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rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

I think it is a useful article, because it shares a very prevalent attitude among the right wing press of attributing the action of one person as "the actions of the left".

Doesn't happen the other way so much.

Probably because there is more behaviour of this type from the lefties to comment on.

Do you think what he did was useful or sensible?

You're right. Posh boys just do it without any political reason.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/4066329.stm

Good whataboutery Brian.

You said that it's lefties that do it, so I'm just giving a bit of counter evidence to your assertion. That's not whataboutery.

You might have noticed that I've been making positive comments about aspects of Thatcher, and I do think that the enduring hatred of her weird, especially from a generation that didn't experience the 70s.

Careful Brian, you'll soon become a hate figure in Cake Stop with statements like that.

Pfft. She actually had ideas which puts her streets ahead of the dross that call themselves conservative these days. Shame about her friendship with Pinochet

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Weird parallel here, you've got people discussing the actual pros and cons of a debate that is being had between labour and the tories on an actual relevant topic (windfall tax on oil companies) and the only tory here is banging on about a thatcher statue #saysitall.

Whose thread is this Rick?

F*** me, are you actually trying to claim you 'own' a thread on a forum 🤣

It’s bit “ Get off my land” sort of thing. These Tory land owners claiming threads now.

surrey_commuter

pblakeney said:

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

i

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Windfall tax is a stupid idea.

Oh you’re all worried about the shortage of oil - let’s go tax them. That’ll help.

Windfall tax relates to the profits being higher than expected due to the increase in oil price though doesn't it? No-one is talking about taxing their normal profit more just taking a chunk of extra money they aren't doing anything to earn.

Eh?

They dig it out of the ground and sell it at market rate.

That’s how it works. They don’t set the price. It’s a competitive market. If there’s evidence of collusion then let’s see it and punish them accordingly.

Higher prices incentives more exploration which leads to more supply, etc etc.

We don’t give them tax breaks when the price is way lower than break even for them, so why should we do it the other way?

It’s frankly outrageous. Where do you draw the line in a free market?

How do we then decide a company is making “too much money”?

Are they gonna come after me because I have a fat margin? Ridiculous.

Anyway, the solution is to wean the economy off fossil fuels which has the added impact of slowing our path down climate Armageddon.

You think it's reasonable for them to get higher than anticipated profits due to a global political crises such as a war?

The Government is also making a windfall of course as the VAT is on a higher figure (although I think in their case they taxed themselves by reducing VAT on fuel didn't they?).

Yeah I do think it’s reasonable.

A) they don’t set the price and B ) it’s a good job they are drilling it as plainly we all need it!

What they’re finding is rarer than ever, hence the high price

The flaw in this argument is that the current price has nothing to do with how hard it is to find or get out of the ground, it is just that there is an international ban on buying from one of the biggest global suppliers. They are literally doing nothing extra to earn the money and this is reflected in the profits - that is why it is a windfall tax. No-one seems to be suggesting increasing tax purely based on the cost of the product, as you say that will reflect various factors in production cost and demand, it is the excess 'unearned' profit people are suggesting should be taxed as I understand it.

It is still supply and demand though.
Supply has been cut while demand remains constant. Prices rise accordingly.

Yup. Don't know that this is an argument against it though.

Simply an explanation as to why the price has risen for little effort.
The counter arguments have been given above. No tax cuts when prices dip.

maybe we could legislate so that they have a set amount of profit they can make each year?

or nationalise them at a price of our chosing

If we had a Labour government then that might make sense. We have a tory government who believe in a free and open market. Make hay while the sun shines, go under if it doesn't.

I would argue that the current Govt is TINO and economically far to the left of Blair.

They have put price caps on domestic fuel and started nationalising the railways so no reason why they would stop there

Agreed.
Their core support though?

I am still convinced that the core support will reject TINO and the whole levelling down message

pblakeney

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

i

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Windfall tax is a stupid idea.

Oh you’re all worried about the shortage of oil - let’s go tax them. That’ll help.

Windfall tax relates to the profits being higher than expected due to the increase in oil price though doesn't it? No-one is talking about taxing their normal profit more just taking a chunk of extra money they aren't doing anything to earn.

Eh?

They dig it out of the ground and sell it at market rate.

That’s how it works. They don’t set the price. It’s a competitive market. If there’s evidence of collusion then let’s see it and punish them accordingly.

Higher prices incentives more exploration which leads to more supply, etc etc.

We don’t give them tax breaks when the price is way lower than break even for them, so why should we do it the other way?

It’s frankly outrageous. Where do you draw the line in a free market?

How do we then decide a company is making “too much money”?

Are they gonna come after me because I have a fat margin? Ridiculous.

Anyway, the solution is to wean the economy off fossil fuels which has the added impact of slowing our path down climate Armageddon.

You think it's reasonable for them to get higher than anticipated profits due to a global political crises such as a war?

The Government is also making a windfall of course as the VAT is on a higher figure (although I think in their case they taxed themselves by reducing VAT on fuel didn't they?).

Yeah I do think it’s reasonable.

A) they don’t set the price and B ) it’s a good job they are drilling it as plainly we all need it!

What they’re finding is rarer than ever, hence the high price

The flaw in this argument is that the current price has nothing to do with how hard it is to find or get out of the ground, it is just that there is an international ban on buying from one of the biggest global suppliers. They are literally doing nothing extra to earn the money and this is reflected in the profits - that is why it is a windfall tax. No-one seems to be suggesting increasing tax purely based on the cost of the product, as you say that will reflect various factors in production cost and demand, it is the excess 'unearned' profit people are suggesting should be taxed as I understand it.

It is still supply and demand though.
Supply has been cut while demand remains constant. Prices rise accordingly.

Yup. Don't know that this is an argument against it though.

Simply an explanation as to why the price has risen for little effort.
The counter arguments have been given above. No tax cuts when prices dip.

maybe we could legislate so that they have a set amount of profit they can make each year?

or nationalise them at a price of our chosing

If we had a Labour government then that might make sense. We have a tory government who believe in a free and open market. Make hay while the sun shines, go under if it doesn't.

I would argue that the current Govt is TINO and economically far to the left of Blair.

They have put price caps on domestic fuel and started nationalising the railways so no reason why they would stop there

Agreed.
Their core support though?

I am still convinced that the core support will reject TINO and the whole levelling down message

You think tory voters will vote for another party? 🤔
Or are you convinced BJ will be thrown aside?

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

I think it is a useful article, because it shares a very prevalent attitude among the right wing press of attributing the action of one person as "the actions of the left".

Doesn't happen the other way so much.

Probably because there is more behaviour of this type from the lefties to comment on.

Do you think what he did was useful or sensible?

You're right. Posh boys just do it without any political reason.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/4066329.stm

Good whataboutery Brian.

You said that it's lefties that do it, so I'm just giving a bit of counter evidence to your assertion. That's not whataboutery.

You might have noticed that I've been making positive comments about aspects of Thatcher, and I do think that the enduring hatred of her weird, especially from a generation that didn't experience the 70s.

Careful Brian, you'll soon become a hate figure in Cake Stop with statements like that.

Pfft. She actually had ideas which puts her streets ahead of the dross that call themselves conservative these days. Shame about her friendship with Pinochet

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Weird parallel here, you've got people discussing the actual pros and cons of a debate that is being had between labour and the tories on an actual relevant topic (windfall tax on oil companies) and the only tory here is banging on about a thatcher statue #saysitall.

Whose thread is this Rick?

F*** me, are you actually trying to claim you 'own' a thread on a forum 🤣

I am the OP as you know, and not obliged in any event to discuss what Rick wants to discuss. Bloody centre lefties thinking they determine the agenda

rjsterry

It's fine. I think we all understand how it works. How far back are you going? I can't remember when I even wrote that.

surrey_commuter

pblakeney said:

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

i

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Windfall tax is a stupid idea.

Oh you’re all worried about the shortage of oil - let’s go tax them. That’ll help.

Windfall tax relates to the profits being higher than expected due to the increase in oil price though doesn't it? No-one is talking about taxing their normal profit more just taking a chunk of extra money they aren't doing anything to earn.

Eh?

They dig it out of the ground and sell it at market rate.

That’s how it works. They don’t set the price. It’s a competitive market. If there’s evidence of collusion then let’s see it and punish them accordingly.

Higher prices incentives more exploration which leads to more supply, etc etc.

We don’t give them tax breaks when the price is way lower than break even for them, so why should we do it the other way?

It’s frankly outrageous. Where do you draw the line in a free market?

How do we then decide a company is making “too much money”?

Are they gonna come after me because I have a fat margin? Ridiculous.

Anyway, the solution is to wean the economy off fossil fuels which has the added impact of slowing our path down climate Armageddon.

You think it's reasonable for them to get higher than anticipated profits due to a global political crises such as a war?

The Government is also making a windfall of course as the VAT is on a higher figure (although I think in their case they taxed themselves by reducing VAT on fuel didn't they?).

Yeah I do think it’s reasonable.

A) they don’t set the price and B ) it’s a good job they are drilling it as plainly we all need it!

What they’re finding is rarer than ever, hence the high price

The flaw in this argument is that the current price has nothing to do with how hard it is to find or get out of the ground, it is just that there is an international ban on buying from one of the biggest global suppliers. They are literally doing nothing extra to earn the money and this is reflected in the profits - that is why it is a windfall tax. No-one seems to be suggesting increasing tax purely based on the cost of the product, as you say that will reflect various factors in production cost and demand, it is the excess 'unearned' profit people are suggesting should be taxed as I understand it.

It is still supply and demand though.
Supply has been cut while demand remains constant. Prices rise accordingly.

Yup. Don't know that this is an argument against it though.

Simply an explanation as to why the price has risen for little effort.
The counter arguments have been given above. No tax cuts when prices dip.

maybe we could legislate so that they have a set amount of profit they can make each year?

or nationalise them at a price of our chosing

If we had a Labour government then that might make sense. We have a tory government who believe in a free and open market. Make hay while the sun shines, go under if it doesn't.

I would argue that the current Govt is TINO and economically far to the left of Blair.

They have put price caps on domestic fuel and started nationalising the railways so no reason why they would stop there

Agreed.
Their core support though?

I am still convinced that the core support will reject TINO and the whole levelling down message

You think tory voters will vote for another party? 🤔
Or are you convinced BJ will be thrown aside?

the latter

Stevo_666

Maybe one for the irony thread. Transport unions planning to cause chaos this summer over job cuts, yet their voluntary redundancy scheme has been inundated with applications:
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/rail-workers-inundate-voluntary-redundancy-scheme-despite/

Hard left union bosses just spoiling for a fight again by the look of things...what a surprise.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

Maybe one for the irony thread. Transport unions planning to cause chaos this summer over job cuts, yet their voluntary redundancy scheme has been inundated with applications:
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/rail-workers-inundate-voluntary-redundancy-scheme-despite/

Hard left union bosses just spoiling for a fight again by the look of things...what a surprise.

They’d have a lot more sympathy if the service they did run wasn’t utter sh!te.

Striking because passenger numbers are substantially less so there isn’t the money to pay them, and still they can’t manage with those volumes.

Moronic.

It’s just a couple days where I won’t be inconvenienced by a f@cking delay or not enough carriages.

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

Maybe one for the irony thread. Transport unions planning to cause chaos this summer over job cuts, yet their voluntary redundancy scheme has been inundated with applications:
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/rail-workers-inundate-voluntary-redundancy-scheme-despite/

Hard left union bosses just spoiling for a fight again by the look of things...what a surprise.

Quite.

But at the same time:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/government-unable-unwilling-stop-slide-towards-1970s-disaster/

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

Maybe one for the irony thread. Transport unions planning to cause chaos this summer over job cuts, yet their voluntary redundancy scheme has been inundated with applications:
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/rail-workers-inundate-voluntary-redundancy-scheme-despite/

Hard left union bosses just spoiling for a fight again by the look of things...what a surprise.

They’d have a lot more sympathy if the service they did run wasn’t utter sh!te.

Striking because passenger numbers are substantially less so there isn’t the money to pay them, and still they can’t manage with those volumes.

Moronic.

It’s just a couple days where I won’t be inconvenienced by a f@cking delay or not enough carriages.

I think a lot of us can dodge any problems by simply WFH, although clearly a lot of people don't have that option. Agree, there's no denying the economics have changed and they have to cut their cloth, but that seems to go straight over their heads (or they simply choose to ignore the reality).

Also moronic as screwing up the service they provide on a regular basis will likely reduce passenger numbers further. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Dorset_Boy

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

Maybe one for the irony thread. Transport unions planning to cause chaos this summer over job cuts, yet their voluntary redundancy scheme has been inundated with applications:
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/rail-workers-inundate-voluntary-redundancy-scheme-despite/

Hard left union bosses just spoiling for a fight again by the look of things...what a surprise.

They’d have a lot more sympathy if the service they did run wasn’t utter sh!te.

Striking because passenger numbers are substantially less so there isn’t the money to pay them, and still they can’t manage with those volumes.

Moronic.

It’s just a couple days where I won’t be inconvenienced by a f@cking delay or not enough carriages.

I think a lot of us can dodge any problems by simply WFH, although clearly a lot of people don't have that option. Agree, there's no denying the economics have changed and they have to cut their cloth, but that seems to go straight over their heads (or they simply choose to ignore the reality).

Also moronic as screwing up the service they provide on a regular basis will likely reduce passenger numbers further. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

RMT - Really mad Trots

Stevo_666

And Shapps idea of stopping them claiming overtime for clearing the mess they have created by striking seems like a sensible response.
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/12/grant-shapps-plans-hit-rail-strikers-pay-packets-ban-claiming/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

kingstongraham

Thought this was the Labour Party thread.

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

Maybe one for the irony thread. Transport unions planning to cause chaos this summer over job cuts, yet their voluntary redundancy scheme has been inundated with applications:
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/rail-workers-inundate-voluntary-redundancy-scheme-despite/

Hard left union bosses just spoiling for a fight again by the look of things...what a surprise.

Quite.

But at the same time:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/government-unable-unwilling-stop-slide-towards-1970s-disaster/

There is a very good case for taking a hard line with the unions. Maggie taught us how important it is...

Stevo_666

Dorset_Boy said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

Maybe one for the irony thread. Transport unions planning to cause chaos this summer over job cuts, yet their voluntary redundancy scheme has been inundated with applications:
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/rail-workers-inundate-voluntary-redundancy-scheme-despite/

Hard left union bosses just spoiling for a fight again by the look of things...what a surprise.

They’d have a lot more sympathy if the service they did run wasn’t utter sh!te.

Striking because passenger numbers are substantially less so there isn’t the money to pay them, and still they can’t manage with those volumes.

Moronic.

It’s just a couple days where I won’t be inconvenienced by a f@cking delay or not enough carriages.

I think a lot of us can dodge any problems by simply WFH, although clearly a lot of people don't have that option. Agree, there's no denying the economics have changed and they have to cut their cloth, but that seems to go straight over their heads (or they simply choose to ignore the reality).

Also moronic as screwing up the service they provide on a regular basis will likely reduce passenger numbers further. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

RMT - Really mad Trots

Hard left dinosaurs. And we all know what happened to the Dinosaurs.

The DLR is a good model for a tube upgrade IMO...that will also annoy the RMT immensely and ultimately remove a lot of their power base.

rjsterry

Machines generally make better train drivers than people. There's an argument that having nobody about at all is not great for passenger safety, but I'm not sure the guy in the cab is best placed to offer that.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

Machines generally make better train drivers than people. There's an argument that having nobody about at all is not great for passenger safety, but I'm not sure the guy in the cab is best placed to offer that.

They could offer people the choice by running the trains without the drivers and see if people are happy to use them during strikes. One of the lines has trains that will work without drivers.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

Maybe one for the irony thread. Transport unions planning to cause chaos this summer over job cuts, yet their voluntary redundancy scheme has been inundated with applications:
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/rail-workers-inundate-voluntary-redundancy-scheme-despite/

Hard left union bosses just spoiling for a fight again by the look of things...what a surprise.

They’d have a lot more sympathy if the service they did run wasn’t utter sh!te.

Striking because passenger numbers are substantially less so there isn’t the money to pay them, and still they can’t manage with those volumes.

Moronic.

It’s just a couple days where I won’t be inconvenienced by a f@cking delay or not enough carriages.

I think a lot of us can dodge any problems by simply WFH, although clearly a lot of people don't have that option. Agree, there's no denying the economics have changed and they have to cut their cloth, but that seems to go straight over their heads (or they simply choose to ignore the reality).

Also moronic as screwing up the service they provide on a regular basis will likely reduce passenger numbers further. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

RMT - Really mad Trots

Hard left dinosaurs. And we all know what happened to the Dinosaurs.

The DLR is a good model for a tube upgrade IMO...that will also annoy the RMT immensely and ultimately remove a lot of their power base.

The Copenhagen metro is entirely driverless and has no turnstiles. It seems to be fine, but a bit unnerving to see no staff whatsoever. I think there are roving ticket checkers and pretty steep fines if caught without having paid.

monkimark

Plus, on the DLR you can sit on the front seat and pretend to be the driver.

rjsterry said:

Machines generally make better train drivers than people. There's an argument that having nobody about at all is not great for passenger safety, but I'm not sure the guy in the cab is best placed to offer that.

TheBigBean

Research tell me 8 lines have partially automated trains with the drivers opening and closing the doors.

TheBigBean

Starmer investigated by standards watchdog over late gift registrations

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61781601

Whilst I think all MPs should be read the gift riot act as part of the swearing in ceremony, Starmer should know better.

kingstongraham

British Kebab Awards?

rick_chasey

FFS just don't take gifts as an MP.

Pross

rick_chasey said:

FFS just don't take gifts as an MP.

What's the incentive to become an MP then?

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

British Kebab Awards?

I'm more forgiving of that. Not declaring his premium football tickets for a team he supports is pretty careless though.

rick_chasey

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

FFS just don't take gifts as an MP.

What's the incentive to become an MP then?

Power trip and confirmation everyone does indeed hate you.

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

Maybe one for the irony thread. Transport unions planning to cause chaos this summer over job cuts, yet their voluntary redundancy scheme has been inundated with applications:
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/rail-workers-inundate-voluntary-redundancy-scheme-despite/

Hard left union bosses just spoiling for a fight again by the look of things...what a surprise.

Quite.

But at the same time:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/government-unable-unwilling-stop-slide-towards-1970s-disaster/

There is a very good case for taking a hard line with the unions. Maggie taught us how important it is...

I think that article's point is that Boris ain't no Maggie... his only metric is to cling onto the PM-ship however he can, and he's as weak as a weak thing, held captive by factions. To play the sort of hand Thatcher did, he needs the respect of enough of the electorate, and he hasn't got that. I suspect the union bosses are aware of that, and are trying to capitalise on his weakness.

rick_chasey

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

Maybe one for the irony thread. Transport unions planning to cause chaos this summer over job cuts, yet their voluntary redundancy scheme has been inundated with applications:
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/rail-workers-inundate-voluntary-redundancy-scheme-despite/

Hard left union bosses just spoiling for a fight again by the look of things...what a surprise.

Quite.

But at the same time:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/06/12/government-unable-unwilling-stop-slide-towards-1970s-disaster/

There is a very good case for taking a hard line with the unions. Maggie taught us how important it is...

I think that article's point is that Boris ain't no Maggie... his only metric is to cling onto the PM-ship however he can, and he's as weak as a weak thing, held captive by factions. To play the sort of hand Thatcher did, he needs the respect of enough of the electorate, and he hasn't got that. I suspect the union bosses are aware of that, and are trying to capitalise on his weakness.

There is a huge shift in the way that we travel and the gov't is burying its head in the sand about it.

I don't have the answer, but there needs to be a rethink about how we do public transport, for a whole host of reasons. Whether it is environmental, working habits post-corona, demographics, urbanisation, etc etc.

Tot take on example, the elizabeth line is looking like public transport for the wrong era - people don't travel like they used to post-Corona, and you can tell. It's empty most of the time.

Jezyboy

Shapps idea of stopping overtime, so that staff dont work overtime, which will presumably mean even more cancelled services, is truly genius.

Stevo_666

Jezyboy said:

Shapps idea of stopping overtime, so that staff dont work overtime, which will presumably mean even more cancelled services, is truly genius.

Might teach the ****ers that it's not a good idea to strike in the first place. Prevention is better than cure...