How good is Chris Froome?

iainf72

jerry3571 wrote:

Think I'm sitting up here. I've seen this one before with Lance. You Folks carry on.. So done this before.

Lance did a long solo break? I must've missed that.

above_the_cows

Milemuncher1 wrote:

I rode with Chris Froome a couple of years back, he was doing some wind tunnel work at Southampton Uni, and wanted to ride from Southampton to Winchester. It was about 20 miles, and he was very chatty. A nice guy as well as a great rider, that’s a rare combination.

Ooo ooo which way did you go? My old roads those.

RichN95.

jerry3571 wrote:

If you sit behind someone doing 35mph on a descent then you're doing jack. If you're hacking on you're own you are working like nutter to keep that speed. Also, if Froome is getting away on every descent he's sprinting out of each bend. If you've ridden mountains or done crits then bends break your legs. He's out in the wind on his todd for 50 miles. No one to take the wind. Descents aren't sitting in your fanny and looking at the views.
Also power doubles from 20mph to 25 mph then at higher speeds, Froome's power must be so much more. If the pace was so easy then the Movistar kid and Lopez would have got away. They couldn't.
If it was so simple then everyone would be doing a Froome. Trouble is they get caught back.
The truth will out, hopefully.

Pinot, Lopez and Carapaz weren't racing Froome, they were racing each other for a podium spot/white jersey. They had no motivation to chase Froome, especially once Pozzovivo was minutes behind.

ddraver

Jerry

You remember back when you were a teenager and a girl/boy dumped you? Happens to the best of us and makes us into rounded humans after all.

However, all these years later do you still judge every girl you meet by the actions of that one girl? Just because she tossed your best mate off behind the bike shed all girls are cheating scum?*

I suspect not

Do you see why it's a bit facile to go, '...but Lance!' every time someone wins a race now?

*I'm aware there are corners of the intwrweb where this very much happens

milemuncher1

Above The Cows wrote:

Milemuncher1 wrote:

I rode with Chris Froome a couple of years back, he was doing some wind tunnel work at Southampton Uni, and wanted to ride from Southampton to Winchester. It was about 20 miles, and he was very chatty. A nice guy as well as a great rider, that’s a rare combination.

Ooo ooo which way did you go? My old roads those.

Out to Stockbridge and into Winchester via the back roads, we ended up at the Cathederal, then Froome swapped over to a Bolide, and rode off towards Gatwick, he was off to a training camp somewhere ( Tenerife if my memory serves me right).

jerry3571

iainf72 wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

Think I'm sitting up here. I've seen this one before with Lance. You Folks carry on.. So done this before.

Lance did a long solo break? I must've missed that.

No, not even Lance when he had Hein Vetbruggen in his back pocket took the piss so much.

hypster

jerry3571 wrote:

Think I'm sitting up here. I've seen this one before with Lance. You Folks carry on.. So done this before.

Most sensible thing I've seen you post.

above_the_cows

jerry3571 wrote:

Well when you got 4 or 5 riders chasing then it's crazy. There's no mention of Valley roads? If Froome doesn't need to sit behind a team of Sky riders then why does he do that for 95% of the time? Is it the 40% if energy saved?? This is why its not happened for over 40 years. Also if he's pushing on the lower slopes then the aero advantage for a group of riders is even greater. There's no way round this.

Did you watch it Jerry?

There were not 4 or 5 riders chasing. There was Dumoulin chasing. Thta's the whole point.

The rest were riding to protect their places on GC. That's the whole point. Pinot was riding to protect his third place on the podium and Lopez and Carapaz were racing each other for the young rider's jersey and no one else.

Reichenbach was as useful on the descents as one of these on the space shuttle meaning he actively slowed the group down as they kept having to wait for him because Pinot was not going to ride at all without him.

jerry3571

No, crazy zombie on here can recollect a time when over 3 minutes was taken out of all the other gc riders.
It's like a cult website I've entered in to :shock:

blazing_saddles

I'm just watching the Queen stage of the Tour of Belgium.
Jelle Vanendert attacks on the final climb, about 10 kms out and gets a small gap.
He is chased on the downhill and final 6 or 7 kms of flat by 4 riders and guess what?
They steadily lose time all along that section.
There is a name for these solo attacks: I think they call it bike racing.


I think the section of the cycling community who have already made up their minds, watched it and immediately thought: 'Froome, wtf'?

When I was watching it, I kept thinking wtf is the chase group and TD doing?

cq20

jerry3571 There are GC riders and there are GC riders. Froome would not have taken that time on the descents out of, for example, Nibali or Valverde (not that I’m using him as an example of probity). The data rather than emotion / prejudice is where you’ll find the answers

slim_boy_fat

jerry3571 wrote:

No, crazy zombie on here can recollect a time when over 3 minutes was taken out of all the other gc riders.
It's like a cult website I've entered in to :shock:

One minute ten on the first descent, a further thirty seconds on the other descent. So that leaves Froome taking a minute and a half over Dumoulin and Peanut, who would blow spectacularly the following day, over 80 km of racing. That's not unbelievable or even particularly surprising is it?

blazing_saddles

jerry3571 wrote:

No, crazy zombie on here can recollect a time when over 3 minutes was taken out of all the other gc riders.
It's like a cult website I've entered in to :shock:

I gave you one example above.
Here's another: Heras took well over 5 minutes out of race leader Menchov in Vuelta 2005, in one descent and one climb.

above_the_cows

Milemuncher1 wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Milemuncher1 wrote:

I rode with Chris Froome a couple of years back, he was doing some wind tunnel work at Southampton Uni, and wanted to ride from Southampton to Winchester. It was about 20 miles, and he was very chatty. A nice guy as well as a great rider, that’s a rare combination.

Ooo ooo which way did you go? My old roads those.

Out to Stockbridge and into Winchester via the back roads, we ended up at the Cathederal, then Froome swapped over to a Bolide, and rode off towards Gatwick, he was off to a training camp somewhere ( Tenerife if my memory serves me right).

I wonder what he thought of the road surfaces? :?

milemuncher1

Above The Cows wrote:

Milemuncher1 wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Milemuncher1 wrote:

I rode with Chris Froome a couple of years back, he was doing some wind tunnel work at Southampton Uni, and wanted to ride from Southampton to Winchester. It was about 20 miles, and he was very chatty. A nice guy as well as a great rider, that’s a rare combination.

Ooo ooo which way did you go? My old roads those.

Out to Stockbridge and into Winchester via the back roads, we ended up at the Cathederal, then Froome swapped over to a Bolide, and rode off towards Gatwick, he was off to a training camp somewhere ( Tenerife if my memory serves me right).

I wonder what he thought of the road surfaces? :?

He did say he’d ridden on smoother surfaces

mididoctors

I think it was a mistake for TD to wait for RB and thought so at the time. I could be wrong

slim_boy_fat

mididoctors wrote:

I think it was a mistake for TD to wait for RB and thought so at the time. I could be wrong

At that stage of the race it was TD v CF. TD should have treated it as a TT against CF. Maybe he just didn't realise it at the time. Biggest mistake of the Giro.

above_the_cows

Blazing Saddles wrote:

When I was watching it, I kept thinking wtf is the chase group and TD doing?

^This.

above_the_cows

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

I think it was a mistake for TD to wait for RB and thought so at the time. I could be wrong

At that stage of the race it was TD v CF. TD should have treated it as a TT against CF. Maybe he just didn't realise it at the time. Biggest mistake of the Giro.

I think Tom lost the Giro as much as Froome won it over those 80km.

bobmcstuff

mididoctors wrote:

I think it was a mistake for TD to wait for RB and thought so at the time. I could be wrong

When a group came over the Finestre I thought Froome was going to get caught. Then they waited for Reichenbach, which seemed very sensible at the time but I wasn't aware of Reichenbachs extremely poor descending or how useless he was going to be on the valley roads.

As to whether Froome is doping, well we'll find out sooner or later. Somewhat surprised there hasn't been a disgruntled soigneur etc yet, given sky's habit of winding people up.

Back in the day you'd assume it was a blood bag, but that's so easy to detect these days through bio passport it seems that it must be a different method or product, if it was illicit at all. Who knows really.

m.r.m.

jerry3571 wrote:

If you sit behind someone doing 35mph on a descent then you're doing jack. If you're hacking on you're own you are working like nutter to keep that speed. Also, if Froome is getting away on every descent he's sprinting out of each bend. If you've ridden mountains or done crits then bends break your legs. He's out in the wind on his todd for 50 miles. No one to take the wind. Descents aren't sitting in your fanny and looking at the views.
Also power doubles from 20mph to 25 mph then at higher speeds, Froome's power must be so much more. If the pace was so easy then the Movistar kid and Lopez would have got away. They couldn't.
If it was so simple then everyone would be doing a Froome. Trouble is they get caught back.
The truth will out, hopefully.

Utterly false. Sagan dropped Pantano on the descent of the Col de Manse in the Tour due to accelerating stronger out of corners and weighing more (both have excellent technique). Dumoulin however is not a great descender. Dumoulin got dropped by Kwiatkowski in San Sebastian last year and caught back on on the flat. In this case they repeatedly waited for Reichenbach on the flats which cost them a bunch of time in addition to descending slower. Froome is a much better descender than Dumoulin; Pinot and Reichenbach are known to be very bad at descending. If the entire group had worked and they hadn't waited for Reichenbach, Froome would not have won pink.

Froome put his head down and rode as hard as he could. The others played politics and games and that cost them. That is often the case in cycling and usually the reason an escape wins and this could be observed repeatedly especially in one day races this year.

This was a case of fantastic tactics and execution from Froome and Sky. Sometimes there is no other side to the coin.

You are suffering from confirmation bias, and that is just your ego dampening your intellect. No offense.

DeadCalm

I put Jerry on ignore many years ago because of some outlandish views on doping so I'm only seeing him when quoted but, if Philippa York, who knows a thing or two about cycling, also says that ride was unbelievable, I'm inclined to pay attention.

slim_boy_fat

DeadCalm wrote:

I put Jerry on ignore many years ago because of some outlandish views on doping so I'm only seeing him when quoted but, if Philippa York, who knows a thing or two about cycling, also says that ride was unbelievable, I'm inclined to pay attention.

Ignore what other people say, on here, on twitter, in the press. The Pippa York piece says absolutely nothing. Just look at the facts and form an opinion. Is it unbelievable for Froome to have gained a minute and a half over two of his rivals in 80 km of racing on the queen stage in the third week of a grand tour? That's the question you have to ask yourself.

DeadCalm

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

I put Jerry on ignore many years ago because of some outlandish views on doping so I'm only seeing him when quoted but, if Philippa York, who knows a thing or two about cycling, also says that ride was unbelievable, I'm inclined to pay attention.

Ignore what other people say, on here, on twitter, in the press. The Pippa York piece says absolutely nothing. Just look at the facts and form an opinion. Is it unbelievable for Froome to have gained a minute and a half over two of his rivals in 80 km of racing on the queen stage in the third week of a grand tour? That's the question you have to ask yourself.

So you know more about cycling than Pippa York? How many Grand Tours have you ridden?

slim_boy_fat

DeadCalm wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

I put Jerry on ignore many years ago because of some outlandish views on doping so I'm only seeing him when quoted but, if Philippa York, who knows a thing or two about cycling, also says that ride was unbelievable, I'm inclined to pay attention.

Ignore what other people say, on here, on twitter, in the press. The Pippa York piece says absolutely nothing. Just look at the facts and form an opinion. Is it unbelievable for Froome to have gained a minute and a half over two of his rivals in 80 km of racing on the queen stage in the third week of a grand tour? That's the question you have to ask yourself.

So you know more about cycling than Pippa York? How many Grand Tours have you ridden?

I didn't say I know more than Pippa York. I suggested it would be best if everyone considers the facts and forms an opinion. Any answer to the question I posed at the end?

r0bh

Above The Cows wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

I think it was a mistake for TD to wait for RB and thought so at the time. I could be wrong

At that stage of the race it was TD v CF. TD should have treated it as a TT against CF. Maybe he just didn't realise it at the time. Biggest mistake of the Giro.

I think Tom lost the Giro as much as Froome won it over those 80km.

Exactly this; if Tom D had ridden hard on the descent off the Finestre and the gap at the bottom was the same (or only slightly more) than at the top I think he would have had a good chance of winning the giro. If Froome's gap had hovered at 30"-1' for a sustained period of time (instead of constantly going out until they were on the final climb) maybe he wouldn't have even persisted, or at the least it would have been psychologically harder.

takethehighroad

DeadCalm wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

I put Jerry on ignore many years ago because of some outlandish views on doping so I'm only seeing him when quoted but, if Philippa York, who knows a thing or two about cycling, also says that ride was unbelievable, I'm inclined to pay attention.

Ignore what other people say, on here, on twitter, in the press. The Pippa York piece says absolutely nothing. Just look at the facts and form an opinion. Is it unbelievable for Froome to have gained a minute and a half over two of his rivals in 80 km of racing on the queen stage in the third week of a grand tour? That's the question you have to ask yourself.

So you know more about cycling than Pippa York? How many Grand Tours have you ridden?

I didn't realise one had to have ridden a Grand Tour to be able to have an opinion on cycling?

Does that mean that Adam Hansen's opinion is more valid than Simon Spillak's?

DeadCalm

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

I put Jerry on ignore many years ago because of some outlandish views on doping so I'm only seeing him when quoted but, if Philippa York, who knows a thing or two about cycling, also says that ride was unbelievable, I'm inclined to pay attention.

Ignore what other people say, on here, on twitter, in the press. The Pippa York piece says absolutely nothing. Just look at the facts and form an opinion. Is it unbelievable for Froome to have gained a minute and a half over two of his rivals in 80 km of racing on the queen stage in the third week of a grand tour? That's the question you have to ask yourself.

So you know more about cycling than Pippa York? How many Grand Tours have you ridden?

I didn't say I know more than Pippa York. I suggested it would be best if everyone considers the facts and forms an opinion. Any answer to the question I posed at the end?

Okay. I was extremely sceptical when I watched the ride. I'd have been less so if he'd been dominant from the off but he wasn't. I've been dubious about claims of riders riding themselves into form during a Grand Tour. From my experience, that's not how the body works. Reading the Pippa York piece has raised my levels of scepticism.

DeadCalm

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

I put Jerry on ignore many years ago because of some outlandish views on doping so I'm only seeing him when quoted but, if Philippa York, who knows a thing or two about cycling, also says that ride was unbelievable, I'm inclined to pay attention.

Ignore what other people say, on here, on twitter, in the press. The Pippa York piece says absolutely nothing. Just look at the facts and form an opinion. Is it unbelievable for Froome to have gained a minute and a half over two of his rivals in 80 km of racing on the queen stage in the third week of a grand tour? That's the question you have to ask yourself.

So you know more about cycling than Pippa York? How many Grand Tours have you ridden?

I didn't realise one had to have ridden a Grand Tour to be able to have an opinion on cycling?

Yes.

Well, no, obviously. But I might give a touch more weight to the opinion of someone that has.

phreak

If you look at the grand prix des nations, it wasn't uncommon for people to win by three minutes over an 80km time trial.