Donald Trump

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  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    step83 said:

    orraloon said:

    'Fiddly squat'? Is that to with those Russian hookers in that Moscow hotel?

    Thats the name of the company said hookers are from?

    Bolton's thrown an interesting spanner in the works, his new book seems to say Trump said to with hold aid. But Trump and the Republicans don't want him to testify citing national security as a reason.
    The Democrats for obvious reasons want his testimony so its now an awkward stalemate on that front.
    I think if he's written it down in a book, and the New York Times have a copy, it's a bit tricky to say the Senators shouldn't hear it.

    What I don't understand is why it is only a few senators like Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski who get the bile because they seem moderate-ish and then don't vote with the Democrats. There are 50 other Republicans, but because they have set expectations so low, they don't get the same level of criticism. Excluding McConnell because he is very much a special case (on a "history books will be written about him" scale).
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,317
    orraloon said:

    'Fiddly squat'? Is that to with those Russian hookers in that Moscow hotel?

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  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    This thread has gone quiet. Are the regulars sulking that the actions of the Democrats look to have given Trump another 4 years in office? :smiley:
  • step83
    step83 Posts: 4,170
    coopster_the_1st said:

    This thread has gone quiet. Are the regulars sulking that the actions of the Democrats look to have given Trump another 4 years in office? :smiley:

    More nothing to actually comment on, it was never really going to go through with to the Republican majority as they were voting down party lines.
    That and the defence would only allow witnesses if they could put the Biden's on the stand to basically try an trigger the investigation the current administration were trying to get in the first place, or to cast them in a light which would make Trump appear whiter than his current shade of wotsit orange.

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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Oh don't bite, the guy's an idiot who barely knows what words mean.
    _
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Just tear up your copy of the state of the union address and move on.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    edited February 2020
    coopster_the_1st said:

    This thread has gone quiet. Are the regulars sulking that the actions of the Democrats look to have given Trump another 4 years in office? :smiley:

    He's got a 52% disapprove rating on an average of polls. And that's the kind of number that is pretty much conclusive.
  • Longshot
    Longshot Posts: 940
    kingstongraham said:

    coopster_the_1st said:

    This thread has gone quiet. Are the regulars sulking that the actions of the Democrats look to have given Trump another 4 years in office? :smiley:

    He's got a 52% disapprove rating on an average of polls. And that's the kind of number that is pretty much conclusive.
    Are you suggesting it's the will of the people?!

    You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    If you like, you can see him trying to read "sanctuary" in the state of the union.

  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    I await his acquittal and self proclaimed victory against the elite with interest. It will be about as much of a victory as the local wife beater getting off on an assault charge because the victim has forgiven him.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    john80 said:

    I await his acquittal and self proclaimed victory against the elite with interest. It will be about as much of a victory as the local wife beater getting off on an assault charge because the victim has forgiven him.

    Not really - it would be like the local wife beater getting off an assault charge because when it came to trial, the person responsible for running the trial and over half the jurors depend on him for their jobs and the judge is his friend.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    kingstongraham said:

    john80 said:

    I await his acquittal and self proclaimed victory against the elite with interest. It will be about as much of a victory as the local wife beater getting off on an assault charge because the victim has forgiven him.

    Not really - it would be like the local wife beater getting off an assault charge because when it came to trial, the person responsible for running the trial and over half the jurors depend on him for their jobs and the judge is his friend.
    Which is interesting given what we saw in the UK in the back end of 2019.
    The US system is currently demonstrating quite clearly the the judgement (right or wrong) is heavily subjective.
    Whereas we had our courts rather than politicians ruling on similar types of constitutional legal issues. This was seen/portrayed as judges meddling in politics.
    Shows why objectivity is so important in deciding what rules are applied and the mechanisms used to apply them.

    For the avoidance of doubt. I think we got it right and not because I liked the outcome (which I acknowledge I did).
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    The states is a good illustration (though there are tonnes around), that the integrity of democracy is ultimately always dependent on those in power acting in good faith.
    _
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    Unfortunately it's a sign of the way politics is going. You can get away with anything if you manage to instill a feeling of them and us and that you are part of the us.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,227
    I think with the US Senate GOPs is a knowledge that had better be one of 'us' or else.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    From MotherJones:"The country’s largest state, California, has 68 times the population of the smallest one, Wyoming, yet they have the same number of seats in the Senate."

    "Because removing a president from office requires support from two-thirds of senators, it’s now possible for 34 senators representing the 17 least-populous states with just 7 percent of the country’s population to prevent Trump’s ouster."

    Our system is bad, but the US system is even more dependent on people accepting that some things are beyond the pale, like Rick says.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Trump's inevitable acquittal is something that could have had repercussions either way: if the Democrats could push the line of the corrupt and cowardly Republicans flouting the law to save a ridiculous and criminal president then that could have benefitted them.

    But I think what has really undermined that is the pathetic Iowa caucuses. Not looking good for the Dems.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    I don't think the impeachment swung it much either way as the polling suggests the view is so closely correlated to which party you support.

    I think the concern now is between now and the election Trump is emboldened to really flout the law even more than he has been already.
    _
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    Pross said:

    Unfortunately it's a sign of the way politics is going. You can get away with anything if you manage to instill a feeling of them and us and that you are part of the us.

    And the Democrats have not added fuel to the 'them & us' with their constant bleating at losing and refusal to accept the election result?

    The above described actions of the democrats is the reason this impeachment has failed. It comes across as more whinging from the losers and dilutes the actual issue. I, as I'm sure is the same with many others have tuned out because of the constant noise from the whingers.

    I am of the view that in 9 months the American electorate will decide on Trump as President but the actions of the Democrats over the last 3 years are only improving Trump's chances of being re-elected
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,398
    Trump will now use his impeachment acquittal as a weapon against the Democrats.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    Stevo_666 said:

    Trump will now use his impeachment acquittal as a weapon against the Democrats.

    100% this.

    Had the Deomcrats not take the impeachment action it would have meant they could have used this against Trump and thus constantly reinforce uncertainty in the swing voters mind.

    What this really demostrates is how myopic the Democrats have become and how they have lost sight of the big picture.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    coopster_the_1st said:

    Pross said:

    Unfortunately it's a sign of the way politics is going. You can get away with anything if you manage to instill a feeling of them and us and that you are part of the us.

    And the Democrats have not added fuel to the 'them & us' with their constant bleating at losing and refusal to accept the election result?

    The above described actions of the democrats is the reason this impeachment has failed. It comes across as more whinging from the losers and dilutes the actual issue. I, as I'm sure is the same with many others have tuned out because of the constant noise from the whingers.

    I am of the view that in 9 months the American electorate will decide on Trump as President but the actions of the Democrats over the last 3 years are only improving Trump's chances of being re-elected
    I hear these arguments, but I don't understand why any of them are taken seriously.

    If Trump keeps on being corrupt, do you want the Democrats to keep quiet about it because the Republicans will always accept his corruption? That sounds like the argument.

    The two things I see as valid arguments against the impeachment are
    1) The articles were too narrow. He has obstructed justice so much (as is detailed in the Mueller report), been so corrupt with his use of his own properties, broken electoral finance laws, and had so many associates to his campaign end convicted, that to focus it on just Ukraine was a mistake. This meant that some could dismiss it as bad but not important, and deliberately ignore all the other stuff.
    2) Not issuing subpoenas. Even though they would have been ignored, and challenged, not issuing them gives a useful bad faith talking point. That said, if they had issued them, then they would have been criticised if they didn't wait until 2021 for the Supreme Court to rule on them, so it is a bit pointless.

    All that said, even though they know he's guilty, the senators decided that they would rather him than Mike Pence - it wasn't them choosing between Trump and Hillary. That bit, I can almost understand.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    kingstongraham said:

    This meant that some could dismiss it as bad but not important, and deliberately ignore all the other stuff.
    ...
    All that said, even though they know he's guilty, the senators decided that they would rather him than Mike Pence

    It doesn't matter how bad or important it was: I get the feeling that the Rep senators would have acquitted him of literally anything as long as they felt their core voters were backing him.

    Fundamentally he is a mob boss, they are scared of his power and tainted by asociation with him, so they have to stick by him. The only hope is that there might be something, somehow, that gets through to his base and turns them against him - then watch how fast the rats desert the sinking ship.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    They've managed to reach the Orwellian stage where anything that is said by a Democrat is inherently biased and tainted, and anyone who criticises Trump is at heart a Democrat. This now means that the Republican who was their candidate to be president two elections ago, is now regarded as really a Democrat, and therefore a traitor.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    kingstongraham said:

    They've managed to reach the Orwellian stage where anything that is said by a Democrat is inherently biased and tainted, and anyone who criticises Trump is at heart a Democrat. This now means that the Republican who was their candidate to be president two elections ago, is now regarded as really a Democrat, and therefore a traitor.

    So how has fuelled the them and us?

    Those who won and deny Trump does anything wrong

    Or those who lost, refuse to accept the result and have been on a constant whinge since that day.

    You would think the Democrats would look across the pond to the UK to see how the electorate deal with those who do not accept democratic results.

    There was not this level of vitriol prior to 2016 on either side of the pond, and with hindsight it seems the refusal of the losers to accept the results is the reason for fuelling the them and us.
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    coopster_the_1st said:

    kingstongraham said:

    They've managed to reach the Orwellian stage where anything that is said by a Democrat is inherently biased and tainted, and anyone who criticises Trump is at heart a Democrat. This now means that the Republican who was their candidate to be president two elections ago, is now regarded as really a Democrat, and therefore a traitor.

    So how has fuelled the them and us?

    Those who won and deny Trump does anything wrong

    Or those who lost, refuse to accept the result and have been on a constant whinge since that day.

    You would think the Democrats would look across the pond to the UK to see how the electorate deal with those who do not accept democratic results.

    There was not this level of vitriol prior to 2016 on either side of the pond, and with hindsight it seems the refusal of the losers to accept the results is the reason for fuelling the them and us.
    I think the Dems accept that they lost. It's just that they (much like the rest of the world if they're honest) see him as a walking disaster.
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  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    coopster_the_1st said:

    kingstongraham said:

    They've managed to reach the Orwellian stage where anything that is said by a Democrat is inherently biased and tainted, and anyone who criticises Trump is at heart a Democrat. This now means that the Republican who was their candidate to be president two elections ago, is now regarded as really a Democrat, and therefore a traitor.

    So how has fuelled the them and us?

    Those who won and deny Trump does anything wrong

    Or those who lost, refuse to accept the result and have been on a constant whinge since that day.

    You would think the Democrats would look across the pond to the UK to see how the electorate deal with those who do not accept democratic results.

    There was not this level of vitriol prior to 2016 on either side of the pond, and with hindsight it seems the refusal of the losers to accept the results is the reason for fuelling the them and us.
    Sorry, now I realise that it's their fault for not just accepting that the people voted for a corrupt lawbreaker. If they had accepted that and left him to get on with his abuse of power, then they'd be much better off.

    That said, isn't it weird how Trump keeps on saying that because of the impeachment hoax, he can't get anything done, and also that he has delivered on all his promises? Almost like he's full of bs.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    kingstongraham said:

    coopster_the_1st said:

    kingstongraham said:

    They've managed to reach the Orwellian stage where anything that is said by a Democrat is inherently biased and tainted, and anyone who criticises Trump is at heart a Democrat. This now means that the Republican who was their candidate to be president two elections ago, is now regarded as really a Democrat, and therefore a traitor.

    So how has fuelled the them and us?

    Those who won and deny Trump does anything wrong

    Or those who lost, refuse to accept the result and have been on a constant whinge since that day.

    You would think the Democrats would look across the pond to the UK to see how the electorate deal with those who do not accept democratic results.

    There was not this level of vitriol prior to 2016 on either side of the pond, and with hindsight it seems the refusal of the losers to accept the results is the reason for fuelling the them and us.
    Sorry, now I realise that it's their fault for not just accepting that the people voted for a corrupt lawbreaker. If they had accepted that and left him to get on with his abuse of power, then they'd be much better off.

    That said, isn't it weird how Trump keeps on saying that because of the impeachment hoax, he can't get anything done, and also that he has delivered on all his promises? Almost like he's full of bs.
    The constant stream of whinging messaging from the losers has massively diluted the important issues that the Dems have.

    Now Trump is turning his impeachment against the Dems and using it to cover for what he has not delivered. That is good politics in my view and would be classified as such if it was the other way round. The Dems only have themselves to blame for allowing them to be out maneuvered.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    What would be good politics from the Dems?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    kingstongraham said:

    What would be good politics from the Dems?

    Better candidates.
    _

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