Are sky clean or not?
Comments
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. I bet if they go to Rio next year and win a bunch of golds then accusations will be made.
They already have been by the French track riders in 2012.BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
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. I bet if they go to Rio next year and win a bunch of golds then accusations will be made.
They already have been by the French track riders in 2012.
Well, one anyway: Monsieur Gregory 'Whereabouts' Bauge0 -
Exactly - I should have said "made again"!. I bet if they go to Rio next year and win a bunch of golds then accusations will be made.
They already have been by the French track riders in 2012.
If you check the other tweets from the account he retweeted, there's this one, translated:Macaloon wrote:Isn't the (claimed) source a Movistar team doctor?
No idea. I suppose there is a chance that Vayer means 'Yes. That's what it says.' Rather than 'Yes. I agree.'According to J.I. Gutierrez, Movistar doctor Jesus Hoyos, said that Quintana was 6.76W / kg day Alpe d'Huez0 -
I thought that one had been cleared up?[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19667213#p19667213]Richmond Racer 2[/url] wrote:. I bet if they go to Rio next year and win a bunch of golds then accusations will be made.
They already have been by the French track riders in 2012.
Well, one anyway: Monsieur Gregory 'Whereabouts' Bauge
Rounder wheels?
Edit:linky0 -
I thought that one had been cleared up?[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19667213#p19667213]Richmond Racer 2[/url] wrote:. I bet if they go to Rio next year and win a bunch of golds then accusations will be made.
They already have been by the French track riders in 2012.
Well, one anyway: Monsieur Gregory 'Whereabouts' Bauge
Rounder wheels?
Edit:linky
The French are incredible, thats the exact same situation as this year at the tour, their riders do terrible so they start throwing accusations at the successful team.0 -
so after 60 pages we still don't have any actual evidence or even a rumour from a former rider or team insider that anything dodgy is going on.
Based on a tour with less all out stinging attacks, like we used to get a few years ago in the mountains, the sport looks to be getting cleaner, or at least less gains from cheating0 -
In the meantime let us keep hurling abuse, urine and punches at Froome and other SKy riders until the truth is out. Sorry but all this pathetic attempts to generate evidence and keep the doubt running is not evidence but it is helping to fuel the abuse these riders are getting.
I have a novel idea, everything from that transformation is out there already and no anti-doping action or bans invoked. So let us drop that topic and focus on new evidence.
New evidence, what is that? A French physiologist from a campaigning or obsessive organization producing evidence from the race stats of the climb where Froome pushed hard. Evidence that has been peer reviewed to some extent and has not even been agreed as being relevant or even of value. Correct me if I am wrong those power calculations were generated using formulae that has not been accepted as reliable or accurate. Or they are similar to that of a lot of other good climbers.
So any more evidence that is recent to prove doping or a serious question over the Sky team and Froome?
So, perhaps all this rehashing of old matters or questionable calculations that most people will never understand is just adding duel to the fire in the bellies of those objectionable people abusing riders in the greatest annual sporting event in the world. IMHO this is damaging the whole sport not helping to clear out the dopers.
What is the answer? Let the anti-dopers root out the doping teams, riders and coaches. Let the riders and teams focus on the racing and the public on the spectacle and majesty of the performances (doped or not). Then if doping is retrospectively discovered sort it out then, strip results and rank from those involved. Anything else is all reputational damage and shrapnel that is just hitting the whole sport.
Just my opinion,developed as I am just one of those general public who has no inclination to learn about power data, Who only want the binary result of guilty and banned or innocent until proven guilty and racing with the respect due a clean rider. One who also does not want to see disgraceful actions of so called fans and the ramblings of pundits, internet warriors and smear merchants who have never provided the evidence or the smoking gun that the anti-doping authorities can run down to catch the guilty.0 -
Does anyone know what Contador's 2009 Alpe figure was using Vayer's 'scientific' method ?
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Don't think they did the the Alpe in 2009, did they? Tucker has a page on Contador's Verbier performance from that year here that I think I linked to earlier in the thread as well, giving a figure of 6.78W/kg! Reading the article you will note the massive difference in attitude compared to his more recent treatment of Froome, despite the astronomical W/kg figure - he's very keen to point out the potential impact of the wind, the race situation, the characteristics of the climb, etc, before topping it off by saying "I will say that performance analysis of single performances does not constitute proof of anything"... it's hilarious.Does anyone know what Contador's 2009 Alpe figure was using Vayer's 'scientific' method ?
I think Vayer's stats for Contador are here although I don't know why there are so many empty spaces in the data (for other riders too).
The slight flaw in that plan is that the "anti-dopers" are rabid idiots already convinced that doping is going on, and as we saw in the last few weeks, they can make it difficult to focus on the racing by inflaming opinions and attempting to influence the media coverage around races (assuming the leader is someone they don't like).Tangled Metal wrote:What is the answer? Let the anti-dopers root out the doping teams, riders and coaches. Let the riders and teams focus on the racing and the public on the spectacle and majesty of the performances (doped or not).0 -
You guys are bizarre. Some nutter comes here and posts some tosh then gets banned then we have 60, SIXTY, pages of you continuing the thread. A few posts fine but there really are more interesting things to discuss. Seriously, if you love sky attacking and defeinding regarding doping that much then do yourself a favor and head to the clinic.Contador is the Greatest0
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Doping was a more dominant narrative at the Tour than Sky dominance. This is more a general doping thread covering the last two years of nothing happening.
How can you not enjoy the spectacle of so many people being @sshats in public? Also, there's nothing wrong with gasping at the Nairo/Mov double-standard.
edit: Forgot about SkyLimit. It's a pity the discussion was so one-sided. A thinking zoomer would have added much....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
Does anyone know what Contador's 2009 Alpe figure was using Vayer's 'scientific' method ?
if they all had the same power output on plateau de beille why didn't they finish in weight order, lightest first?"Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago0 -
I am unconvinced by any of this "expert analysis" on either side of the argument
I think sky are clean just based on their demeanour. If they are lying its would be so cynical and conducted in a extremely convincing way it beggars belife. just the way they hold themselves alone strikes me as a bunch of guys comfortable with themselves given the history of the sport.
not saying I couldn't be wrong and be fooled but its been a few years now since bradders win in 2012. something beyond some random crap by vayer should have surfaced by now and I'm not seeing it. Armstrongs comeback and high cadence low weight chris carmichael chemo explanation had me semi-fooled for one tour.
I'm not seeing any real cracks in the narrative sky are putting out"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
if they all had the same power output on plateau de beille why didn't they finish in weight order, lightest first?
I believe Vayer's model involves normalising rider weight to 70kg. I'm no expert, but I've seen that method criticised....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
As I have pointed out before, Froome didn't have that huge a jump in performance at a GT, actually pretty similar to others:
Contador went from 31st to 1st, Froome went from 34th to 2nd, Nibali went from 20th to 6th, Quintana went from 36th to 2nd.
All pretty similar jumps in performance, I know its not scientific but it's interesting.
That's an interesting comparison.
One, slight oddity that I have noticed Digger keep banging on about, is that Froome suffered from bilharzia and also has asthma...according to him, that's impossible...although the guardian appears to suggest that what is hypothesized is that diseases like bilharzia reduce how common stuff like asthma is...
but Froomy doesnt have common or garden asthma, he has exercise induced asthma, so the symptoms,impact and even treatment might be the same, but the root cause and suceptibility to it are different,its not even necessarily a condition he grew up with.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19667187#p19667187]Richmond Racer 2[/url] wrote:Who wants to upset the applecart?' I assume you're trolling. Ho ho ho
You seriously think the likes of Kimmage would go 'oh no, I'll sit on this, wouldn't want to upset the nice British people'
The question is how would Kimmage (or whoever) get credible evidence? Someone on the inside at Sky would have to sacrifice their reputation and potentially their career prospects and risk a run-in with Murdoch's lawyers by going public. And for what? A few book sales in France? (Once the news came out, there'd be no need for anyone to actually buy a copy of "Chris Froome - My part in his downfall" by the "Doping Domestique".)
The GB Public won't currently accept unsubstantiated claims that their Olympic heroes were dopers. Folk are very loyal to their heroes. If Kimmage had credible evidence then of course he wouldn't sit on it to protect the sensibilities of the GB Public, but until there is credible evidence, suggestions of doping at Sky will simply get batted off.
The "upset the applecart" comment was a reference to the likelihood of someone in "The Establishment" blowing the whistle. Sir Dave? Cookson? Highly unlikely as a major doping scandal at Sky / GB Cycling would have horrible implications for funding (particularly of officials with expense accounts) of Olympic sports in the UK.
Of course, the absence of any confessions from inside Sky might well be because there's nothing about which to confess. I don't know. And I'm not really particularly bothered - I just find the subject of Froome's transformation and Sky's PR spiel very interesting!! Froome seems like a nice guy, so good luck to him.0 -
^however...all of the above held true for Lance and USPS. Yet ex-team mates and ex-staff still came forward - and relatively quickly in the immediate years following 1999.
Its not just current staff who could blow the whistle. Brailsford has released loads of riders and backroom staff during his tenure running Sky and GB. Plenty of disgruntled people around.
But as you say, no credible evidence for anyone to run with - in 5.5 years of Sky, and 11 years of running the track programme. Time will tell, but as of this point its seems inarguable that there is toot in the way of whistleblowers - or evidence that stands up in any way.
FTR I struggle myself with the Vuelta transformation shiz0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19667676#p19667676]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:The GB Public won't currently accept unsubstantiated claims that their Olympic heroes were dopers.
The baxxards! I would hope and trust that "unsubstantiated claims" are never accepted as evidence in any form.
Or maybe we should forget proof and truth and revert to the justice of the lynch mob?0 -
Doping was a more dominant narrative at the Tour than Sky dominance. This is more a general doping thread covering the last two years of nothing happening.
How can you not enjoy the spectacle of so many people being @sshats in public? Also, there's nothing wrong with gasping at the Nairo/Mov double-standard.
edit: Forgot about SkyLimit. It's a pity the discussion was so one-sided. A thinking zoomer would have added much.
SkyLimit doesn't think. That's his problem. He's posted c.100 posts on Velorooms, most of which my 8 year old could have put together in a more cohesive and thoughtful way.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19667676#p19667676]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:The GB Public won't currently accept unsubstantiated claims that their Olympic heroes were dopers.
The baxxards! I would hope and trust that "unsubstantiated claims" are never accepted as evidence in any form.
Or maybe we should forget proof and truth and revert to the justice of the lynch mob?
There is a common theme here. Those who have transgressed themselves lash out at others in an attempt at redemption. Gregory Bauge stripped of his 2011 medals, Vayer involved with Festina, Laurent Jalabert unrepentant doper.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19667676#p19667676]Wallace and Gromit[/url] wrote:The GB Public won't currently accept unsubstantiated claims that their Olympic heroes were dopers.
The baxxards! I would hope and trust that "unsubstantiated claims" are never accepted as evidence in any form.
Or maybe we should forget proof and truth and revert to the justice of the lynch mob?
There is a common theme here. Those who have transgressed themselves lash out at others in an attempt at redemption. Gregory Bauge stripped of his 2011 medals, Vayer involved with Festina, Laurent Jalabert unrepentant doper.
This does annoy me a lot. Especially JaJa who went from sprinter to KOM winner under the EPO era, has been implicated for doping and had to appear before the French courts but yet wont say anything publicly.
I also didn't like the Festina adverts with Virenque in them.0 -
Julien Pinot - Thibaut's brother who coaches him and other FDJ riders - on the Froome topic
http://www.lejdd.fr/Sport/Cyclisme/Julien-Pinot-C-est-alle-trop-loin-avec-Chistopher-Froome-743904?utm_content=buffer0edee&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
'It went too far with Christopher Froome' (in reference to how he was treated and accused of doping)0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19668113#p19668113]Richmond Racer 2[/url] wrote:Julien Pinot - Thibaut's brother who coaches him and other FDJ riders - on the Froome topic
http://www.lejdd.fr/Sport/Cyclisme/Julien-Pinot-C-est-alle-trop-loin-avec-Chistopher-Froome-743904?utm_content=buffer0edee&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
'It went too far with Christopher Froome' (in reference to how he was treated and accused of doping)
Any chance we can sweep this, and similar calm and reasoned analysis, under the carpet for a bit longer - perhaps until there is another great frothing at the collective gaping mouth of the performance cynics, when it will pass unnoticed?
Ta.0 -
An interesting piece.
http://cyclistsinternational.com/reports-of-froome-doping-wrong-in-so-many-ways/0 -
An interesting piece.
http://cyclistsinternational.com/reports-of-froome-doping-wrong-in-so-many-ways/
Sallet. A doctor of philosophy. Hilarious.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19668612#p19668612]Richmond Racer 2[/url] wrote:An interesting piece.
http://cyclistsinternational.com/reports-of-froome-doping-wrong-in-so-many-ways/
Sallet. A doctor of philosophy. Hilarious.
It is, until you remember how many people bought into it and the effect that had on some loons by the road side. France 2 should be ashamed of themselves and should immediately apologise to everyone involved for having a quack as their 'expert'.0 -
Just goes to prove the old adage "There are lies, damn lies and statistics"0
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Just a few things. The general public are pretty much an unsavory bunch so riders being spat at or abused has always been a factor. You can't help drunk angry people from having a pop.
Just a note on Team Sky on their tactics. In the Tour they used Stannard a lot on the flats and in the Mountains they had G doing a big bit of work and Porte did some work and the other dude too. ;-) They rested their climbers on the days when they were not needed in the mountains so they had like a shift pattern keeping one rider with Froome all of the time. It's a tactic I've not seen before but is very clever. Well done to them on this tactic.
As for doping, seems Valverde had the most fan based tweets of the Tour. Valverde being a proven doper so there is no logic in Froome being made out to be the bad guy. I guess it's likely Froome doped but there's no evidence yet.
Also on that note a power meter can be adjusted down so it records less watts so any power data published will be useless.
:-)“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
How is it likely that Froome doped?0
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How is it likely that Froome doped?
He beat other riders = he doped. I think that's how it works.
Or is it
Rides for Sky = he doped
Or is it
Some French quack said he doped = he doped
Or is it
Some winners before were doped = so Froome must have doped
Or is it
Froome was once not this good = he doped
Or is it
Doping is the only narrative some people are interested in, and the scandal is the only thing they're really interested in = he doped
Take your pick.It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0
