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Not a question of not liking the answer. It's rather worrying that you think that are not unfit. Exactly what would a hard left politician need to say or do for you think that they were unfit to govern? :roll:You were very quick to dodge the original point and you continue to do so. Clearly I'm on to something here.
Yes or no. ATFQ.
I have answered the question. You just don't like the answer.
No, I don't think that it shows they are unfit to govern in the current British political system. If there were some other party full of the pure and the innocent, I think that some of them probably wouldn't be fit to serve. That, however, is not the case.
So there, pretty much the same as my last post. I don't agree with some of the things they say, but I'll be deciding which way to vote in 2020 based on the policies put forward by the parties and the extent to which I believe they'll abide by their promises.
If Tory ministers were on record as saying something of a similar hard line nature along the lines of smashing the workers or inciting violence against labour targets, the lefties would be all over them with self righteous cries of indignation and calls for resignations. And yet people like McDonnell can say things that are criminal offences - e.g. incitement to riot, incitement to violence (never mind showing that they are completely unfit to be responsible for running this country) and you just shrug your shoulders and say that there's worse around in other parties. Really?
And BTW two wrongs don't make a right
I wouldn't let McDonnnell govern a p1ss up in a brewery - he'd probably try to nationalise it. "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Its all very well saying he said that or she said this but the fact is, actions speaks louder than words and before i will judge Corbyn and his team, i ll give them chance to prove them selves, remember Steve - unlike me, you voted for him, so no good now saying all this is it?
you should perhaps have voted more wisely IF you are concerned he might get into power? if your not concerned then why do you drag this thread up over and over.0 -
Not a question of not liking the answer. It's rather worrying that you think that are not unfit. Exactly what would a hard left politician need to say or do for you think that they were unfit to govern? :roll:
To be honest, I don't have the time at the moment to go and check the actual words in context. Your source is the Daily Telegraph, and if they told me it was raining outside, I'd expect to look out of the window and see bright sunshine. They've told so many lies before on so many subjects that I just don't trust them.If Tory ministers were on record as saying something of a similar hard line nature along the lines of smashing the workers or inciting violence against labour targets, the lefties would be all over them with self righteous cries of indignation and calls for resignations. And yet people like McDonnell can say things that are criminal offences - e.g. incitement to riot, incitement to violence (never mind showing that they are completely unfit to be responsible for running this country) and you just shrug your shoulders and say that there's worse around in other parties. Really?
Who is fit to govern then? The parties that take our nation into illegal wars? The parties that test the health effects of nuclear and chemical weapons on unwitting troops and then deny them compensation for decades? The parties that make misleading public statements about the safety of British beef? The party which (if the allegations turn out to be true) ignores warnings about high levels of dangerous emissions? Why is that any better? Will you just shrug your shoulders and vote Tory again in 2020?
Do you think that the right has never supported the use of state violence against the left?
I don't support any of the major parties, I'm a believer in participative democracy, and see the elections as just changing one centralised clique for another, but if I had to cast the deciding vote, I'd go for Labour. Not because I have any particular love of them, but because I feel the alternative is so much worse. The Tories are the party who have made sure that when my boys get to school, they might not get qualified teachers to teach them. They are the parties that go to the EU with misleading information about the effects of neonicotinoids on bee populations. They are the party that had a climate change denier heading DEFRA. All those are, in my opinion, far worse than anything I've seen from Corbyn and his team.0 -
Right, now I've got a bit more time...
If any politician, Labour or otherwise, has been caught breaking the law in the way that you are suggesting, they should be prosecuted. It would surprise me if a politician did come out and suggest violence, though. These are experienced activists and are expert are keeping just to the right side of the law, just as journalists are experts at keeping just the right side of libel laws.
So if anyone has any evidence that he was breaking the law and inciting violence, I suggest you report it as a crime to the police.0 -
Finchy, not wanting to get between you and Stevo in your little spat and going off topic, but was it not the case that until sometime in the eighties you didn't need a 'teaching qualification' to become a teacher if you held a degree. The teaching qualification was only for those who didn't have a degree.
When I went through the seventies I had some brilliant teachers, the best probably being my maths teacher, Doc. Evans, PhD. He had come from an industrial, not an education background and was outstanding.
Having attended every parents' evening for both my kids in the nineties and noughties, I found some of the 'qualified ' teachers to be utterly useless.
I don't think it the case that our qualified teachers turn out better educated kids than prior to the necessity of holding such a qualification. I only have anecdotal evidence though, such as hearing from a science teacher that some texts that were studied at 'O' Level are now being used for 'A' Level studies. But that is matter for a different thread.
Finchy, don't run away with the idea that a qualification guarantees competence. I am sure that you, and probably most people on here, have met highly qualified people who have turned out to be hopeless in the real world.
Now, back to your spat. Sorry for interrupting.
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Finchy, not wanting to get between you and Stevo in your little spat and going off topic, but was it not the case that until sometime in the eighties you didn't need a 'teaching qualification' to become a teacher if you held a degree. The teaching qualification was only for those who didn't have a degree.
When I went through the seventies I had some brilliant teachers, the best probably being my maths teacher, Doc. Evans, PhD. He had come from an industrial, not an education background and was outstanding.
Having attended every parents' evening for both my kids in the nineties and noughties, I found some of the 'qualified ' teachers to be utterly useless.
I don't think it the case that our qualified teachers turn out better educated kids than prior to the necessity of holding such a qualification. I only have anecdotal evidence though, such as hearing from a science teacher that some texts that were studied at 'O' Level are now being used for 'A' Level studies. But that is matter for a different thread.
Finchy, don't run away with the idea that a qualification guarantees competence. I am sure that you, and probably most people on here, have met highly qualified people who have turned out to be hopeless in the real world.
Now, back to your spat. Sorry for interrupting.
Not a spat. I just disagree with most of what Stevo says, nothing more than that and certainly nothing personal.
For the teachers, it's not really about the qualification, it's about the training. If the training produces crap teachers, then the teacher training colleges should be toughened up. Nobody ever gets worse at the job following a period of training with a competent instructor. What's going on in our schools today is that under-qualified teaching assistants are being used to teach classes. I saw many cases of that when I was tutoring and to be frank, they didn't have a clue about teaching and didn't know how to control their classes.0 -
Exactly what would a hard left politician need to say or do for you think that they were unfit to govern? :roll:
Oh, and to answer this question, probably something along the lines of:
"Stalin was a great man and we must strive to re-create the workers' paradise that was the USSR" would be enough to make me puke. I can't stand left wingers who think that the likes of Stalin were allies just because he justified his actions by saying they were in the name of "the workers" (while simultaneously preventing the workers of the Soviet Union from ever having any democratic bodies to represent them).0 -
for all Corbyns and McDonnels faults, they have yet to galvanise 1000's of junior doctors to ballot for strike action and to march on Parliament and not for pay or working hours but for patient safety, in other words our safety.
the tories clearly are not "fit to Govern"0 -
for all Corbyns and McDonnels faults, they have yet to galvanise 1000's of junior doctors to ballot for strike action and to march on Parliament and not for pay or working hours but for patient safety, in other words our safety.
the tories clearly are not "fit to Govern"
Yeah, this is the sort of thing that determines the way I will vote. When I broke my leg, I was lying on a hospital bed in absolute agony (the doctors said they only get a few breaks that bad in a year) for four hours before I could get into surgery, due to a lack of staff. When my friend got knocked over by a car, he was in hospital within 15 minutes and then in surgery after about 30 minutes of initial assessments. Then again, I broke my leg in England, whereas he broke his in the far wealthier country of Slovakia. :roll:0 -
Very good (if very punchy) article in the FT on Corbynists.
Doesn't hold much back....
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fb1ad42e-65c2-11e5-a28b-50226830d644.html#axzz3n408a000
Some great quotes in there.0 -
Nope, not concerned just airing the facts about what they have said and done. Yours and finchys view (or maybe reluctance to admit) that they are somehow no worse than people carrying out their jobs to balance the books speaks volumes. People of a more mainstream political viewpoint will draw their own conclusions.Its all very well saying he said that or she said this but the fact is, actions speaks louder than words and before i will judge Corbyn and his team, i ll give them chance to prove them selves, remember Steve - unlike me, you voted for him, so no good now saying all this is it?
you should perhaps have voted more wisely IF you are concerned he might get into power? if your not concerned then why do you drag this thread up over and over."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Nope, not concerned just airing the facts about what they have said and done. Yours and finchys view (or maybe reluctance to admit) that they are somehow no worse than people carrying out their jobs to balance the books speaks volumes. People of a more mainstream political viewpoint will draw their own conclusions.Its all very well saying he said that or she said this but the fact is, actions speaks louder than words and before i will judge Corbyn and his team, i ll give them chance to prove them selves, remember Steve - unlike me, you voted for him, so no good now saying all this is it?
you should perhaps have voted more wisely IF you are concerned he might get into power? if your not concerned then why do you drag this thread up over and over.
what have they done? according to you, they are unelectable, so where is this power they somehow hold to xxxx us all over?
as for the BMA, whats that go to do with "balancing the books" ? perhaps if hunt wasnt such an arrogant basterd he d be able to get more out people?
maybe there is a man management course he could do ? or save us all some money and resign?0 -
Nope, not concerned just airing the facts about what they have said and done. Yours and finchys view (or maybe reluctance to admit) that they are somehow no worse than people carrying out their jobs to balance the books speaks volumes. People of a more mainstream political viewpoint will draw their own conclusions.Its all very well saying he said that or she said this but the fact is, actions speaks louder than words and before i will judge Corbyn and his team, i ll give them chance to prove them selves, remember Steve - unlike me, you voted for him, so no good now saying all this is it?
you should perhaps have voted more wisely IF you are concerned he might get into power? if your not concerned then why do you drag this thread up over and over.
Well, that's done a good job of ignoring all of the points I made above.0 -
The more I read in the news, the more I'll be surprised if the current incumbents get reelected.
Labour really have to make a mess of this not to get elected.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I give Corbyn no chance of leading Labour to an election victory. It's a shame but if he sticks to his guns over our nuclear deterrent and immigration far from winning back traditional Labour voters he will shed more. I don't see where he makes up that shortfall and more.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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Corbyn's position on the nuclear deterrent is already causing some disquiet in the party. Will be interesting to see how he will navigate the process whereby Labour determine their policy on this contentious topic as it won't be JC alone deciding it.0
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No-one enjoy that FT article?
Aw shame.
It's behind a paywall. Did you have a look at that link I posted about Britain's GDP figures? It only takes a couple of minutes to read, but it's quite interesting.0 -
Hopefully if Comrade Corbyn comes to power, he'll have enemies of the people like this put up against the wall.0
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Re antipathy towards landlords, it basically boils down to this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
Essentially seeking rent for non-wealth creating assets creates a misallocation of resources.
That's tolerable when the rent is small. When rents collectively become very high, so does the misallocation.
This is ultimately why housing is so important. We all need it and we all pay for it, so it makes sense to have it effective and efficient.
See: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11925071/Revealed-The-3bn-cost-of-Londons-housing-crisis.html0 -
the new affordable housing will make all the difference, with annual salary of 70k (in the capitol and at present costs) needed to purchase one IF they ever get built.
Of course extending the right to buy schemes to HA, will decrease rented accomodation.
so whats the betting Cameron takes another Corbyn policy and introduces some form of rent control before 2020 ?0 -
Rent control doesn't change the fundamental problem - rising demand, stagnant supply.
Seems the Tories are intent on providing policies that generally favour the South East and Theresa May admitted herself there was little she can do with immigration so the solution is to improve supply. It's fairly simple. build more housing. Ideally, housing that helps people at the lower end who are currently being priced out.0 -
Getting back on topic....
Didn't take long, as predicted:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34518777
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-faces-revolt-over-economic-u-turn-as-mp-storms-out-of-total-fing-shambles-meeting-a6691511.html
To quote one Labour MP, 'a ****ing shambles'
How long before it's civil war?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Momentum - the new Militant Tendency?
http://labourlist.org/2015/10/momentum-nice-organising-shame-about-the-politics/
http://peoplesmomentum.com/0 -
Labour are going through the transitional period after electing a new leader.Getting back on topic....
Didn't take long, as predicted:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34518777
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-faces-revolt-over-economic-u-turn-as-mp-storms-out-of-total-fing-shambles-meeting-a6691511.html
To quote one Labour MP, 'a ****ing shambles'
How long before it's civil war?
Conservatives will go through the same thing.
They will go through it closer to the election. Oh.
There will be less time for them to resolve their differences. Oh dear.
Look at the cabinet for potential leaders. Oh deary dear.
The Conservative optimism can be viewed as ignorance, arrogance or bluff.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it is bluff.
Edit:- I meant to add that the economy will be worse. Oh deary, deary dear.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Getting back on topic....
Didn't take long, as predicted:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34518777
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-faces-revolt-over-economic-u-turn-as-mp-storms-out-of-total-fing-shambles-meeting-a6691511.html
To quote one Labour MP, 'a ****ing shambles'
How long before it's civil war?
Outwardly you are correct but look a little closer, Osbourne is making a promise on debt that is clearly irresponsible and possibly dishonest, no one knows the future.
it is just like his promise back in 2010 to balance the books, he quickly rolled back on that or Camerons promise on immigration to be cut to the 10s of 1000s.... oh really?
they are even doing it now, with T May saying they will control immigration but cannot say how.
Labour are giving the impression of stupidity though and they need to sharpen their act or the spotlight will always be on them and never on the tories
well, until the in/out EU referendum debate starts to heat up!0 -
Voting against this Tory bill has to be the right decision, it's little more than a political publicity stunt and the mistake was ever to suggest they would support it. Still better to get out now than to have to do so at the next election.
Both major parties could face internal division in this parliament. Corbyn doesn't represent the PLP and there will be a lot of people in there who are used to being influential who will find their views marginalised. I don't think this Momentum movement sounds that significant, there have always been a plethora of groups within Labour, but who knows how it might develop. I can't see it being another Militant Tendency because that group did not reflect a populist groundswell - if Momentum does become big I think it'll be more a movement that does represent Labour Party members.
The Tories might have their problems too though - they have big divisions over Europe and as noted the contest to become the next leader is not going to be good natured. Has Cameron actually said when he is going to step down as seeing out the full term and letting someone else fight the election as a brand new leader looks to be a risky strategy to me.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Labour shambles and disunity is real and now. And Corbyns lot have only been in charge of the party for a few weeks . I'll give them a year at most. Tory disunity is something some of you are hoping for in future. Two very different things.
The New Old Labour reaction to the budget surplus was just farcical. First they thought we'll try to look responsible and agree to it. Then they realised they had to look anti-austerity for their supporter and so opposed a piece of basic financial common sense, that countries need to live within their means. But of course it's fine for the most of the people who want this because they are generally not the ones who have to pay for it in the end :roll:
Corbyn then makes it even worse by saying the McDonnell needs to defend the position. Amateurs."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
The New Old Labour reaction to the budget surplus was just farcical. First they thought we'll try to look responsible and agree to it. Then they realised they had to look anti-austerity for their supporter and so opposed a piece of basic financial common sense, that countries need to live within their means. But of course it's fine for the most of the people who want this because they are generally not the ones who have to pay for it in the end :roll:
Corbyn then makes it even worse by saying the McDonnell needs to defend the position. Amateurs.
Given that it was a labour policy which the Tories originally opposed then suddenly came around to it when they realised they could use it for political gain I'd say it is ass hattery of the highest order and will be given as much priority as Cameron's pledge to reduce immigration by 10, 000 (Fail) and Osbournes to reduce the deficit (Fail)We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Don't remember that. Link?The New Old Labour reaction to the budget surplus was just farcical. First they thought we'll try to look responsible and agree to it. Then they realised they had to look anti-austerity for their supporter and so opposed a piece of basic financial common sense, that countries need to live within their means. But of course it's fine for the most of the people who want this because they are generally not the ones who have to pay for it in the end :roll:
Corbyn then makes it even worse by saying the McDonnell needs to defend the position. Amateurs.
Given that it was a labour policy which the Tories originally opposed then suddenly came around to it when they realised they could use it for political gain I'd say it is ass hattery of the highest order and will be given as much priority as Cameron's pledge to reduce immigration by 10, 000 (Fail) and Osbournes to reduce the deficit (Fail)
If it was Labour policy why are they now opposing it?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
