success. It's almost like they have sat down with everyone round a big table down the pub and Said "right lads, what do you say - no idea is silly" and lots of people's personal experiences have come out

Turbo training warm up and cool down - why haven't all teams been doing this for decades (it's what serious amateurs have been doing since I was competitively racing at a high level). Cater to the riders' whims and they will benefit mentally.
None of this is rocket science.

Could it be down to a lot of the DS staff not being old school French/Belgian/Italian and therefore stuck in old ways?

Same goes for Team Gb - bit of lateral thinking bought massive gains.

ddraver

Sky's biggest asset remains the ability to take people who should be riding GC for other teams (or one days) and making them empty themselves for the nominated GC rider.

Thomas, Kwiatowski, Poels etc should be riding against Froome but time and time again we be watched them empty themselves for him.

Now some of that is clever management and giving them alternative goals (LBL, MSR etc) but a lot of it has also got to be being able to pay 'em!

phreak

ddraver wrote:

Sky's biggest asset remains the ability to take people who should be riding GC for other teams (or one days) and making them empty themselves for the nominated GC rider.

Thomas, Kwiatowski, Poels etc should be riding against Froome but time and time again we be watched them empty themselves for him.

Now some of that is clever management and giving them alternative goals (LBL, MSR etc) but a lot of it has also got to be being able to pay 'em!

To be fair though, their domestiques are usually those who have got a top 10 GC under their belt, but haven't looked like having enough to challenge. Porte fitted that bill perfectly until he progressed such that they couldn't keep him. Landa likewise. Ellisonde, for instance, has a best placing of 16th, suggesting he's a fine rider but not likely to challenge for wins. Henao has been similar, with a best result of 9th but an average placing of 18th. Poels has been similar. Kiryenka had similar results before moving to Sky. Even Thomas has a best placing of 15th, and I suspect if he wasn't British he wouldn't be touted as a GC contender quite so much.

mrfpb

No tA Doctor wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Am I right that the only other rider who has won all three GTs in a row is Merckx? And that he has 4 back to back GT wins?
72 - Giro, Tour
73 - Vuelta, Giro

Bernard Hinault. 82 Giro & Tour, 83 Vuelta

Merci. Thought I might be wrong, all this moving the Vuelta confuses me.

So if he wins the Tour, does his achievement there surpass Merckx's, given that Merckx only had one Tour in his four?

And in the realms of pure conjecture, if he did win the Tour, and it was reasonably comfortable, would he be tempted to reach for the impossible at the Vuelta (assuming he's not suspended)? Surely not... but he's just a leeetle bit driven to leave his mark on history...

It would fly in the face of history. Only two riders have acheived top 10 in all three in a calendar year, and about 40 have completed all three in a calendar year. It's nearlt 10 weeks of racing in a four month window. The two triple top 10s were in the 50s when the Vuelta was only two weeks long.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Crown_of_Cycling

davidof

Matthewfalle wrote:

Personally I think a lot of it boils down to as per one of the posts above: for professional very well funded teams, a lot of them are so amateurish

I was checking out the serious French bike forums to see how they handled Froome's win. One guy wrote "what Chris Froome did is give the other riders a lesson in how to win a bike race".

I always feel that what is stopping Peanut and Bardet from winning a Grand Tour is being on a French team. Cyril Guimard said a similar thing about Pinot.

rick_chasey

Matthewfalle wrote:

Personally I think a lot of it boils down to as per one of the posts above: for professional very well funded teams, a lot of them are so amateurish - the fluoro t shirted feeders, the pillows, all that jazz: it's basics, basics, basics.

Some teams don't recce stages, feed zones are not catered for, all that stuf: all Sky have done is take a step back and gone "right, if it works it's not stupid - let's give it a bash" and thought laterally, leading to great success. It's almost like they have sat down with everyone round a big table down the pub and Said "right lads, what do you say - no idea is silly" and lots of people's personal experiences have come out

Turbo training warm up and cool down - why haven't all teams been doing this for decades (it's what serious amateurs have been doing since I was competitively racing at a high level). Cater to the riders' whims and they will benefit mentally.
None of this is rocket science.

Could it be down to a lot of the DS staff not being old school French/Belgian/Italian and therefore stuck in old ways?

Same goes for Team Gb - bit of lateral thinking bought massive gains.

It’s a bit of a myth that it’s only sky that does all that.

Who was the first team to bring their own chef and kitchen to a race?

Who was the first team to bring their own matrasses, shower heads, air purifiers to grand Tours?

Who was the first team to recce every big stage of a GT?

Here’s a clue; not sky.

A lot of teams work hard on innovating that side of things.

They don’t bang on about it in English papers.

RichN95.

They were certainly the first ones to bring all the rider coaching in-house though, which was a bigger thing that any of those

rick_chasey

Sure.

Though I’d argue Lance tried to do that with Ferrari and eventually managed to do that.

rick_chasey

In fact, in many respects, both American Tour winners, LeMond and Armstrong did more than sky ever have in terms of professionalisation and pushing the envelope in terms of advantages in kit, diet, nutrition, training, knowledge etc etc.

davidof

Rick Chasey wrote:

In fact, in many respects, both American Tour winners, LeMond ... did more than sky ever have in terms of ... advantages in kit

They are still whinging about Lemond's tri bars in France.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

In fact, in many respects, both American Tour winners, LeMond and Armstrong did more than sky ever have in terms of professionalisation and pushing the envelope in terms of advantages in kit, diet, nutrition, training, knowledge etc etc.

LeMond said on Eurosport once that he'd believe in marginal gains :roll:

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Sure.

Though I’d argue Lance tried to do that with Ferrari and eventually managed to do that.

He wasn't full time staff though. In fairness what Sky pioneered has only been possible since the advent of recordable powermeters and the internet.

I read an interview with Bardet a year or two ago. When he first turned up at AG2R (about 2011?) he said they didn't have a coach on the team staff.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Sure.

Though I’d argue Lance tried to do that with Ferrari and eventually managed to do that.

He wasn't full time staff though. In fairness what Sky pioneered has only been possible since the advent of recordable powermeters and the internet.

He basically was.

I mean what was it, €300,000 a year?

Exclusive to USP/discovery, used to phone in tactics, training tips etc.

Went out with Lance to the Alps when he was recceing then etc.

No_Ta_Doctor

It's not really important if they're first to do something or just early adopters. As long as they're doing more of the small things than others are. Anyone that's ever worked in a lean company knows this stuff, it's fairly basic. If they're doing it properly then they should be measuring a load of stuff as well to see where there the possibility of doing it more efficiently. I'm not even talking about racing and power output and all that here - just stuff that takes some hassle away from the riders, saves them a couple of minutes rest here and there.

I saw a GCN vid today of "what did you do on your rest day" - the Sky riders (and some others) were clear, they slept longer, took a short spin with a coffee stop, got a massage, chilled out. Froome did some media. There were other riders interviewed who sounded like they'd been busy with loads of shit, a few who said it "wasn't really a rest day".

bikes`n`guns

As long as Froome (Sky) carries on winning the races that feature highly on international news programmes, then Sky will carry on throwing multi millions at the team and it will repeat itself year after year.

I find him classless, style-less impressive but completely without soul, which makes him much less interesting to youngsters following the sport.

My Grandchildren rate Wiggins and Cavendish much more highly, which says a lot to me s a follower of 70`s cycling.


Money talks

RichN95.

I've followed Froome more closely than most since 2008 when he turned British. I knew a guy who worked with (but not for) British Cycling. He heard what they said and they thought that they had found a rough diamond (they wanted him to be team leader at the 2008 Olympics). The verdict was 'incredible athlete, terrible bike rider'. I wanted a British GC contender and I was told he could be it. He disappointed, but showed progression in 2011. While the 2011 Vuelta was a surprise, it was the rider I had been told about in 2008.

mamil314

Bikes`n`guns wrote:

As long as Froome (Sky) carries on winning the races that feature highly on international news programmes, then Sky will carry on throwing multi millions at the team and it will repeat itself year after year.

I find him classless, style-less impressive but completely without soul, which makes him much less interesting to youngsters following the sport.

My Grandchildren rate Wiggins and Cavendish much more highly, which says a lot to me s a follower of 70`s cycling.


Money talks

What a cynical post. FYI, introverts do not lack passion, they just express it differently. Or not bother wasting energy in communicating it in any other way than final result, that speaks (apparently, only to some) louder than charismatic monkeying around. I am impressed every time seeing him grit teeth and carry out his media duties as, of course, without fans, there hardly would be a sport.

I realise I am falling on deaf ears, people just don't like him, as clearly shown at SPOTY rankings year after year. Not surprising, to be honest, since folks can't seem to recognize the good stuff and we now have brexit and orange leader etc.

m.r.m.

Froome seems utterly calculated in everything he every says. Love him as a rider and think he is exciting and desperate to be loved and will do anything to gain the respect and affection of fans. He is cursed though to never really attain what some others greatly beneath him in ability have: the love of an adoring public.

Bo Duke

mamil314 wrote:

Bikes`n`guns wrote:

As long as Froome (Sky) carries on winning the races that feature highly on international news programmes, then Sky will carry on throwing multi millions at the team and it will repeat itself year after year.

I find him classless, style-less impressive but completely without soul, which makes him much less interesting to youngsters following the sport.

My Grandchildren rate Wiggins and Cavendish much more highly, which says a lot to me s a follower of 70`s cycling.

Money talks

What a cynical post. FYI, introverts do not lack passion, they just express it differently. Or not bother wasting energy in communicating it in any other way than final result, that speaks (apparently, only to some) louder than charismatic monkeying around. I am impressed every time seeing him grit teeth and carry out his media duties as, of course, without fans, there hardly would be a sport.

I realise I am falling on deaf ears, people just don't like him, as clearly shown at SPOTY rankings year after year. Not surprising, to be honest, since folks can't seem to recognize the good stuff and we now have brexit and orange leader etc.

Good post.

Folks today want instant gratification and don't understand the single determination required to get to Froome's level of commitment and success. He doesn't perform for social reasons, he's not addicted to his image, he simply focuses on his stem until he's destroyed the field and achieved his objective. Now that doesn't fit in with today's modern culture, he doesn't give photo opportunities, he doesn't show emotion he doesn't try to please the fans. He performs.

Folks are fickle, many would rather have a cheating LA because he was more of a character than Froome. Crazy.

pblakeney

mamil314 wrote:

Bikes`n`guns wrote:

As long as Froome (Sky) carries on winning the races that feature highly on international news programmes, then Sky will carry on throwing multi millions at the team and it will repeat itself year after year.

I find him classless, style-less impressive but completely without soul, which makes him much less interesting to youngsters following the sport.

My Grandchildren rate Wiggins and Cavendish much more highly, which says a lot to me s a follower of 70`s cycling.


Money talks

What a cynical post. FYI, introverts do not lack passion, they just express it differently. Or not bother wasting energy in communicating it in any other way than final result, that speaks (apparently, only to some) louder than charismatic monkeying around. I am impressed every time seeing him grit teeth and carry out his media duties as, of course, without fans, there hardly would be a sport.

I realise I am falling on deaf ears, people just don't like him, as clearly shown at SPOTY rankings year after year. Not surprising, to be honest, since folks can't seem to recognize the good stuff and we now have brexit and orange leader etc.

This. I am only interested in what any sportsperson does while competing.
Friday was one of the most entertaining stages, ever. Purely down to Froome. Personality outside? Why care?

iainf72

davidof wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

In fact, in many respects, both American Tour winners, LeMond ... did more than sky ever have in terms of ... advantages in kit

They are still whinging about Lemond's tri bars in France.

To be a bit Rick about it, Lemond didn't introduce them in pro cycling. That was 7-Eleven, he just copied.