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From Stevo's link
Stop The War published several articles. One claimed it was wrong to compare Isil with the Nazis, whilst a second compared Isil to the International Brigades who had fought Hitler and Franco’s fascists in Spain.
Jeremy Corbyn knew all of this. And despite that, he arrived at the party and told the assembled gathering: “I’ve been proud to be the chair of the Stop the War coalition, proud to be associated with the Stop The War coalition.
In the 'Paris' thread, Mamba makes the point, a valid one, that EU states should be sharing intel about terrorist suspects. If Corbyn was PM, holding such views, how inclined would anyone be to share their intel with the UK?0 -
ISIS aren't Nazi though really. Doesn't mean they're not bad, nor does it mean Corbyn thinks they're good.
They're a well funded terrorist organisation who are making feeble attempts at state building.
Nazis were a fascist party who took over the (then) 2nd richest nation in the world.
Quite a big difference. Nazis never really did export terrorism either.0 -
Oh, I don't know.Nazis never really did export terrorism either.
Ask Londoners or Coventrians who were around in 1940.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Oh, I don't know.Nazis never really did export terrorism either.
Ask Londoners or Coventrians who were around in 1940.
Without getting bogged down in symantics the principle aim wasn't to terrorise but to reduce industrial capacity and effectiveness....
After all, doubt you'd say the UK were terrorist when they razed Dresden to the ground.
Point stands that there are differences between Nazis and ISIS but that doesn't mean you suddenly like ISIS.0 -
I would actually.After all, doubt you'd say the UK were terrorist when they razed Dresden to the ground.
"Words of Winston Churchill (memo to Chiefs of Staff, 28th March 1945): It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed."The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Wasn't Dresden a cultural and educational centre for Germany as well as historically being a capital for one of the Germanic kingdoms? The whole purpose of the allied bombing was to flatten this cultural centre and thus affect moral. It was plain and simple an act to cause terror in the population to destabilize the region. Is that not terrorism?
Of course being in a war situation that's likely to be against conventions on war, targeting of civilians, now at least but was it the same then?
Of course I do not see the allied forces in WWII as terrorists in.the way ISIS is. I don't even see the WWII German state and Nazi party as quite in the same category. Different times, different wars.0 -
Nuclear weapons used twice on civilian populations in Japan? in a war anything can be justified.
Stop the War, however niave they may be (plus their ill thoughout statements) want to stop this slaughter, even though i dont agree with them, i can support their aims, had we listened to them earlier on, we d not have gone into Iraq/libya and its more than likely the world crisis we are seeing now, wouldnt be happening.0 -
No they don't. Far from being naive or ill-thought out, they have made it quite clear that they want IS to be allowed to go on slaughtering whoever they want - disabled babies, Yazidis, Christians, gays, aid workers, concert goers, whoever they feel like really. I'd ascribe this to an "anything as long as it's over there and we don't have to get involved" mentality if it wasn't for the fact that STW have been pretty consistent in supporting acts of war, as long as they're against the west (or Israel).Stop the War, however niave they may be (plus their ill thoughout statements) want to stop this slaughter0 -
No they don't. Far from being naive or ill-thought out, they have made it quite clear that they want IS to be allowed to go on slaughtering whoever they want - disabled babies, Yazidis, Christians, gays, aid workers, concert goers, whoever they feel like really. I'd ascribe this to an "anything as long as it's over there and we don't have to get involved" mentality if it wasn't for the fact that STW have been pretty consistent in supporting acts of war, as long as they're against the west (or Israel).Stop the War, however niave they may be (plus their ill thoughout statements) want to stop this slaughter
Ok then send in troops, all the bombing in the world isnt going to stop ISiL, after 12months of US bombing they still did all the outrages you mention plus attacked Paris. STW didnt prevent us not helping the Yazidis, a terrible crime, in which we did nothing to prevent or help.
IS may well move to another failed state and carry out their evil deeds in sudan. libya where ever, so lets intervene there and bomb away.
STW seem to be saying that our continued interventions are just making matters worse, indeed probably bought about IS in the first place.
but we operate double standards, ISiL bad, china and saudi good. despite some very horrific policies and public executions for so called crimes.
btw i dont support STW, but i can see their point.0 -
There is certainly a pretty strong logical case against war in any circumstances. The thing is, there's already a war. What we have here is a lose/lose situation, and knowing in advance which is going to be worse is not that easy. To my mind it's a trolley problem
Of course western governments, not least ours, have made very poor choices on intervention: but you can't blame everything on that - from the way some people talk, you'd think that the 9/11 bombers did it to protest against the invasion of Iraq that they knew was going to happen two years later.
As far as STW goes, they're not making a logical argument, except perhaps in their efforts (for example) to equate IS with the anti-fascist International Brigades in the Spanish civil war. Tom Harris (ex Labour minister) described them aptly: "a madcap coalition of trots, Islamists and anti-west fury chimps".0 -
Yes 9/11 does destroy the argument some what, the response re Iraq was blatantly wrong & had more to do with the 1992 war.
your analogy is correct but what we are doing is pulling that lever one way or another and not leaving it in any one place, Rome, fiddles and fire spring to mind.
all we are doing in syria is kicking the can, even the Tories say the bombing is long term and gave a 4year time table, how many will IS and the bombing kill whilst we dither?
what seems to be happening here and on other threads is that the left get blamed for this or that, whilst conveniently forgeting who is in power and that is they who are doing nothing worthwhile, whilst saying the opposite, bit like their climate change polices
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Al-Qaeda started attacking the West because they wanted to provoke a West vs. Islam conflict. Prior to that, the Algerian civil war had left Islamic fundamentalism a weakened and discredited ideology in the eyes of many Muslims. We gave them what we want. Now we're doing it again.0
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Getting back on track, the point Bally was making was that the leader of the opposition until recently chaired (and still publically supports) an organisation whose members produce statements pronouncing ISIS to be some form of freedom fighters. The unelectable in support of the unspeakable?From Stevo's link
Stop The War published several articles. One claimed it was wrong to compare Isil with the Nazis, whilst a second compared Isil to the International Brigades who had fought Hitler and Franco’s fascists in Spain.
Jeremy Corbyn knew all of this. And despite that, he arrived at the party and told the assembled gathering: “I’ve been proud to be the chair of the Stop the War coalition, proud to be associated with the Stop The War coalition.
In the 'Paris' thread, Mamba makes the point, a valid one, that EU states should be sharing intel about terrorist suspects. If Corbyn was PM, holding such views, how inclined would anyone be to share their intel with the UK?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
an organisation whose members produce statements pronouncing ISIS to be some form of freedom fighters.
It seems obviously absurd to consider a group that stand for such a prescriptive ideology as freedom fighters, but until you actually acknowledge that to a large group of people, this is exactly what they are, you've got no chance of moving forwards. One man's terrorist...
The west is hugely culpable for the current mess but not solely responsible. However, imagine you're a law biding citizen in a gulf state with limited education and limited access to unbiased media. There's a sizeable population fitting this description who have been bombed extensively for several decades by various outside forces. Slightly changes your perspective on who's good and who's bad. Isn't it just possible, you could be pretty anti west without necessarily being an extremist if you'd lived through everything going on in the middle east.0 -
I had a look at Stevo's link to see if Dan Hodges provided a link to the original article, but there was none, so I couldn't do any fact-checking. When it says that a STW coalition member wrote to compare ISIS to the International Brigade, that could mean anything. How, specifically, have the two organisations been compared?
As Rick says, there is little point in calling ISIS "Nazis". They aren't. The Nazis were based on the idea of racial purity and supremacy. ISIS is an extreme theocratic movement. So the Daily Mailegraph castigating the STW for not wanting to confuse ISIS with Nazis is just politics.
A quick glance at the STW website and a search using the term "Islamic State" reveals that on the website, they are described as backward, medieval, reactionary and barbaric. There are also articles about how STW favours cutting off their money and arms supply in order to DEFEAT Islamic State. The official position of STW is anti-IS, but opposing them by non-military means. That's very easy to find out for yourself in 2015.0 -
Curious that in the space of a fortnight we've had the Telegraph fined for urging readers in a letter to vote Tory, and two sun fines and corrections on false reporting over Corbyn, one of which must be corrected on the front page.
So far can't see any equivalents on the horizon on the other side of the newspaper spectrum.0 -
Although as I write that I'm reminded of an express front page about English language "dying in school" which has also had to be corrected.0
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I had a look at Stevo's link to see if Dan Hodges provided a link to the original article, but there was none, so I couldn't do any *******. When it says that a STW coalition member wrote to compare ISIS to the International Brigade, that could mean anything. How, specifically, have the two organisations been compared?
As Rick says, there is little point in calling ISIS "Nazis". They aren't. The Nazis were based on the idea of racial purity and supremacy. ISIS is an extreme theocratic movement. So the Daily Mailegraph castigating the STW for not wanting to confuse ISIS with Nazis is just politics.
A quick glance at the STW website and a search using the term "Islamic State" reveals that on the website, they are described as backward, medieval, reactionary and barbaric. There are also articles about how STW favours cutting off their money and arms supply in order to DEFEAT Islamic State. The official position of STW is anti-IS, but opposing them by non-military means. That's very easy to find out for yourself in 2015.
It looks like F A C T - C H E C K I N G is now an obscene word that must be deleted by Bike Radar. Has the website been bought by the Daily Telegraph or something? :?0 -
Merry Christmas from JC...if you are a Labour moderate, that is.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12064987/Jeremy-Corbyn-ruined-Christmas-with-purge-threat-shadow-minister-says.html"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Leader threatens to sack people who openly oppose him headline shocker.Merry Christmas from JC...if you are a Labour moderate, that is.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12064987/Jeremy-Corbyn-ruined-Christmas-with-purge-threat-shadow-minister-says.html
I am surprised by their surprise.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Well yes, and don't forget that Corbyn considers loyalty to the party line very important - so important, in fact, that when he was a backbencher he only ever voted against it a couple of hundred times.
Leader threatens to sack people who openly oppose him headline shocker.Merry Christmas from JC...if you are a Labour moderate, that is.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12064987/Jeremy-Corbyn-ruined-Christmas-with-purge-threat-shadow-minister-says.html
I am surprised by their surprise.0 -
Well yes, and don't forget that Corbyn considers loyalty to the party line very important - so important, in fact, that when he was a backbencher he only ever voted against it a couple of hundred times.
Leader threatens to sack people who openly oppose him headline shocker.Merry Christmas from JC...if you are a Labour moderate, that is.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12064987/Jeremy-Corbyn-ruined-Christmas-with-purge-threat-shadow-minister-says.html
I am surprised by their surprise.
well, yes but Corbyn rumours are he is going to sack members of the shadow cabinet NOT back bench MP's slight difference perhaps?
ALL party leaders like to have cabinets that reflect their own beliefs or at least expect loyalty from those around the table, why the faux shock?
anyway be good to Hillary follow his fathers footsteps
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Seems to be a change from the original Corbyn approach of having a 'broad (ish) church' taking into account different views and debating issues etc.
Although more importantly if this is followed through, the senior echelons of New Old Labour will all be hard line left wingers. Their transformation from mainstream political party to hard left fringe protest party will then be largely complete. I wish JC luck in his purge of the moderates "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
David Cameron will never face the same problem.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11650086/David-Cameron-facing-Cabinet-split-over-MPs-pay.html
Then again, as we all know by now; many politicians talk the talk, but few walk.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
David Cameron will never face the same problem.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11650086/David-Cameron-facing-Cabinet-split-over-MPs-pay.html
Then again, as we all know by now; many politicians talk the talk, but few walk.
so, this is on top of their 11% last year? and extra on pensions too....good work if you can get it.
Meanwhile those who really do need extra money and do support our country get nothing or 1%.....again....and its even beter as the 50% higher tax rate is down to 45% whay hey! good times roll on!
Good news for Steve0 though as it will mean even more people disillusioned with politics and this seems to affect labour supporters more than tory, so time to emigrate PB.0 -
It is under serious consideration.Good news for Steve0 though as it will mean even more people disillusioned with politics and this seems to affect labour supporters more than tory, so time to emigrate PB.
Coincidentally enough, the last time I emigrated was during a Tory second term. Hmmm......The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Out of interest, where are you considering?0
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Paris has been a consideration but having tried a foreign language location before and finding out that I am useless at languages, it is more likely to be Canada, U.S.A, Australia or N.Z.Out of interest, where are you considering?
Purely on a North to South order.
The biggest decider will probably be calling the wife's bluff on being willing to leave the grand children.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I dunno, private sector pay rises are more than that these days, as the results are improving in the current business friendly environment. I assume that's who you refer to when you talk about supporting the country as after all it is us in the private sector who fund the whole public sector?David Cameron will never face the same problem.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11650086/David-Cameron-facing-Cabinet-split-over-MPs-pay.html
Then again, as we all know by now; many politicians talk the talk, but few walk.
so, this is on top of their 11% last year? and extra on pensions too....good work if you can get it.
Meanwhile those who really do need extra money and do support our country get nothing or 1%.....again....and its even beter as the 50% higher tax rate is down to 45% whay hey! good times roll on!
Good news for Steve0 though as it will mean even more people disillusioned with politics and this seems to affect labour supporters more than tory, so time to emigrate PB.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
David Cameron will never face the same problem.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11650086/David-Cameron-facing-Cabinet-split-over-MPs-pay.html
Then again, as we all know by now; many politicians talk the talk, but few walk.
so, this is on top of their 11% last year? and extra on pensions too....good work if you can get it.
Meanwhile those who really do need extra money and do support our country get nothing or 1%.....again....and its even beter as the 50% higher tax rate is down to 45% whay hey! good times roll on!
Good news for Steve0 though as it will mean even more people disillusioned with politics and this seems to affect labour supporters more than tory, so time to emigrate PB.
I dunno, private sector pay rises are more than that these days, as the results are improving in the current business friendly environment. I assume that's who you refer to when you talk about supporting the country as after all it is us in the private sector who fund the whole public sector?
i take it you mean more than 1% ? yes good news that private sector pay rises are in the 3% avg region but i was refering to nurses, teachers, soldiers, police who once again will get nothing or 1% or the ambulance and fire crews who had to deal with the death of my friend in a car accident recently, so yes they support us.
So, Steve0 next time your in a car accident or your kids are seriously ill, it will be public sector workers who you will be relying on, not an accountant or someone in IT.
regardless of your politics, a danger here is that public sector staff will leave to work in private sector, meaning more agency workers, costing public sector even more, look at nhs nursing costs for example?0
