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First thing they need to do is to decide that all they care about is getting into power. They hate Blair because he did not enact their policies yet they hate Boris because he is Tory and ignore his Milibandesque agenda.rick_chasey said:I have been doing a bit of thinking and reading around the future of the left, given the new political alignment across Europe, and I think Blair is pretty close to the mark.
I think Starmer is a 20th Century politician in a 21st Century world. I think that is passable on the modern right as most of your voting base have their best years behind them and think it was better when they weren't decrepit and they understood the world better.
I think the future of the left, if they are to be successful, is to get ahead of the changes technology has brought to our lives, both in work and in private, and work out a vision which brings it all together for more people than just the darwinian winners & losers.
I think with technology and sustainability you have two forces which are going to upend our lives one way or another. There will be a big proportion of the population who will want to resist that in various ways (and logic dictates that will likely be people who are nearer to their grave as the changes will affect less of their life), and a population who will want to be ahead of the changes.
I think that is part of the wider bificurication of politics that you see across the West.
The issues that affect the young are different to what they used to be, and after a lifetime where they were roughly the same, there is a misunderstanding there.
Starmer is not the right man for the job therefore, and if he gets in it is only because this happens to be one of the most incapable governments in British Parliamentary history.
Then they need to scare their potential supporters into actually truning up and voting. you could scare the middle aged blue collar workers with tech and then scare the yoof with climate change.
The reality is that each faction will carry on fighting for their individual hobby horses that 85% of the population don't care about. eg they are never going to scare enough people about Jews to make persecuting them a vote winner.1 -
Given the situation within the Labour and Conservative parties, and that most people are fairly centrist, why are the Lib Dems such a complete and utter failure too?
Rick - in what way are the issues of the young any different to those of previous generations?
I'll grant you the fact it is harder to get on the housing ladder than at any time since before about 1980 due to the high amount needed for a deposit, though interest rates are historically incredibly low as a balance once you manage to get on the ladder. There's also a lot of inherited wealth heading their way over the next 30 years.0 -
and then drive the private energy suppliers out of business by capping the prices below market ratesrick_chasey said:Speaking of a popular labour policy, are we going to end up with a nationalised rail service by default?
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/28/government-to-take-over-southeastern-after-serious-breach-of-franchise
Another franchise fails.0 -
Taking back control from all those foreign owners.surrey_commuter said:
and then drive the private energy suppliers out of business by capping the prices below market ratesrick_chasey said:Speaking of a popular labour policy, are we going to end up with a nationalised rail service by default?
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/28/government-to-take-over-southeastern-after-serious-breach-of-franchise
Another franchise fails.0 -
Rude maybe, but the Tory's have consistently shown themselves to be incompetent and corrupt over the last few years, particularly over Brexit, COVID contracts, planning and the honours system. I know what's worse.Stevo_666 said:
I don't see any crying, just a senior Labour politician being abusive and unprofessional. IMO she has only been topped for Labour crass behaviour in recent times by John Prescott (previous deputy PM) chinning someone who threw an egg at him.Jezyboy said:Meanwhile a load of snowflakes are crying about someone calling them names?
It also demonstrated quite neatly why Labour are screwed. Lefties like Rayner seem to assume that they are morally superior to anyone who votes tory and cannot/do not want to understand why so many did at the last election. I hope she doesn't get sacked as she is nearly as big a liability as Corbyn
Maybe Starmer tolerates her because she says the stuff that he daren't and he can always make her the fall guy if public opinion goes against them?
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In the first instance Labour need to get away from internal in-fighting and focus on being an effective opposition, not even thinking about the next election.surrey_commuter said:
couldn't agree more but for me the problems stem from the parties not having a mass membership so they are driven by the small minded bigotry of circa 100,000 each. This is reinforced by our medieval system of government.skyblueamateur said:The hard left are absolutely off their nut.
Channel 4 news was at a fringe meeting yesterday with an element of them. They were selling derogatory t-shirts about Starmer. You just think grow up.
They oppose everything but stand for nothing sensible. A bit like this current government to be honest.
The standard of politics and politicians is at an absolute low. Everybody, regardless of their political leanings should be concerned with this.
In theory fixing the system of govt would be easy but I have no idea how you remove the parties from the clutches of the extremists.
If the hippies had any sense they would stop gluing themselves to the M25 and join their local tory associations and elect themselves as the local MP.
This government is getting away with murder and no one is holding them to account.0 -
The political media always fall for this pearl clutching.0
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I think Rayner and starmer could give the Tories a good run on the corruption scale to meet their ends. They just have not had the chance to do so. Self interest is always running as the say.elbowloh said:
Rude maybe, but the Tory's have consistently shown themselves to be incompetent and corrupt over the last few years, particularly over Brexit, COVID contracts, planning and the honours system. I know what's worse.Stevo_666 said:
I don't see any crying, just a senior Labour politician being abusive and unprofessional. IMO she has only been topped for Labour crass behaviour in recent times by John Prescott (previous deputy PM) chinning someone who threw an egg at him.Jezyboy said:Meanwhile a load of snowflakes are crying about someone calling them names?
It also demonstrated quite neatly why Labour are screwed. Lefties like Rayner seem to assume that they are morally superior to anyone who votes tory and cannot/do not want to understand why so many did at the last election. I hope she doesn't get sacked as she is nearly as big a liability as Corbyn
Maybe Starmer tolerates her because she says the stuff that he daren't and he can always make her the fall guy if public opinion goes against them?0 -
Bravo!john80 said:
I think Rayner and starmer could give the Tories a good run on the corruption scale to meet their ends. They just have not had the chance to do so. Self interest is always running as the say.elbowloh said:
Rude maybe, but the Tory's have consistently shown themselves to be incompetent and corrupt over the last few years, particularly over Brexit, COVID contracts, planning and the honours system. I know what's worse.Stevo_666 said:
I don't see any crying, just a senior Labour politician being abusive and unprofessional. IMO she has only been topped for Labour crass behaviour in recent times by John Prescott (previous deputy PM) chinning someone who threw an egg at him.Jezyboy said:Meanwhile a load of snowflakes are crying about someone calling them names?
It also demonstrated quite neatly why Labour are screwed. Lefties like Rayner seem to assume that they are morally superior to anyone who votes tory and cannot/do not want to understand why so many did at the last election. I hope she doesn't get sacked as she is nearly as big a liability as Corbyn
Maybe Starmer tolerates her because she says the stuff that he daren't and he can always make her the fall guy if public opinion goes against them?
It's the Minority Report in action.
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So yes, the two things you highlighted are material. I don't think the "history boys" could be written now and be accurate, in the sense that if you were just smart and worked hard you could be on the path to a very comfortable living. If you look at all the stats now, social mobility is a lot lower and younger generations are increasingly reliant on inheritance for success. That causes a lot of political tension.Dorset_Boy said:Given the situation within the Labour and Conservative parties, and that most people are fairly centrist, why are the Lib Dems such a complete and utter failure too?
Rick - in what way are the issues of the young any different to those of previous generations?
I'll grant you the fact it is harder to get on the housing ladder than at any time since before about 1980 due to the high amount needed for a deposit, though interest rates are historically incredibly low as a balance once you manage to get on the ladder. There's also a lot of inherited wealth heading their way over the next 30 years.
That, combined with the cost of homeownership makes growing up just very different. A good proportion of people, especially ironically those who want good paying careers, can't expect to own homes without help from their parents until deep into their 30s.
I think an under reported cost too is the cost of childcare. If housing is so expensive, and the cost of childcare is as it is, what, 2nd highest in the world and requiring an above-average wage to afford it, then the whole dynamics around what your life is about change substantially. That is impacting most people, especially those who cannot ask mum and dad for money.
The inherited wealth that's heading the way over the next 30 years isn't going to people in their 20s and 30s, but in their 50s, 60s and 70s. That is, to use a Dutch phrase, mustard after the meal time.
Every generation has their own apocalypse concern - I suspect your generation it was nuclear annihilation. This generation it is sustainability and global warming and I think that will infiltrate all walks of life. I don't think there is a single sector or behaviour that isn't and won't be somehow impacted by a drive towards sustainability. That has a profound affect on how you think about the world.
I also think the way of working is fundamentally different. Older people may remember a time of working before the internet, smart phones, corporate surveillance, zero hours, all that stuff. That's a big change in the working pattern. If you grow up with that, you see the world differently.0 -
john80 said:
I think Rayner and starmer could give the Tories a good run on the corruption scale to meet their ends. They just have not had the chance to do so. Self interest is always running as the say.
Fuck1ng hell. Incredible take.Ben
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Says more about the author than the subject.john80 said:
I think Rayner and starmer could give the Tories a good run on the corruption scale to meet their ends. They just have not had the chance to do so. Self interest is always running as the say.elbowloh said:
Rude maybe, but the Tory's have consistently shown themselves to be incompetent and corrupt over the last few years, particularly over Brexit, COVID contracts, planning and the honours system. I know what's worse.Stevo_666 said:
I don't see any crying, just a senior Labour politician being abusive and unprofessional. IMO she has only been topped for Labour crass behaviour in recent times by John Prescott (previous deputy PM) chinning someone who threw an egg at him.Jezyboy said:Meanwhile a load of snowflakes are crying about someone calling them names?
It also demonstrated quite neatly why Labour are screwed. Lefties like Rayner seem to assume that they are morally superior to anyone who votes tory and cannot/do not want to understand why so many did at the last election. I hope she doesn't get sacked as she is nearly as big a liability as Corbyn
Maybe Starmer tolerates her because she says the stuff that he daren't and he can always make her the fall guy if public opinion goes against them?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Starmer had 5 years as DPP - was there any evidence of his potential for massive corruption in that role?john80 said:
I think Rayner and starmer could give the Tories a good run on the corruption scale to meet their ends. They just have not had the chance to do so. Self interest is always running as the say.elbowloh said:
Rude maybe, but the Tory's have consistently shown themselves to be incompetent and corrupt over the last few years, particularly over Brexit, COVID contracts, planning and the honours system. I know what's worse.Stevo_666 said:
I don't see any crying, just a senior Labour politician being abusive and unprofessional. IMO she has only been topped for Labour crass behaviour in recent times by John Prescott (previous deputy PM) chinning someone who threw an egg at him.Jezyboy said:Meanwhile a load of snowflakes are crying about someone calling them names?
It also demonstrated quite neatly why Labour are screwed. Lefties like Rayner seem to assume that they are morally superior to anyone who votes tory and cannot/do not want to understand why so many did at the last election. I hope she doesn't get sacked as she is nearly as big a liability as Corbyn
Maybe Starmer tolerates her because she says the stuff that he daren't and he can always make her the fall guy if public opinion goes against them?0 -
I mean what could possibly go wrong if the minimum wage became the current average wage? I'm sure people in skilled trades would be happy earning the same as someone packing boxes in a warehouse whilst paying more for everything they had to buy.rjsterry said:
The idea that £31k represents a minimum standard of living is also somewhat fantastical.rick_chasey said:
£31k but yeah.rjsterry said:
Ah, the performative resignation immediately followed by pious claims that they just couldn't go on... 🥱Dorset_Boy said:
She may have competition following the resignation of the shadow employment secretary over the leadership not backing a £15 ph minimum wage. He was hailed as a hero by the leftie fringe meeting he went to last night, having his name repeatedly chanted!Pross said:
She's the new darling of Corbyn's fans though isn't she? No point her criticising the Tories when it is the likes of her that make Labour too unpalatable as an alternative.Stevo_666 said:Meanwhile, Labour is being true to form...
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/09/26/angela-rayner-faces-calls-apologise-describing-tories-bunch/
Somewhat undermined by having fully supported the lower £10/hr minimum wage just a couple of years ago.
As an aside, isn't £15/hr about £33k a year? Or have I done my sums wrong? That seems a trifle unrealistic.
It's basically the average current pay per hour. So yeah, it's fairy, err, ambitious.1 -
If inflation goes the way some think, £15 per hour in 2024 won't be ridiculous though.
It's difficult to argue that a profitable business should pay someone so little they need additional government support. That's the state giving handouts to businesses.0 -
Plenty of younger people working hard and being smart can and do build up to leading a comfortable living. There are a far wider variety of ways in which they can make that living now than there ever were. It doesn't have to be done in the SE.rick_chasey said:
So yes, the two things you highlighted are material. I don't think the "history boys" could be written now and be accurate, in the sense that if you were just smart and worked hard you could be on the path to a very comfortable living. If you look at all the stats now, social mobility is a lot lower and younger generations are increasingly reliant on inheritance for success. That causes a lot of political tension.Dorset_Boy said:Given the situation within the Labour and Conservative parties, and that most people are fairly centrist, why are the Lib Dems such a complete and utter failure too?
Rick - in what way are the issues of the young any different to those of previous generations?
I'll grant you the fact it is harder to get on the housing ladder than at any time since before about 1980 due to the high amount needed for a deposit, though interest rates are historically incredibly low as a balance once you manage to get on the ladder. There's also a lot of inherited wealth heading their way over the next 30 years.
That, combined with the cost of homeownership makes growing up just very different. A good proportion of people, especially ironically those who want good paying careers, can't expect to own homes without help from their parents until deep into their 30s.
I think an under reported cost too is the cost of childcare. If housing is so expensive, and the cost of childcare is as it is, what, 2nd highest in the world and requiring an above-average wage to afford it, then the whole dynamics around what your life is about change substantially. That is impacting most people, especially those who cannot ask mum and dad for money.
The inherited wealth that's heading the way over the next 30 years isn't going to people in their 20s and 30s, but in their 50s, 60s and 70s. That is, to use a Dutch phrase, mustard after the meal time.
Every generation has their own apocalypse concern - I suspect your generation it was nuclear annihilation. This generation it is sustainability and global warming and I think that will infiltrate all walks of life. I don't think there is a single sector or behaviour that isn't and won't be somehow impacted by a drive towards sustainability. That has a profound affect on how you think about the world.
I also think the way of working is fundamentally different. Older people may remember a time of working before the internet, smart phones, corporate surveillance, zero hours, all that stuff. That's a big change in the working pattern. If you grow up with that, you see the world differently.
It wasn't easy to get on the housing ladder as a graduate in the late 80s - starting salary of £8k pa, £80K+ for a 2 bed flat in SE London, mortgage interest at 18-19% pa. But buying with a friend, making other sacrifices and borrowing from family meant not paying rent. Didn't see any capital growth on the flat though in the next 6 years.
The way of work has changed massively, those in their late 40s upwards have lived through those changes and had to adapt, and learn new skills to cope, rather than growing up with what are now essential basic skills.
I do agree that there will always be topics that feature high on the concerns of different generations. The Nuclear war issue was fading away by then, AIDS was probably the issue along with African famine, hence things like Live Aid.
It has always been difficult starting out in the world as a young adult, but there is a perception that some of the current younger generation are very impatient and expect things much earlier in life than the older generations.
Probably the biggest change is the impact of social media and how intrusive that is. We could get away with doing some really, really stupid things and have no record other than dodgy memories. Now there'll be photos and videos and those can have a much longer term impact.
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Do you really think anyone is suggesting a 68% rise in the cost of living over the next 30 months?!kingstongraham said:If inflation goes the way some think, £15 per hour in 2024 won't be ridiculous though.
It's difficult to argue that a profitable business should pay someone so little they need additional government support. That's the state giving handouts to businesses.0 -
"Plenty" is a meaningless word in this context and hides the fact that it is a lower number than it was.Dorset_Boy said:
Plenty of younger people working hard and being smart can and do build up to leading a comfortable living. There are a far wider variety of ways in which they can make that living now than there ever were. It doesn't have to be done in the SE.rick_chasey said:
So yes, the two things you highlighted are material. I don't think the "history boys" could be written now and be accurate, in the sense that if you were just smart and worked hard you could be on the path to a very comfortable living. If you look at all the stats now, social mobility is a lot lower and younger generations are increasingly reliant on inheritance for success. That causes a lot of political tension.Dorset_Boy said:Given the situation within the Labour and Conservative parties, and that most people are fairly centrist, why are the Lib Dems such a complete and utter failure too?
Rick - in what way are the issues of the young any different to those of previous generations?
I'll grant you the fact it is harder to get on the housing ladder than at any time since before about 1980 due to the high amount needed for a deposit, though interest rates are historically incredibly low as a balance once you manage to get on the ladder. There's also a lot of inherited wealth heading their way over the next 30 years.
That, combined with the cost of homeownership makes growing up just very different. A good proportion of people, especially ironically those who want good paying careers, can't expect to own homes without help from their parents until deep into their 30s.
I think an under reported cost too is the cost of childcare. If housing is so expensive, and the cost of childcare is as it is, what, 2nd highest in the world and requiring an above-average wage to afford it, then the whole dynamics around what your life is about change substantially. That is impacting most people, especially those who cannot ask mum and dad for money.
The inherited wealth that's heading the way over the next 30 years isn't going to people in their 20s and 30s, but in their 50s, 60s and 70s. That is, to use a Dutch phrase, mustard after the meal time.
Every generation has their own apocalypse concern - I suspect your generation it was nuclear annihilation. This generation it is sustainability and global warming and I think that will infiltrate all walks of life. I don't think there is a single sector or behaviour that isn't and won't be somehow impacted by a drive towards sustainability. That has a profound affect on how you think about the world.
I also think the way of working is fundamentally different. Older people may remember a time of working before the internet, smart phones, corporate surveillance, zero hours, all that stuff. That's a big change in the working pattern. If you grow up with that, you see the world differently.
"The average house in March 2021 cost more than 65 times the average UK home in January 1970, but average weekly wages were only 35.8 times higher, according to data from the Office for National Statistics."Dorset_Boy said:
It wasn't easy to get on the housing ladder as a graduate in the late 80s - starting salary of £8k pa, £80K+ for a 2 bed flat in SE London, mortgage interest at 18-19% pa. But buying with a friend, making other sacrifices and borrowing from family meant not paying rent. Didn't see any capital growth on the flat though in the next 6 years.
I don't think anyone is saying it was "easy" in the 80s. But it is objectively far harder now. The fact that you acknowledge it wasn't easy back then, and it is statistically much harder now, should if anything make you more sympathetic.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/05/how-uk-house-prices-have-soared-ahead-average-wages
There is actual data to back up why younger generations have a right to feel "impatient". Is there a good reason for them to wait years longer than previous generations for things like a house? What is it?Dorset_Boy said:
The way of work has changed massively, those in their late 40s upwards have lived through those changes and had to adapt, and learn new skills to cope, rather than growing up with what are now essential basic skills.
I do agree that there will always be topics that feature high on the concerns of different generations. The Nuclear war issue was fading away by then, AIDS was probably the issue along with African famine, hence things like Live Aid.
It has always been difficult starting out in the world as a young adult, but there is a perception that some of the current younger generation are very impatient and expect things much earlier in life than the older generations.Dorset_Boy said:
Probably the biggest change is the impact of social media and how intrusive that is. We could get away with doing some really, really stupid things and have no record other than dodgy memories. Now there'll be photos and videos and those can have a much longer term impact.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
That begs someone to answer this. How does the total hourly rate given minimum wage plus UC compared to a straight £15/hour?kingstongraham said:If inflation goes the way some think, £15 per hour in 2024 won't be ridiculous though.
It's difficult to argue that a profitable business should pay someone so little they need additional government support. That's the state giving handouts to businesses.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
And the key is to stop them getting the chance. Which is the point of this threadjohn80 said:
I think Rayner and starmer could give the Tories a good run on the corruption scale to meet their ends. They just have not had the chance to do so. Self interest is always running as the say.elbowloh said:
Rude maybe, but the Tory's have consistently shown themselves to be incompetent and corrupt over the last few years, particularly over Brexit, COVID contracts, planning and the honours system. I know what's worse.Stevo_666 said:
I don't see any crying, just a senior Labour politician being abusive and unprofessional. IMO she has only been topped for Labour crass behaviour in recent times by John Prescott (previous deputy PM) chinning someone who threw an egg at him.Jezyboy said:Meanwhile a load of snowflakes are crying about someone calling them names?
It also demonstrated quite neatly why Labour are screwed. Lefties like Rayner seem to assume that they are morally superior to anyone who votes tory and cannot/do not want to understand why so many did at the last election. I hope she doesn't get sacked as she is nearly as big a liability as Corbyn
Maybe Starmer tolerates her because she says the stuff that he daren't and he can always make her the fall guy if public opinion goes against them?
Hopefully Rayner will get more chances to mouth off like this."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I would like to see those numbers broken down by region.pangolin said:
"Plenty" is a meaningless word in this context and hides the fact that it is a lower number than it was.Dorset_Boy said:
Plenty of younger people working hard and being smart can and do build up to leading a comfortable living. There are a far wider variety of ways in which they can make that living now than there ever were. It doesn't have to be done in the SE.rick_chasey said:
So yes, the two things you highlighted are material. I don't think the "history boys" could be written now and be accurate, in the sense that if you were just smart and worked hard you could be on the path to a very comfortable living. If you look at all the stats now, social mobility is a lot lower and younger generations are increasingly reliant on inheritance for success. That causes a lot of political tension.Dorset_Boy said:Given the situation within the Labour and Conservative parties, and that most people are fairly centrist, why are the Lib Dems such a complete and utter failure too?
Rick - in what way are the issues of the young any different to those of previous generations?
I'll grant you the fact it is harder to get on the housing ladder than at any time since before about 1980 due to the high amount needed for a deposit, though interest rates are historically incredibly low as a balance once you manage to get on the ladder. There's also a lot of inherited wealth heading their way over the next 30 years.
That, combined with the cost of homeownership makes growing up just very different. A good proportion of people, especially ironically those who want good paying careers, can't expect to own homes without help from their parents until deep into their 30s.
I think an under reported cost too is the cost of childcare. If housing is so expensive, and the cost of childcare is as it is, what, 2nd highest in the world and requiring an above-average wage to afford it, then the whole dynamics around what your life is about change substantially. That is impacting most people, especially those who cannot ask mum and dad for money.
The inherited wealth that's heading the way over the next 30 years isn't going to people in their 20s and 30s, but in their 50s, 60s and 70s. That is, to use a Dutch phrase, mustard after the meal time.
Every generation has their own apocalypse concern - I suspect your generation it was nuclear annihilation. This generation it is sustainability and global warming and I think that will infiltrate all walks of life. I don't think there is a single sector or behaviour that isn't and won't be somehow impacted by a drive towards sustainability. That has a profound affect on how you think about the world.
I also think the way of working is fundamentally different. Older people may remember a time of working before the internet, smart phones, corporate surveillance, zero hours, all that stuff. That's a big change in the working pattern. If you grow up with that, you see the world differently.
"The average house in March 2021 cost more than 65 times the average UK home in January 1970, but average weekly wages were only 35.8 times higher, according to data from the Office for National Statistics."Dorset_Boy said:
It wasn't easy to get on the housing ladder as a graduate in the late 80s - starting salary of £8k pa, £80K+ for a 2 bed flat in SE London, mortgage interest at 18-19% pa. But buying with a friend, making other sacrifices and borrowing from family meant not paying rent. Didn't see any capital growth on the flat though in the next 6 years.
I don't think anyone is saying it was "easy" in the 80s. But it is objectively far harder now. The fact that you acknowledge it wasn't easy back then, and it is statistically much harder now, should if anything make you more sympathetic.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/05/how-uk-house-prices-have-soared-ahead-average-wages
There is actual data to back up why younger generations have a right to feel "impatient". Is there a good reason for them to wait years longer than previous generations for things like a house? What is it?Dorset_Boy said:
The way of work has changed massively, those in their late 40s upwards have lived through those changes and had to adapt, and learn new skills to cope, rather than growing up with what are now essential basic skills.
I do agree that there will always be topics that feature high on the concerns of different generations. The Nuclear war issue was fading away by then, AIDS was probably the issue along with African famine, hence things like Live Aid.
It has always been difficult starting out in the world as a young adult, but there is a perception that some of the current younger generation are very impatient and expect things much earlier in life than the older generations.Dorset_Boy said:
Probably the biggest change is the impact of social media and how intrusive that is. We could get away with doing some really, really stupid things and have no record other than dodgy memories. Now there'll be photos and videos and those can have a much longer term impact.0 -
@pangolin London prices distort the overall house price situation and I'd be interested to see the figures excluding London over the past 35 years. Best I've found to illustrate is:
It would also be interesting to see the monthly cost of property purchase compared relative to earnings, which would take into account the interest rate impacts. Comparing the absolute values is only part of the whole picture.
Getting the initial deposit together has always been the biggest challenge to getting on the housing ladder though.
And in no way am I suggesting it isn't tough for the younger generations, or that I'm not sympathetic .0 -
Taking the example of the care sector (only as I hear a bit about it) there simply isn't the money coming in from social services to cover more than very basic provision even at the current minimum wage. The directors of smaller companies providing these services are making a profit but it certainly isn't huge (I suspect my wife's boss is taking the equivalent of a £50-60k salary at most which isn't much when you can be subjected to years of police investigation if someone in your care dies). Sure, there are companies making huge profits whilst employing staff at minimum wage but many others would just go out of business.kingstongraham said:If inflation goes the way some think, £15 per hour in 2024 won't be ridiculous though.
It's difficult to argue that a profitable business should pay someone so little they need additional government support. That's the state giving handouts to businesses.0 -
So the statistics say it was materially easier in the 80s than it was now. You can say otherwise if you want, I'm sure it was very tough for you, but as the charts point out otherwise, it is a different level.Dorset_Boy said:
Plenty of younger people working hard and being smart can and do build up to leading a comfortable living. There are a far wider variety of ways in which they can make that living now than there ever were. It doesn't have to be done in the SE.rick_chasey said:
So yes, the two things you highlighted are material. I don't think the "history boys" could be written now and be accurate, in the sense that if you were just smart and worked hard you could be on the path to a very comfortable living. If you look at all the stats now, social mobility is a lot lower and younger generations are increasingly reliant on inheritance for success. That causes a lot of political tension.Dorset_Boy said:Given the situation within the Labour and Conservative parties, and that most people are fairly centrist, why are the Lib Dems such a complete and utter failure too?
Rick - in what way are the issues of the young any different to those of previous generations?
I'll grant you the fact it is harder to get on the housing ladder than at any time since before about 1980 due to the high amount needed for a deposit, though interest rates are historically incredibly low as a balance once you manage to get on the ladder. There's also a lot of inherited wealth heading their way over the next 30 years.
That, combined with the cost of homeownership makes growing up just very different. A good proportion of people, especially ironically those who want good paying careers, can't expect to own homes without help from their parents until deep into their 30s.
I think an under reported cost too is the cost of childcare. If housing is so expensive, and the cost of childcare is as it is, what, 2nd highest in the world and requiring an above-average wage to afford it, then the whole dynamics around what your life is about change substantially. That is impacting most people, especially those who cannot ask mum and dad for money.
The inherited wealth that's heading the way over the next 30 years isn't going to people in their 20s and 30s, but in their 50s, 60s and 70s. That is, to use a Dutch phrase, mustard after the meal time.
Every generation has their own apocalypse concern - I suspect your generation it was nuclear annihilation. This generation it is sustainability and global warming and I think that will infiltrate all walks of life. I don't think there is a single sector or behaviour that isn't and won't be somehow impacted by a drive towards sustainability. That has a profound affect on how you think about the world.
I also think the way of working is fundamentally different. Older people may remember a time of working before the internet, smart phones, corporate surveillance, zero hours, all that stuff. That's a big change in the working pattern. If you grow up with that, you see the world differently.
It wasn't easy to get on the housing ladder as a graduate in the late 80s - starting salary of £8k pa, £80K+ for a 2 bed flat in SE London, mortgage interest at 18-19% pa. But buying with a friend, making other sacrifices and borrowing from family meant not paying rent. Didn't see any capital growth on the flat though in the next 6 years.
The way of work has changed massively, those in their late 40s upwards have lived through those changes and had to adapt, and learn new skills to cope, rather than growing up with what are now essential basic skills.
I do agree that there will always be topics that feature high on the concerns of different generations. The Nuclear war issue was fading away by then, AIDS was probably the issue along with African famine, hence things like Live Aid.
It has always been difficult starting out in the world as a young adult, but there is a perception that some of the current younger generation are very impatient and expect things much earlier in life than the older generations.
Probably the biggest change is the impact of social media and how intrusive that is. We could get away with doing some really, really stupid things and have no record other than dodgy memories. Now there'll be photos and videos and those can have a much longer term impact.
The chat about "patience" misses the actual facts behind what is going on. The young do have to wait longer for things than previous generations have had to wait. Things like, earning enough money after costs of living to bring up children, buying houses etc.
There are charts that show all of this. Average age of first home ownership has been growing since the 80s. Average cost of home versus wages has spiralled higher and higher - they cost proportionally substantially more. The cost of childcare is proportionally much more than it used to be.
You can discount it because you feel you hard hardships, but that is the reality.
You discount the social mobility challengesPlenty of younger people working hard and being smart can and do build up to leading a comfortable living.but the evidence is that it is materially more difficult than it used to be, and the wealth of your parents is much more important than it used to be.
You can see why that is frustrating for people. Being smart and hard working is often not enough any more.
We can do a four yorkshireman bit if you want, but the actual facts, rather than what you feel, suggest that things *are different* now than they used to be for young people.0 -
I would think London wages could also distort too.
Given in some areas will have had well paying coal mining replaced by min wage distribution centres, it seems odd to only focus on one line...
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Found a chart for cities - you can edit it if you wantsurrey_commuter said:
I would like to see those numbers broken down by region.pangolin said:
"Plenty" is a meaningless word in this context and hides the fact that it is a lower number than it was.Dorset_Boy said:
Plenty of younger people working hard and being smart can and do build up to leading a comfortable living. There are a far wider variety of ways in which they can make that living now than there ever were. It doesn't have to be done in the SE.rick_chasey said:
So yes, the two things you highlighted are material. I don't think the "history boys" could be written now and be accurate, in the sense that if you were just smart and worked hard you could be on the path to a very comfortable living. If you look at all the stats now, social mobility is a lot lower and younger generations are increasingly reliant on inheritance for success. That causes a lot of political tension.Dorset_Boy said:Given the situation within the Labour and Conservative parties, and that most people are fairly centrist, why are the Lib Dems such a complete and utter failure too?
Rick - in what way are the issues of the young any different to those of previous generations?
I'll grant you the fact it is harder to get on the housing ladder than at any time since before about 1980 due to the high amount needed for a deposit, though interest rates are historically incredibly low as a balance once you manage to get on the ladder. There's also a lot of inherited wealth heading their way over the next 30 years.
That, combined with the cost of homeownership makes growing up just very different. A good proportion of people, especially ironically those who want good paying careers, can't expect to own homes without help from their parents until deep into their 30s.
I think an under reported cost too is the cost of childcare. If housing is so expensive, and the cost of childcare is as it is, what, 2nd highest in the world and requiring an above-average wage to afford it, then the whole dynamics around what your life is about change substantially. That is impacting most people, especially those who cannot ask mum and dad for money.
The inherited wealth that's heading the way over the next 30 years isn't going to people in their 20s and 30s, but in their 50s, 60s and 70s. That is, to use a Dutch phrase, mustard after the meal time.
Every generation has their own apocalypse concern - I suspect your generation it was nuclear annihilation. This generation it is sustainability and global warming and I think that will infiltrate all walks of life. I don't think there is a single sector or behaviour that isn't and won't be somehow impacted by a drive towards sustainability. That has a profound affect on how you think about the world.
I also think the way of working is fundamentally different. Older people may remember a time of working before the internet, smart phones, corporate surveillance, zero hours, all that stuff. That's a big change in the working pattern. If you grow up with that, you see the world differently.
"The average house in March 2021 cost more than 65 times the average UK home in January 1970, but average weekly wages were only 35.8 times higher, according to data from the Office for National Statistics."Dorset_Boy said:
It wasn't easy to get on the housing ladder as a graduate in the late 80s - starting salary of £8k pa, £80K+ for a 2 bed flat in SE London, mortgage interest at 18-19% pa. But buying with a friend, making other sacrifices and borrowing from family meant not paying rent. Didn't see any capital growth on the flat though in the next 6 years.
I don't think anyone is saying it was "easy" in the 80s. But it is objectively far harder now. The fact that you acknowledge it wasn't easy back then, and it is statistically much harder now, should if anything make you more sympathetic.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/05/how-uk-house-prices-have-soared-ahead-average-wages
There is actual data to back up why younger generations have a right to feel "impatient". Is there a good reason for them to wait years longer than previous generations for things like a house? What is it?Dorset_Boy said:
The way of work has changed massively, those in their late 40s upwards have lived through those changes and had to adapt, and learn new skills to cope, rather than growing up with what are now essential basic skills.
I do agree that there will always be topics that feature high on the concerns of different generations. The Nuclear war issue was fading away by then, AIDS was probably the issue along with African famine, hence things like Live Aid.
It has always been difficult starting out in the world as a young adult, but there is a perception that some of the current younger generation are very impatient and expect things much earlier in life than the older generations.Dorset_Boy said:
Probably the biggest change is the impact of social media and how intrusive that is. We could get away with doing some really, really stupid things and have no record other than dodgy memories. Now there'll be photos and videos and those can have a much longer term impact.
https://www.hometrack.com/uk/insight/uk-house-price-index/
London isn't an outlier. It's actually 2nd after Bristol for growth since 2000.
You can change it to regions too, Greater London is the highest region but it's not exactly an anomaly.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Difficult isn't it?Pross said:
Taking the example of the care sector (only as I hear a bit about it) there simply isn't the money coming in from social services to cover more than very basic provision even at the current minimum wage. The directors of smaller companies providing these services are making a profit but it certainly isn't huge (I suspect my wife's boss is taking the equivalent of a £50-60k salary at most which isn't much when you can be subjected to years of police investigation if someone in your care dies). Sure, there are companies making huge profits whilst employing staff at minimum wage but many others would just go out of business.kingstongraham said:If inflation goes the way some think, £15 per hour in 2024 won't be ridiculous though.
It's difficult to argue that a profitable business should pay someone so little they need additional government support. That's the state giving handouts to businesses.0 -
Asking for a friend - why are debt servicing costs not a factor for individuals buying houses.rick_chasey said:
So the statistics say it was materially easier in the 80s than it was now. You can say otherwise if you want, I'm sure it was very tough for you, but as the charts point out otherwise, it is a different level.Dorset_Boy said:
Plenty of younger people working hard and being smart can and do build up to leading a comfortable living. There are a far wider variety of ways in which they can make that living now than there ever were. It doesn't have to be done in the SE.rick_chasey said:
So yes, the two things you highlighted are material. I don't think the "history boys" could be written now and be accurate, in the sense that if you were just smart and worked hard you could be on the path to a very comfortable living. If you look at all the stats now, social mobility is a lot lower and younger generations are increasingly reliant on inheritance for success. That causes a lot of political tension.Dorset_Boy said:Given the situation within the Labour and Conservative parties, and that most people are fairly centrist, why are the Lib Dems such a complete and utter failure too?
Rick - in what way are the issues of the young any different to those of previous generations?
I'll grant you the fact it is harder to get on the housing ladder than at any time since before about 1980 due to the high amount needed for a deposit, though interest rates are historically incredibly low as a balance once you manage to get on the ladder. There's also a lot of inherited wealth heading their way over the next 30 years.
That, combined with the cost of homeownership makes growing up just very different. A good proportion of people, especially ironically those who want good paying careers, can't expect to own homes without help from their parents until deep into their 30s.
I think an under reported cost too is the cost of childcare. If housing is so expensive, and the cost of childcare is as it is, what, 2nd highest in the world and requiring an above-average wage to afford it, then the whole dynamics around what your life is about change substantially. That is impacting most people, especially those who cannot ask mum and dad for money.
The inherited wealth that's heading the way over the next 30 years isn't going to people in their 20s and 30s, but in their 50s, 60s and 70s. That is, to use a Dutch phrase, mustard after the meal time.
Every generation has their own apocalypse concern - I suspect your generation it was nuclear annihilation. This generation it is sustainability and global warming and I think that will infiltrate all walks of life. I don't think there is a single sector or behaviour that isn't and won't be somehow impacted by a drive towards sustainability. That has a profound affect on how you think about the world.
I also think the way of working is fundamentally different. Older people may remember a time of working before the internet, smart phones, corporate surveillance, zero hours, all that stuff. That's a big change in the working pattern. If you grow up with that, you see the world differently.
It wasn't easy to get on the housing ladder as a graduate in the late 80s - starting salary of £8k pa, £80K+ for a 2 bed flat in SE London, mortgage interest at 18-19% pa. But buying with a friend, making other sacrifices and borrowing from family meant not paying rent. Didn't see any capital growth on the flat though in the next 6 years.
The way of work has changed massively, those in their late 40s upwards have lived through those changes and had to adapt, and learn new skills to cope, rather than growing up with what are now essential basic skills.
I do agree that there will always be topics that feature high on the concerns of different generations. The Nuclear war issue was fading away by then, AIDS was probably the issue along with African famine, hence things like Live Aid.
It has always been difficult starting out in the world as a young adult, but there is a perception that some of the current younger generation are very impatient and expect things much earlier in life than the older generations.
Probably the biggest change is the impact of social media and how intrusive that is. We could get away with doing some really, really stupid things and have no record other than dodgy memories. Now there'll be photos and videos and those can have a much longer term impact.
The chat about "patience" misses the actual facts behind what is going on. The young do have to wait longer for things than previous generations have had to wait. Things like, earning enough money after costs of living to bring up children, buying houses etc.
There are charts that show all of this. Average age of first home ownership has been growing since the 80s. Average cost of home versus wages has spiralled higher and higher - they cost proportionally substantially more. The cost of childcare is proportionally much more than it used to be.
You can discount it because you feel you hard hardships, but that is the reality.
You discount the social mobility challengesPlenty of younger people working hard and being smart can and do build up to leading a comfortable living.but the evidence is that it is materially more difficult than it used to be, and the wealth of your parents is much more important than it used to be.
You can see why that is frustrating for people. Being smart and hard working is often not enough any more.
We can do a four yorkshireman bit if you want, but the actual facts, rather than what you feel, suggest that things *are different* now than they used to be for young people.
When John was 24 he had probably been working and accumulating assets for 3 years whereas his modern day counterpart will have been swanning around accumulating debts so that would account for 6 years difference in buying houses.
Do we need to ask him how many phones he rented and how much avocado on artisan sourdough toast he washed down with skinny mocha oatmilk chai latte?0 -
The bigger picture needs to be looked at. To use the above example the miner's wife would be at home raising the children. Less income, but less outgoing.Jezyboy said:I would think London wages could also distort too.
Given in some areas will have had well paying coal mining replaced by min wage distribution centres, it seems odd to only focus on one line...
He gets a lower paid job, she has to work, they have to pay childcare and it's a downward spiral. Race to the bottom for cost efficiency is taking it's toll, and that's before considering quality of life.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0