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The New Old Labour reaction to the budget surplus was just farcical. First they thought we'll try to look responsible and agree to it. Then they realised they had to look anti-austerity for their supporter and so opposed a piece of basic financial common sense, that countries need to live within their means. But of course it's fine for the most of the people who want this because they are generally not the ones who have to pay for it in the end :roll:
Corbyn then makes it even worse by saying the McDonnell needs to defend the position. Amateurs.
Given that it was a labour policy which the Tories originally opposed then suddenly came around to it when they realised they could use it for political gain I'd say it is ass hattery of the highest order and will be given as much priority as Cameron's pledge to reduce immigration by 10, 000 (Fail) and Osbournes to reduce the deficit (Fail)
???? The deficit has been reduced.0 -
all very well bring the deficit down (even if you believe his figures) when the country and people lives are being ruined.
Might be better to call this thread join the labour party to save the NHS ?
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/15/two-thirds-hospitals-substandard-care-care-quality-commission
What ever the reasons for this, it has happened under Camerons watch, waiting lists are also up, new cancer drugs are down, GP resignations up! skilled clinitions moving abroad... UP !
so my mate who is 52yo never claimed a benefit in his life, is now unemployed, his family are claiming housing benefit, he is claim disability benefit all because he cannot get the shoulder op he needs to carryon his logging business, now has a date in january.
the woman who has 12 kids, moved out of her council house into the private rented sector in lancs, now claiming far more in HB (as her rent is more)
This is the real shambles of camerons britain, he is in power, as i ve said before Corbyn isnt, Labour can mess up, make u turns, get their sums wrong and it makes zero difference to any of us BUT the tories are messing up on a daily basis.
what a crying shame that right now a brilliant RAF based sea rescue service that the UK should be proud of, is now a private service, run by the yanks, short sighted stupidity.0 -
The New Old Labour reaction to the budget surplus was just farcical. First they thought we'll try to look responsible and agree to it. Then they realised they had to look anti-austerity for their supporter and so opposed a piece of basic financial common sense, that countries need to live within their means. But of course it's fine for the most of the people who want this because they are generally not the ones who have to pay for it in the end :roll:
Corbyn then makes it even worse by saying the McDonnell needs to defend the position. Amateurs.
Given that it was a labour policy which the Tories originally opposed then suddenly came around to it when they realised they could use it for political gain I'd say it is ass hattery of the highest order and will be given as much priority as Cameron's pledge to reduce immigration by 10, 000 (Fail) and Osbournes to reduce the deficit (Fail)
???? The deficit has been reduced.
I confess I couldnt be arsed to look up what he said he would do in 2010, eliminate it or cut it in half stick in my mind but I'm not enough into this...can we call it a conversation?...to care. Happy to own my dissallusion thoughWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
I think a times columnist who I saw as a talking head sumerisrd Corbyn's performance at PMQs: the style is one that will please his supporters, but it gives just as much opportunity for Cameron to please his supporters so it doesn't achieve much.
When you are in the majority as Labour are, that's not ideal.
As mentioned from the start, Labour need to convert. As predicted, Corbyn isn't showing any ability to do that.0 -
Unemployment at a 7 year low around 5.4%, wage growth a healthy 3%, but inflation around zero and economic growth rates better than most of mainland Europe. They're really messing up :roll:all very well bring the deficit down (even if you believe his figures) when the country and people lives are being ruined.
Might be better to call this thread join the labour party to save the NHS ?
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/15/two-thirds-hospitals-substandard-care-care-quality-commission
What ever the reasons for this, it has happened under Camerons watch, waiting lists are also up, new cancer drugs are down, GP resignations up! skilled clinitions moving abroad... UP !
so my mate who is 52yo never claimed a benefit in his life, is now unemployed, his family are claiming housing benefit, he is claim disability benefit all because he cannot get the shoulder op he needs to carryon his logging business, now has a date in january.
the woman who has 12 kids, moved out of her council house into the private rented sector in lancs, now claiming far more in HB (as her rent is more)
This is the real shambles of camerons britain, he is in power, as i ve said before Corbyn isnt, Labour can mess up, make u turns, get their sums wrong and it makes zero difference to any of us BUT the tories are messing up on a daily basis.
what a crying shame that right now a brilliant RAF based sea rescue service that the UK should be proud of, is now a private service, run by the yanks, short sighted stupidity.
Sorry but picking anecdotal evidence form a mate doesn't cut it. (PS: if I was in a physical business I'd have insurance cover for injury and/or private medical). And you think the woman with 12 kids would be claiming less if Corbyn was in power?
I could quote examples that go the other way. "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
And never will IMO. Hence Corbyn's Labour is destined to fail, the question is whether he makes it to the next election - which I hope he will do then we can give people the 'real choice' that so many on the far left have been clamouring for.As mentioned from the start, Labour need to convert. As predicted, Corbyn isn't showing any ability to do that.
I can see the Lib Dems gaining from this as well."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
all very well bring the deficit down (even if you believe his figures) when the country and people lives are being ruined.
Might be better to call this thread join the labour party to save the NHS ?
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/15/two-thirds-hospitals-substandard-care-care-quality-commission
This is the real shambles of camerons britain, he is in power, as i ve said before Corbyn isnt, Labour can mess up, make u turns, get their sums wrong and it makes zero difference to any of us BUT the tories are messing up on a daily basis.
what a crying shame that right now a brilliant RAF based sea rescue service that the UK should be proud of, is now a private service, run by the yanks, short sighted stupidity.
Unemployment at a 7 year low around 5.4%, wage growth a healthy 3%, but inflation around zero and economic growth rates better than most of mainland Europe. They're really messing up :roll:
Sorry but picking anecdotal evidence form a mate doesn't cut it. (PS: if I was in a physical business I'd have insurance cover for injury and/or private medical). And you think the woman with 12 kids would be claiming less if Corbyn was in power? I could quote examples that go the other way.
Your figures mask that outside of the SE the economy isnt doing so well as you make out and i doubt they d cut much ice in Redcar either.
So, you ve answered the easy bits, now the NHS and Air sea resue - if things are so great, why is it these 2 services are failing or being sold off (in the case of the ASR, as there isnt enough money to upgrade the helicoptors?)
As for my mate, long term injury (that has got progressively worse with age) not covered under his private med insurance - pre existing - but his situation of people having to stop work because they cannot get treatment, isnt unusual and is getting worse with longer waiting lists, esp for non life saving surgery.
but nice to see you show the caring side of conservatism
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You cant argue with the facts in the economy, pay and inflation. Al this austerity is not exactly having the effect that some people would like to make out. I know that makes uncomfortable reading for people like you. The figures are for the whole country, so show me some evidence to support your claims.
No idea about air sea rescue but its another isolated issue that maybe his happens to suit your agenda. That and several million other things we should be spending other peoples money on...
If Corbyn gets in, we put all this at risk. Fortunately there's naff all chance of that happening and only your caveat on the bet about him making it to the next GE will stop you from owing me £50 plus beer. If you really think you're right, make it the full £100 and get rid of the wimp out caveat
Anyone else care to be against me on the outcome of the next general election? 
Not a case of whether I care about your mate. I've never met him. I have sympathy for his situation but common sense says cover your obvious risks. If I fall ill and cant work I am covered, I would never expect the state to pick up.the pieces even though I have contributed more than enough to cover that sort of eventuality.
Latest in the press is Labour MPs saying Corbyn would be gone tomorrow if Labour MPs had their way. So the tories, majority of the public at large and the Labour party think he's a disaster. So what do you reckon we all know that you don't? "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
You cant argue with the facts in the economy, pay and inflation. Al this austerity is not exactly having the effect that some people would like to make out. I know that makes uncomfortable reading for people like you. The figures are for the whole country, so show me some evidence to support your claims.
You make a lot of chat about the economy, pay, inflation etc.
Re the economy, it's fair to say that employment has significant improved over the past 2 years. There' always a bit of king canute about post recession employment rebounds since, well, they always do rebound, and they always do it around the level of labour force flexibility, which changes much more slowly than over a political term.
The economy is certainly growing, no question. However, the question is why?
In short, it's for 2 reasons, the 2nd being the bigger.
1st - migration. More people earning the average wage in your country increases the GDP of a nation. That's fairly simple.
2nd - more people are working more hours.
Unfortunately, the Tories have been fundamentally unable to even nudge the UK's productivity rates, which took a dip post crash and haven't moved since.
http://www.columbiathreadneedle.co.uk/media/9391148/en_the_productivity_puzzle.pdf
It's a puzzle that every economist is looking at.
Now, you could argue that that's Canute too. However, I'd suggest Tories are too laissez faire around investment, and are too quick to cuddle up to short termist business. Even the Democrats in the US have at least noticed that quarterly capitalism isn't all that good for long term productivity and investment.
That tallies closest with the bog standard school book 2+2=4 economic theory.
Not saying Corbyn would be any better, he wouldn't, but the idea that the Tories are managing the economy very well isn't quite right either. Recoveries come whatever, but when and how fast they come is what a gov't can effect. That this has been a protracted, slow, recovery which has been fuelled by longer hours by everyone isn't a great track record. It's faster than Europe, sure, but then Europe is politically hamstrung. The UK hasn't had that excuse.0 -
Having problems finding something to back up your claim? I wonder why?
Don't remember that. Link?The New Old Labour reaction to the budget surplus was just farcical. First they thought we'll try to look responsible and agree to it. Then they realised they had to look anti-austerity for their supporter and so opposed a piece of basic financial common sense, that countries need to live within their means. But of course it's fine for the most of the people who want this because they are generally not the ones who have to pay for it in the end :roll:
Corbyn then makes it even worse by saying the McDonnell needs to defend the position. Amateurs.
Given that it was a labour policy which the Tories originally opposed then suddenly came around to it when they realised they could use it for political gain I'd say it is ass hattery of the highest order and will be given as much priority as Cameron's pledge to reduce immigration by 10, 000 (Fail) and Osbournes to reduce the deficit (Fail)
If it was Labour policy why are they now opposing it? "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Rick, one more point to add to your post is that the % of earnings that British people have been putting away as savings has fallen steadily since the recession to some of the lowest rates in Europe, so the higher levels of economic growth in Britain could simply be a case of British people burning through their savings and taking on increasingly large debts.0
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No idea about air sea rescue but its another isolated issue that maybe his happens to suit your agenda. That and several million other things we should be spending other peoples money on...
If Corbyn gets in, we put all this at risk. Fortunately there's naff all chance of that happening and only your caveat on the bet about him making it to the next GE will stop you from owing me £50 plus beer. If you really think you're right, make it the full £100 and get rid of the wimp out caveat Anyone else care to be against me on the outcome of the next general election?
Not a case of whether I care about your mate. I've never met him. I have sympathy for his situation but common sense says cover your obvious risks. If I fall ill and cant work I am covered, I would never expect the state to pick up.the pieces even though I have contributed more than enough to cover that sort of eventuality.
i dont think an emergency service is an isolated issue, this shows that despite your figures all is not as rosy as you think, nor is it rosy in Redcar.
mmmm owe you £50 ??? so you lied, the bet was originally, to a charity of our choice, mine was st lukes hospice, yours was ... the Stevo xmas fund.
If you read what i wrote, the shoulder injury was a pre existing condition, so as you should know would not be covered under insurance, obviously the NHS isnt in as good a health as you bang on about either.0 -
Having problems finding something to back up your claim? I wonder why?
Don't remember that. Link?The New Old Labour reaction to the budget surplus was just farcical. First they thought we'll try to look responsible and agree to it. Then they realised they had to look anti-austerity for their supporter and so opposed a piece of basic financial common sense, that countries need to live within their means. But of course it's fine for the most of the people who want this because they are generally not the ones who have to pay for it in the end :roll:
Corbyn then makes it even worse by saying the McDonnell needs to defend the position. Amateurs.
Given that it was a labour policy which the Tories originally opposed then suddenly came around to it when they realised they could use it for political gain I'd say it is ass hattery of the highest order and will be given as much priority as Cameron's pledge to reduce immigration by 10, 000 (Fail) and Osbournes to reduce the deficit (Fail)
If it was Labour policy why are they now opposing it?
Not even looking, I read it so often that I have to conclude that you are willfully not reading articles about it...
As I said to someone up thread, I'm happy to own my dissallusion. If I wasnt ill I wouldnt be reading this. It's one of the most depressing threads on BR - and we had a 50 page thread about the moon landings being faked...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Forgot it was a charity thing. Didn't forget you wimped out on proper bet but clearly you can pay the money direct to yiur charity and show me the evidenceNo idea about air sea rescue but its another isolated issue that maybe his happens to suit your agenda. That and several million other things we should be spending other peoples money on...
If Corbyn gets in, we put all this at risk. Fortunately there's naff all chance of that happening and only your caveat on the bet about him making it to the next GE will stop you from owing me £50 plus beer. If you really think you're right, make it the full £100 and get rid of the wimp out caveat Anyone else care to be against me on the outcome of the next general election?
Not a case of whether I care about your mate. I've never met him. I have sympathy for his situation but common sense says cover your obvious risks. If I fall ill and cant work I am covered, I would never expect the state to pick up.the pieces even though I have contributed more than enough to cover that sort of eventuality.
i dont think an emergency service is an isolated issue, this shows that despite your figures all is not as rosy as you think, nor is it rosy in Redcar.
mmmm owe you £50 ??? so you lied, the bet was originally, to a charity of our choice, mine was st lukes hospice, yours was ... the Stevo xmas fund.
If you read what i wrote, the shoulder injury was a pre existing condition, so as you should know would not be covered under insurance, obviously the NHS isnt in as good a health as you bang on about either.
Redcar is not good new obviously, but when where is massive oversupply in the market and the companies making steel cant sustain prodiction becase they cant sell the stuff, what are they meant to do? Nothing to do with governments, its market conditions. And despite this, unemployment is still down overall. All very well to pick on individual pieces of bad news but there are clearly more pieces of good news given the overall unemployment situation. You have a habit of picking on individual cases and using them to argue that it's all bad. Doesnt work, especially when the overall numbers dont support your case."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
It's only depressing if you're a leftie
Having problems finding something to back up your claim? I wonder why?
Don't remember that. Link?The New Old Labour reaction to the budget surplus was just farcical. First they thought we'll try to look responsible and agree to it. Then they realised they had to look anti-austerity for their supporter and so opposed a piece of basic financial common sense, that countries need to live within their means. But of course it's fine for the most of the people who want this because they are generally not the ones who have to pay for it in the end :roll:
Corbyn then makes it even worse by saying the McDonnell needs to defend the position. Amateurs.
Given that it was a labour policy which the Tories originally opposed then suddenly came around to it when they realised they could use it for political gain I'd say it is ass hattery of the highest order and will be given as much priority as Cameron's pledge to reduce immigration by 10, 000 (Fail) and Osbournes to reduce the deficit (Fail)
If it was Labour policy why are they now opposing it?
Not even looking, I read it so often that I have to conclude that you are willfully not reading articles about it...
As I said to someone up thread, I'm happy to own my dissallusion. If I wasnt ill I wouldnt be reading this. It's one of the most depressing threads on BR - and we had a 50 page thread about the moon landings being faked...
Take my advice and don't read it."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
If someone gets laid off from a skilled job and ends up stacking shelves at Tesco then the figures will be even.And despite this, unemployment is still down overall. All very well to pick on individual pieces of bad news but there are clearly more pieces of good news given the overall unemployment situation. You have a habit of picking on individual cases and using them to argue that it's all bad. Doesnt work, especially when the overall numbers dont support your case.
That person's quality of life won't be the same.
Nor will the tax income.
This Country is going to rat shit (auto edit, not my phrase) outside of the London/SE bubble. Return on investment. If all investment is in London/SE then that is where you will get results. It will drag you down eventually. Unless you are going for independence.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Another common leftie myth I see peddled on here is that the whole of the UK is going badly apart from London. Not sure how the overall rates of growth are possible if that is the case. True, London has outperformed most other areas but thats not to say that they are doing badly.
Maybe someone should try some facts? Tricky one that because it often sits uneasily with their poliitcal beliefs."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
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Maybe someone should try some facts? Tricky one that because it often sits uneasily with their poliitcal beliefs.
2 facts:
The productivity of the UK economy is worse than a lot of other similar European nations?
Even if the other regions are seeing some job creation, London massively outstrips the other regions. Additionally, just looking at the number of jobs created is only one indicator of how well the economy is serving society in general. No good having a load of highly educated people with McJobs (not that this is necessarily what is happening).
A general economic opinion:
Economies go up and down, politicians like to claim that they are responsible for things going well, but in reality they don't have much control. Over the last term of government, the tories (and lib dems) oversaw an economy that was left behind in terms of productivity, fortunately for them they were able to point to some positive growth figures.
A general political opinion:
The tories just don't seem to be doing a good job, they've seemingly managed to convince everyone that the economy isn't the just the most important thing, it's the only thing, they've also persuaded everyone that national debt is the same as personal debt. Which has worked well for them, unfortunately, it's meant their record elsewhere doesn't get as much scrutiny as it deserves, our energy policy for example, is a right mess and almost everyone in the engineering business agrees that our new nuclear power plant is not going to be a success. Add to that the lack of progress on HS2, lack of progress on another runway for heathrow/gatwick and actually you get a government that is failing to perform on big projects...You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
^^^ Not to mention all those p1ssed off junior doctors and the teachers leaving the profession in droves.0
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Missing the point completely.Another common leftie myth I see peddled on here is that the whole of the UK is going badly apart from London. Not sure how the overall rates of growth are possible if that is the case. True, London has outperformed most other areas but thats not to say that they are doing badly.
Maybe someone should try some facts? Tricky one that because it often sits uneasily with their poliitcal beliefs.
Having a job is entirely different from having a well paid job, far less a good job.
In the Tory World 1000 people on minimum wage is the same as than 750 people on £100k and 250 on minimum wage.
Eh, no.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Having problems finding something to back up your claim? I wonder why?
Don't remember that. Link?The New Old Labour reaction to the budget surplus was just farcical. First they thought we'll try to look responsible and agree to it. Then they realised they had to look anti-austerity for their supporter and so opposed a piece of basic financial common sense, that countries need to live within their means. But of course it's fine for the most of the people who want this because they are generally not the ones who have to pay for it in the end :roll:
Corbyn then makes it even worse by saying the McDonnell needs to defend the position. Amateurs.
Given that it was a labour policy which the Tories originally opposed then suddenly came around to it when they realised they could use it for political gain I'd say it is ass hattery of the highest order and will be given as much priority as Cameron's pledge to reduce immigration by 10, 000 (Fail) and Osbournes to reduce the deficit (Fail)
If it was Labour policy why are they now opposing it?
Though when a rather fun example of it drops into my twitter feed I'm not above posting it anyway. George Osbourne on Gordon Brown's fiscal charter - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/10/16/past-george-osborne-attacks-present-george-osborne-for-fiscal-u-turn_n_8310654.html?1444990989
#BurnWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
You didnt make your point very well then.
Missing the point completely.Another common leftie myth I see peddled on here is that the whole of the UK is going badly apart from London. Not sure how the overall rates of growth are possible if that is the case. True, London has outperformed most other areas but thats not to say that they are doing badly.
Maybe someone should try some facts? Tricky one that because it often sits uneasily with their poliitcal beliefs.
Having a job is entirely different from having a well paid job, far less a good job.
In the Tory World 1000 people on minimum wage is the same as than 750 people on £100k and 250 on minimum wage.
Eh, no.
Show me some evidence about this 'tory world' ? And are you saying that a Labour government can somehow guarantee that jobs created will be well paid ones?
Aside from the point that Corbyns non business friendly attitude is likely to discourage job creation. At which point you may want to consider whether a minimum wage job is better than being on unemployment benefit."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
You didnt make your point very well then.
Show me some evidence about this 'tory world' ? And are you saying that a Labour government can somehow guarantee that jobs created will be well paid ones?
Aside from the point that Corbyns non business friendly attitude is likely to discourage job creation. At which point you may want to consider whether a minimum wage job is better than being on unemployment benefit.
The way you and the tories bang on about this, you d think we were back in some 50's style boom.
How many of these jobs are going to people who are unemployed and how many are going to recent arrivals? jobseeker claiment numbers are hardly falling despite the fact its pretty easy to moved onto a benefit or into a v shorterm job that distorts the figures.
this country is mess, we cant even afford to build 2 power stations without risking our national security and getting the chinese to build it, Osbourne/Cameron are dangerous fools.0 -
You didnt make your point very well then.
Show me some evidence about this 'tory world' ? And are you saying that a Labour government can somehow guarantee that jobs created will be well paid ones?
I thought this was pretty straightforward, and to the point.If someone gets laid off from a skilled job and ends up stacking shelves at Tesco then the figures will be even.
That person's quality of life won't be the same.
Nor will the tax income.
I don't claim that Labour is the answer, but anyone claiming that this Country is in good shape based on employment figures is deluding themselves.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Did any of you see the woman on question time all but reduced to tears at the cuts to working tax credits and the devastating effect they will have on her and her family. I feel for her in one respect, however, she voted for them. Perhaps she believed all the sh1t on tv demonising benefits claimants without realising she was one herself.
She voted tory at the last election but I don't think she will next time. There will be many like her, not saying they will vote labour but they will turn against the tories.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
And Corbyns lot aren't?You didnt make your point very well then.
Show me some evidence about this 'tory world' ? And are you saying that a Labour government can somehow guarantee that jobs created will be well paid ones?
Aside from the point that Corbyns non business friendly attitude is likely to discourage job creation. At which point you may want to consider whether a minimum wage job is better than being on unemployment benefit.
The way you and the tories bang on about this, you d think we were back in some 50's style boom.
How many of these jobs are going to people who are unemployed and how many are going to recent arrivals? jobseeker claiment numbers are hardly falling despite the fact its pretty easy to moved onto a benefit or into a v shorterm job that distorts the figures.
this country is mess, we cant even afford to build 2 power stations without risking our national security and getting the chinese to build it, Osbourne/Cameron are dangerous fools. So much delusion... "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
If your point had been clear I would have got it first time. Never mind.You didnt make your point very well then.
Show me some evidence about this 'tory world' ? And are you saying that a Labour government can somehow guarantee that jobs created will be well paid ones?
I thought this was pretty straightforward, and to the point.If someone gets laid off from a skilled job and ends up stacking shelves at Tesco then the figures will be even.
That person's quality of life won't be the same.
Nor will the tax income.
I don't claim that Labour is the answer, but anyone claiming that this Country is in good shape based on employment figures is deluding themselves.
Never said employment was the only indicator. Economic growth, wage growth also healthy, inflation low. Possibly not all but that taken together is a good indicator. Luckily the lefties won't get a chance to spoil it for a long time."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
